SPF Reform Proposals and Discussion

[fearedbliss]

@maxicek That's a good question. Basically I used to use ATMA and GoMule before but I really much preferred just relying on the game itself when doing things, and it's just less external dependencies I would need to have. At the moment I just need to install D2, get Singling since everything that is FAM and other fixes are already consolidated, version switcher, and glide. To further encapsulate this, I made the complete collection so that actually already has [All D2 versions from 1.00 - 1.14d for both Classic/Expansion if Available, Version Switcher, Singling, Glide]. With that being created, it's much faster for someone to get started to play. Obviously BVS (switcher) has to be an external application so there is no way around that since we need to be able to switch core game files with the appropriate ones, and Glide.. well that also needs to be external so that the game can start up from the beginning with 3dfx rendering. But for any other tasks that could be done with the regular Diablo 2 game (Muling via LAN, or using -seed), I would much prefer to just use the game itself.

I've thought about adding support to GoMule for pre 1.10 since ATMA is antiquated and I've done a good amount of research on the character formats for 1.10 (Version 96), 1.09 (Version 92), 1.08, (Version 89), 1.07 (Version 87), and 1.00-1.06 (Version 71). There are not many resources on things before 1.09 so it's difficult to implement. Even for my Alpaca character information dumper, 1.00-1.09 only have partial character dumping support. So it would take significant reverse engineering of the character file format structure to produce. I know ATMA has 1.07-1.09 support, not sure if it supports 1.00-1.06, but it may well definitely do.

But ultimately after my journey with looking at PlugY code, GoMule code, I decided that in order for people to be more independent and be closer to what Blizzard created, and also to be able to migrate to a new version faster, modifications to the game should be minimized, and the less dependencies we create for ourselves the better. If 1.15 comes out, I can say with confidence that I can implement any missing features that Blizzard didn't include in the new version, to that version (Like if Blizzard doesn't fix CPU problem, I can fix it again in that new version). However with something like GoMule or PlugY.. if blizzard changed the character format a lot, GoMule would completely break, and it would take significant time to understand the new character file format given that Blizzard doesn't disclose any of it. And as for PlugY.. I mean we already see what happened with 1.14. 1.14 and 1.13 aren't really different, they actually use the same exact patch file. The only difference is that Blizzard merged all of their libraries together into 1 big Game.exe file in order to break all of the existing bots and stuff. I'm kinda happy they did that haha. It makes my Singling work easier since I don't have to look at like 19+ dlls now . But the point is that PlugY is stuck in 1.13 and since I spent a month rewriting core parts of PlugY into my PlugY fork (Which I don't even use anymore but it was a good technical learning experience), it would take a lot of work to find all of the places needed for PlugY to be updated. And also if people aren't using my re-architected fork, they would need to re-architect plugy first in whatever way they see fit so that instead of having 19+ dlls, they only have 1 Game.exe that they make all of their changes in. It's a nightmare. So at the moment, anyone who is using PlugY, is guaranteed to be in a max version of 1.13.

Thanks for the question, I hope I answered it well and if you have any other questions, let me know!

 

[Grape1]

Interesting discussion.

Only thing I have somewhat strong opinion about are the map seeds. I'm fine if someone needs them for muling purposes, but otherwise it's a big NO from me.

Finding good maps is a big part of the SP experience for me. I don't want anyone's seed, nor do I want to give any away, even between my own characters. That'd be boring.

I'd greatly enjoy if GoMule could calculate how perfect my grail /eth grail is. I'm too lazy to update the excel I once picked from the perfect grail thread. GoMule for older versions would be super indeed, but that may be hard to do.

 

[pharphis]

Actually, that's a great idea for a gomule addition. Having gomule scan your items and choosing the optimal unique of the many you have. Ethereal Edge is impossible to be motivated to calculate each choice of the dozens or whatever I have.

 

[fearedbliss]

@Grape I agree with you on the not sharing map seeds. My original proposal definitely had that I am in favor of map seeds for muling purposes, and for any reason as long as it's for personal use (Building a collection of personal seeds that won't be shared) or if the community wants that could be shared. But during the past few days and also listening to people in this thread, I don't think sharing seeds should be allowed (Only for a tournament purpose where the tournament host might say: we are having a tournament and this tournament will have everyone start in this exact map). Sharing map seeds would homogenize the game too much and it would be bad for the community overall. Using map seeds for personal use (Having your own LK map seeds, Baal/Andy/Meph map seeds, etc) I'm not so much against since everyone's "collection" would be unique to themselves. But even this reason I feel isn't really a necessary rule change and I'm fine if nobody does this (including myself). So pretty much using seeds for accidental loss of the map, muling purposes, or if you need to MP with someone and don't want to lose the map after your MP session is over, is fine with me. I don't want to have to decide whether or not I want to play with my friends, or keep my map. It seems unjust to have to pick your map over having MP fun with friends.

@Grape @pharphis You guys are overestimating my mathematical abilities ;D.

@TheNix I noticed you mentioned that in 1.12 you did your own Color Rune Mod and also did Color Gems as well. I've done this before as well where I colored my gems dark green (Not green since that's the set color). Would people be against Color Rune Mod incorporating Gems as well? Not sure. Are you Yellow-Red color blind? I have a person close in my family circle that is YR color blind as well. When he drives he relies on traffic light positions in order to tell Stop from Slow down.

 

[TheNix]

@fearedbliss , I'm not colourblind, but I have a slight colour deficiency and I find it difficult to differentiate between similar colours. The reason I made my mod was because I had (and still do to a lesser extent) great difficulty telling the difference between rares (yellow), uniques (gold) and sometimes even ethereal/socketed (grey) items. It was not so bad if all three drops at the same time so I had direct comparisons, but if there was an isolated drop I had to pick it up and look at it. I made a mistake earlier when I said that I changed rare items red; the runes were red, the rares were purple and the gems orange.
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Edit:
@all When it comes to maps seeds I'm not quite as strict about it as I made it seem on my post. I would love a library of seeds to choose from (a good pit one, a good AT one, a good Meph one, etc.), but frankly I'm too disorganised and lazy to do so. On top of that I don't think I've ever been so taken by a seed that I would want to immortalise it. The problem comes when a whole community is doing this, it does not pass the sniff test!

 

[Dezrok]

I sort of feel that many of the issues that have been raised in this thread aren't all that important to many of the people using the SPF? And while there are certainly some people passionate about some of the issues, there doesn't appear to be a ground swell of support for most of them and they possibly aren't really the issues driving the SPF.

For example, some of the changes only relate to trading, yet hardly anyone trades on the SPF anymore. If there was a large group of traders asking for these changes (or a large group of people who would trade if these changes were made) then that makes it an issue worth discussing. And I would expect that we would see that large group of people all being vocal in this thread.

Likewise the MP issues. If a large group of MP players were passionate enough to seek the changes then they would be worth considering.

But from looking at the posts, likes and rather ambiguous survey results this doesn't actually look like what is going on. My feeling is that if you can't get at least 20-30 people strongly supporting an issue, then it isn't really worth taking to the Mods (or the rest of the forum in the absence of active Mods).

NB: One of the MP proposed changes would allow for limited backwards time travel. Only allowing forward time travel has been a pretty integral part of the SPF for a long time and there seems to have been some pretty good reasons for the decision, so a bit of thought might need to go into other impacts of this proposed change?

The 1.07.41 Beta thing ....???? I know there were discussions about this on the forum before and I thought there were reasons why this wan't allowed. Once again I'd like to see a large group of people asking for this before it actually becomes an issue for consideration. It hardly seems like a major issue for the forum.

The issue of map seeds and adding in-game ilvl seem to be driven by one or two people who don't want to use GoMule. This doesn't quite seem like the right way to go about things to me. The forum allows for muling to happen without needing to use map seeds and for people to determine ilvl without having to resort to additional modding of the game. If one or two people don't like the option that everyone else is happy with then that is just a bit tough.

There doesn't seem to be a ban on having colored runes so I'm not sure why this is an issue. CRM and RRM are already allowed. If these mods don't work on pre-1.13 version of the game then submit a version of the mod that does work on earlier versions and that could be assessed by the Moderators as to whether it would become FAM or not. My understanding of how mod approvals work is that it is individual mods that are approved not the purpose for which they are made. EG: Just because GoMule shows ilvl doesn't mean that every mod that shows ilvl will automatically be approved as FAM.

There also doesn't seem to be any rule banning ladder only runewords in 1.10. If the current RWM doesn't do this, that isn't the same as a forum rule not allowing it. If a mod was created that did allow ladder only runewords in 1.10 then that would be for the Mods to assess its suitability for FAM. It feels like some of these issues are asking for pre-approval for mods to be made?

I guess there feels like a bit of a schism in philosophies around mods. The modders seem to feel that once there is a FAM mod that does a particular function, then mods that also have that function should automatically be FAM as well. The historical SPF philosophy seems to have been more along the lines of allowing the minimum number of mods to allow player utility, so once a mod is created that meets a particular player need, then there is no longer a need to approve more mods with the same functionality.

Discussion of Mods - This is actually a topic that gets raised and discussed reasonably often on the forum, so it is not quite right to say that any debate about it is squashed. But there is always someone who wasn't part of the previous discussions who feels that their opinion isn't being listened to, and so it will continue to be a topic of discussion and frustration. I can understand why old timers get a bit annoyed with people who bring it up, they have been over the arguments many, many times. If there was real interest in D2 modding then surely the D2 forums that focus on modding would be getting more activity? Why not take this keen group of modders and join The Phrozen Keep and revitalize that forum? It seem like there is already a place that exists that meets your needs? Being a member of more than one forum doesn't seem like a big deal? Adding a sub-forum that has fundamentally different values to the existing main forum does seem like quite a big deal.

Oh yeah, and the not being allowed to even mention the name PlugY is just silly (we've already had the Voldemort reference), although with no active Moderator this doesn't seem to be an issue anymore.

ATMA bugging and HC to SC transfers - the dinosaurs we have inherited. I'd be more interested in discussion of these as issues if they were treated individually, rather than lumped in with all the other stuff which feels like a mass of change for the sake of changing things deal.

Anyway, my thoughts on these things, for what they are worth. If these are the most pressing issues facing the SPF then it feels like the forum is in a pretty good place.

I do think there are much more important things we could be thinking about (with all respect to the people who ARE passionate about the above topics). Things like:

• Will the Zod God be dethroned and if so, how many more items will Grape make before this happens?
• Will jiansonz deed a tourney character and if so, what build and what merc will it be using?
• How long before PhineasB has a sept of untwinked 99ers?
• Who will find the next Tyreal's and will it be in a MFO?
• Gripphon's MF efficiency!!!
• Where did Kitteh find that photo of a Hammerdin and where did they get their paper plates?

 

[pharphis]

Zod God will only be dethroned if I ever find another zod (or 2, 3? I can't even remember how far behind I am)

 

[ffs]

@Dezrok, @Grape and everyone else chipping in -- thanks for doing so. I just wanted to make sure this is not missed:

There is also a survey here for which @DiabloTwoinDC has put in the effort to compile and list the issues discussed in here, and more importantly the different opinions on them that have emerged so far from this discussion. The survey will be open and updated for a while in order to get an overview of the different opinions within the community on these issues. Please do participate. More options in answering can be added if you feel the need for them, and if you want everything to stay as it is, there are appropriate answer options for that as well.

 

[fearedbliss]

Thanks @TheNix. I'll keep in mind this color combination.

 

[D2DC]

I don't want to have to decide whether or not I want to play with my friends, or keep my map. It seems unjust to have to pick your map over having MP fun with friends.

Good point! I will add that into the survey.

 

[D2DC]

Zod God will only be dethroned if I ever find another zod (or 2, 3? I can't even remember how far behind I am)

I'm telling you. Gripphon is lying in wait. Once @Grape gets to #6, Grip will post his Zod-God Sept thread!

 

[TheNix]

Thanks @TheNix. I'll keep in mind this color combination.

I only chosen these colours because they were the easiest to do, there's nothing special about them.

 

[D2DC]

I'd be more interested in discussion of these as issues if they were treated individually, rather than lumped in with all the other stuff which feels like a mass of change for the sake of changing things deal.

That's why I wanted to make the survey. If opinions are fairly split on an issue, I don't think anything should be done. As it would just create more division/dissent. I'm certainly not proposing a simple majority vote to make changes. But, like you said, if 20-30 people come out in favor of something and only 1 or 2 against. That should probably be taken to the mods. The PlugY reference seems like it's going to be a place to start?

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

A second thought on the sub-forum
So while it sounds like a good idea, it has been brought up that the Phrozen Keep isn't active so why would the sub-forum get any activity? Perhaps an easier and more simple solution would be to have a "sub-thread" i.e. a thread for people to post their items/characters/whatever. Whenever someone joins the forum and says "Hey guys I'm a legit SPer who quit Bnet awhile back and I use PlugY". Instead of driving them off, we can say "hey, that mod is only allowed under limit discussion. please stick to the dedicated 'Unsupported Mods' thread if you want to get support or post your stuff". So now we've not only kept another member around, but made sure they know the rules and where they can post their stuff.

Why I don't use muling programs
As ludicrous as this is to believe, I like to keep things as vanilla as possible. By vanilla however, I mean the actual experience of the game. I want to have D2 installed and be able to do everything I want to do right there in the game (just as if I were playing on battle.net). Before I rejoined the forums, basically everyone had to use third party software to play older versions. You couldn't just install and play; no, you had to go to an external website, download Daemon Tools (or other), install it, mess with the settings, and HOPE it works. It added that much of a nuisance and extra crap you had to install just to play the game. But thankfully Thyiad formally approved my No-CD cracks so we could add it to singling.

Muling programs are no different than the above scenario. Yet again, I have to go to another website, download their software, and hope it works. If it does, I have to hope it doesn't screw up or corrupt my character/items. ATMA has been known for not only the infamous "atma-bug" (akin to using Hero Editor) but also crashing and even corrupting items. GoMule was written much better, but I have my doubts as anything is prone to human error.

Then there's another issue: what If I'm using Linux? I don't like the direction Money-soft took Windows ever since 2000/98. I've put up with it long enough, but Windows 8 did it for me and eventually I'll be moving to Linux. Linux has an API addon known as "WINE" to allow me to run Windows programs (like Diablo II). Adding more software in the mix means I have to hope WINE is also compatible with Muling Programs and CD mounting software. By the way, Linux doesn't even support SecuRom, so good luck with that...

Anyway, I don't condemn users of muling programs anymore than PlugY. Both are convenient and add features people have wanted for a long time. It makes sense to many. But in this regard, both @fearedbliss and I are the minority here. I prefer to keep things simple, and the more software we have to rely on, the more issues are prone to happen.

 

[ioupain]

@GalaXyHaXz Thanks for explaining that - I've been thinking of moving to Linux in the not too distant future. Especially after Microsoft's recent announcement (which many people predicted) of Windows as a service. I hadn't considered the non-Windows OS issue for GoMule before.

 

[fearedbliss]

@GalaXyHaXz I'm a Gentoo Linux Developer and I definitely won't be using wine for playing games lol, I just want to sit at my computer and enjoy my life. Now what I would do (And what I do when I play on Linux) is just installing any of the countless type 2 (or even type 1 hypervisors if you are into that sort of thing) (VirtualBox, QEMU, KVM, Xen, etc) and just install windows XP or 7 on there. Then I can play D2. Diablo/Diablo II are so old that the bad 3d graphics support on Virtual Machines STILL let you play Diablo flawlessly haha. But that plan only works for games that are old. There are more complicated setups you can do if you want to still play natively on Linux (example: If game isn't supported on Linux you could -attempt-.. it's difficult but you can attempt installing a VM and using VGA Passthrough so you can literally pass in your entire graphic card completely into the VM. You will need two graphic cards for this obviously because 1 graphic card is for your main OS, and the other is for the VM. But this set up will allow you to install native drivers NVIDIA/Intel/AMD directly inside the VM and have 90%+ performance). The other option which is what I'm gonna do because I don't want to deal with this stuff and still want performance is to just have a small gaming computer on the side (With w/e crappy Windows OS aka Windows 10). This way I can still play games natively, but my concerns of privacy and security with Windows 8/10 won't be that bad since I can just lock that machine by itself on the network. My computer really only needs to be really powerful for games if anything, other tasks such as programming, reading, youtube, music don't require the latest NVIDIA GTX cards etc.

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

@fearedbliss While it would maintain better compatibility using a VM for various games/apps, WINE has received a considerable amount of work since ~2012. It has a Platinum rating with Diablo II (runs perfect out of the box), and I've also tested it. Since it's running natively, it uses less CPU than having a whole extra OS running in the background. Let's also not forget, you technically need a key to own a legal copy of Windows for VM usage.

WINE seems to have recently got Direct3D 11 support (hooray!). Not sure how good it is, but it's a step in the right direction. The more people move to Linux, the more it encourages native Linux development. But in the mean time, I like the idea of bridging the gap in a more compact fashion.

@ioupainmax Lol well that's no surprise. It seems the big changes with Microsoft started after Bill Gates went PT in 2006. I know Apple also seriously went downhill after Steve Jobs died. It's a shame really. They had no reason to change everything, people want an OS that stays out of their way and uses minimal resources. Windows 98 uses 10MB of ram and boots instantly on a modern PC...

Some 20 years of innovation!

 

[fearedbliss]

@GalaXyHaXz yup I keep track of the state of wine but I just like simplicity and having to compile wine, get all of the Microsoft redistributables installed inside of it, fonts, etc, it's a hassle and it sometimes doesn't even work. There are some groups like Play on Linux (or crossover Linux) that have tried to automate this by having profiles for games where they can automatically install and configure a game depending on which wine version has best compatibility for it. But as a technical person, I don't want to have to spend more time doing technical things where when I finally have time in the day to play, I just want to relax. I also own multiple retail copies of Windows that I own and not all of them are in use. Even the windows 7 ultimate copy that's running on my desktop is a retail copy I purchased for like $210 many many years ago. That was one of the main reasons I went with a retail copy vs the cheaper OEM options. I can just uninstall it from my physical desktop machine and use it in a VM.

I also don't even dual boot exactly for this simplicity philosophy. I don't like splitting my hard drive space, and I don't like making my bootloader configuration more complicated than needed. Each machine has its purpose.

But let's not get side tracked, I kinda hijacked my own thread haha. Back to the discussion, we can talk about the glories of Linux on Discord.

 

[Xios]

This was certainly an interesting read. Given that there seems to be some confusion, I also just recently read the rules (am I correct in saying this is the only official thread for the rules of the SPF, besides some retreading?) to see if I was missing something.

So that being said, unless I've zoned out scrolling through all this text, I don't see any mention of specific versions of RWM or ladder-only runewords being allowed or disallowed, it was mentioning them as a whole being legal. I also do not see any mention of the Rune Colouring Mod being disallowed, the post itself only mentions that it is "obsolete as of 1.13". So as far as I'm aware, neither of these are particularly noticeable issues, since I don't see where they are banned? Given that most people seem confused as to why these restrictions were there in the first place, I think the answer might actually be a "They're not." If I am wrong and it is in there, or there's multiple places the rules are posted, please let me know.

As to the rest of it:

Mod Discussion:
I think a number of good points have been made about this and its place on the forum. Personally, I enjoy testing out mods, I find it's a fun experience to see how certain tweaks can alter a game I've grown accustomed to, which is why I enjoyed trying out Vanilla Frosting, even if I think the way it was introduced could have been tempered. That said, I do believe there is validity that there is likely better places to discuss such things (PhrozenKeep or what have you) and that tucking it away somewhere else on this forum may only wind up being a token gesture due to its dubious longevity or alternatively due to fragmentation of the community. While I do think that discussing the notions of mods is interesting, I can also empathize with those who feel like they're being bombarded with strange and unfamiliar things. It does raise a bit of a strange predicament though, the only way to gauge the desire for something is to ask people or some very careful observations. If for example we were in a state where we currently had no modifications, and someone just invented GoMule, how would we want that to be introduced to the SPF, if at all? Similarly, what if GoMule was never made, because that person couldn't discuss the notion of it with others, and therefore didn't see the need for it, even if there was a demand for such a thing? Would we be okay with that? If you don't consider GoMule to be a mod, then change the example to activating ladder runes, but I hope the fundamental point I'm trying to get across is clear. We don't really know what might be the next thing people deem as important or imperative to have so I think at the very least discussing potential or theoretical modifications has its uses. In the same vein, I don't think dropping them on people without notice and then gauging opinions is the correct way to do it either, so there's a bit of give and take between discouraging innovation and forcing things upon people.

Either way, I do think even if a line is drawn somewhere about prohibiting mods, treating them like the Boogeyman is not the correct attitude in my opinion. Being able to be clear about topics like PlugY just helps for communication if someone new arrives and wants to know what is or isn't okay to have discussions on. You don't have to pretend something doesn't exist if you don't want to talk about it, after all.

Item Level Information:
Reading through the posts so far, most of the discussion seems to be questioning the advantage of implementing a thing, since it's information available on GoMule. Even if this is not the prevailing opinion, it's fairly clear that there does not seem to be a notion that this would give someone an unfair or distinct advantage, so I'm not really seeing a reason why this should be prohibited. As mentioned, most (all?) of ilvl information can be calculated, so if someone really wanted to log all their ilvls manually they could, it's not information that is shrouded from the player, and I don't think maliciously making them jump through those hoops for the satisfaction is a viable counterargument. I just feel like if the strongest argument against is simply that "I wouldn't use it personally." that mostly just leaves the people who would find it useful, no?

Trading in Older Versions:
I've personally never traded outside of Battle.net so I would be more keen to read the opinions of those who do. Some of the arguments I'm seeing so far seem to be that it's to ward against duping or other nefarious actions but I'm sure some may argue that punishing the many at the deeds of the few may be unfair. Ultimately I'm fairly unfamiliar and uninitiated with trading so I don't have much to say, although I will mention that there seems to be a strange justification on the various rules posted from a laymen's perspective. It would seem that the problem occurred with 1.00 to 1.06 dupes, as well as bringing items from Classic to LOD, which caused the banning of all trade below 1.11? I don't see why 1.07 to 1.10 of LOD (which exist) should be prohibited, if someone could explain that to an outsider as to why, or if that was a typo or some such.

1.07.41 Beta:
Rules as written, I don't see any real mention of what versions of D2 are and are not allowed, I suppose the sticking point here would be that it's technically not "official"? I don't think anyone would have a direct problem with playing the actual version, it'd be more what could come from it relating to Time Travel or Trading or what have you. Since I don't know anything about it that's all I could really say. Keep it self-contained and I'm sure it could be a useful bit of history.

Map Seeds:
I think the points made so far were fairly good ones, namely that if open sharing was allowed it could get rather degenerative if some sort of objectively best map of X was found. If the point was for personal use, there's obviously nothing physically stopping someone from doing this, but I think actively encouraging it may set a bad precedent. There is an interesting argument when it comes to muling however, as I presume most people using GoMule do not see that as circumventing or saving their map seed in which you would normally have to reset your map to transfer over items. Given the amount of discussion about map generation / saving being part of the gameplay experience, that's an interesting conflict to me, one that I don't think "Well just use GoMule yourself." is necessarily the correct answer for.

HC to SC Item Transfer:
I'm slightly surprised this rule actually exists. I see the reasoning behind it, where items could be seen as being "downgraded" from HC to SC, but given how fervently people seem to believe in the separation of Hardcore from its Softcore counterpart in other discussions, I find it curious that this logic worked. Ultimately I'm probably much more lukewarm on this than others, since I don't think it's something I'd feel compelled to do myself.

Minor Version Compatibility:
This would probably require some fine toothed combing through past versions. On paper (or rather, in the official D2 patch notes) there are some versions that have seemingly no differences in a SP context to one another, look at the notes for the various 1.09's for example. Yet the problem here is of course that Blizzard was not very thorough with its patch notes, so I don't feel confident in using that as the only point of comparison as to which versions should be allowed to intermingle, if the need is even there in the first place.

Forwarded Items / Atma-Bugging / Etc:
As others have stated, I think lumping all of these issues together may cause some problems (and yes, I do realize what I just did with my headings) when it comes to proper discussions. As a caveat I have never used Atma nor Forwarded any characters/items, and so my only point of contact is what I've read off the SPF. So with that said I don't really have any dog in this race, and I'm not really sure I have any future intentions to do these things regardless of their legality on the forum. Regardless, I do think there's a certain intrigue in the notion of utilizing past versions for optimization that speaks to me as someone who likes that sort of thing, but I can fully see why people don't like it either. As others have stated there's a bit of a discrepancy between intent and capability between past versions (or the use of ATMA) that really makes the water murky when it comes to deciphering what is being clever with the tools provided and what is being exploitative. If people are feeling hesitant to discuss/use items that are considered legal by the rules of the forum, I do think that's reason enough to spark a discussion, because clearly there's some conflict between the rules and public opinion.

I'll just close by saying that I think regardless of whether actual change comes from it, discussion is a good thing. People should feel free to speak their minds, and remember that disagreeing does not mean you have to be mortal enemies.

That was probably more long winded than it needed to be, but when have I ever done something like that before?

 

[ioupain]

@Xios Well written and well reasoned post.