SPF Reform Proposals and Discussion
- Thread starter fearedbliss
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@darkstarhub Very good point regarding the remaster. It seems nearly every corporation nowadays has taken the "drm" route as a lousy excuse to stop piracy. Time traveling has been a significant investment of my time and others. Eventually we'd like to move stuff forward to have unique gear that stood the test of time. Especially gear from a 2001 patch sitting in a 2018 remaster!
@necrolemming Another good point when looking at the slippery-slope known as modding. However, there is a big difference between the "PlugY" features vs the ilvl. I don't need an infinite stash because I can mule items through LAN, nor do I need extended stats because I can calculate it manually. Unlimited respecs? I can still respec without any mods to the game. However, I cannot see the ilvl at all. The only way of knowing is to memorize each and every source where the item dropped, and even then, what about gambled items that use "+4/-5"? A third party program becomes the only option. I realize what you're saying, and both @fearedbliss and I are keeping things minimal as to not tread icy territory.
@Dezrok While I won't deny what you are saying, I think the decline of other forums and even this one had less to do with the "legit" rules. More so, it's the fact that this game is almost 20 years old and many people moved on. Many "kids" from my generation have never heard about D2. Even then, they wouldn't bother because it doesn't have pristine graphics/social features. The reason we'd like a sub-forum is because virtually everything is dead now, even the PhrozenKeep. Hell just a few years ago even that was more active, but now it's down to 3-4 modders that have already been there for 10 years.
There are a lot of people around these forums who use PlugY, and likely other mods too. I don't see how much of a problem it could be for them to have a sub-forum to discuss their experiences, share their finds, etc. and even schedule MP games with eachother. What about some of the reputable mods like Median XL? I think having a separate place for this would be good for the community, and it would help bring in new members who otherwise wouldn't get back into D2 without a remaster/extensive mod. At the very very least, we need a sticky with bold text saying "PLUGY USERS READ THIS FIRST". Since very few people read the rules before joining, that would at least point them in the right direction, no?
I really don't understand the strong implications surrounding map seed usage. I mean, I've never used third party programs to mule. D2 has a built in command so I can mule items in LAN and then go back to my old map. If somehow this makes me a haxor then please enlighten me!
Anyway, I'm not going to comment anymore on the aforementioned issues. @fearedbliss has shared his thoughts with us and we've seen a blight of opinions, both favorable and harsh. Now it would be nice to see others.
Is there anything you want to see changed?
Do you think anything can be improved?
How should we conclude the bugged item debate?
@necrolemming Another good point when looking at the slippery-slope known as modding. However, there is a big difference between the "PlugY" features vs the ilvl. I don't need an infinite stash because I can mule items through LAN, nor do I need extended stats because I can calculate it manually. Unlimited respecs? I can still respec without any mods to the game. However, I cannot see the ilvl at all. The only way of knowing is to memorize each and every source where the item dropped, and even then, what about gambled items that use "+4/-5"? A third party program becomes the only option. I realize what you're saying, and both @fearedbliss and I are keeping things minimal as to not tread icy territory.
@Dezrok While I won't deny what you are saying, I think the decline of other forums and even this one had less to do with the "legit" rules. More so, it's the fact that this game is almost 20 years old and many people moved on. Many "kids" from my generation have never heard about D2. Even then, they wouldn't bother because it doesn't have pristine graphics/social features. The reason we'd like a sub-forum is because virtually everything is dead now, even the PhrozenKeep. Hell just a few years ago even that was more active, but now it's down to 3-4 modders that have already been there for 10 years.
There are a lot of people around these forums who use PlugY, and likely other mods too. I don't see how much of a problem it could be for them to have a sub-forum to discuss their experiences, share their finds, etc. and even schedule MP games with eachother. What about some of the reputable mods like Median XL? I think having a separate place for this would be good for the community, and it would help bring in new members who otherwise wouldn't get back into D2 without a remaster/extensive mod. At the very very least, we need a sticky with bold text saying "PLUGY USERS READ THIS FIRST". Since very few people read the rules before joining, that would at least point them in the right direction, no?
I really don't understand the strong implications surrounding map seed usage. I mean, I've never used third party programs to mule. D2 has a built in command so I can mule items in LAN and then go back to my old map. If somehow this makes me a haxor then please enlighten me!
Anyway, I'm not going to comment anymore on the aforementioned issues. @fearedbliss has shared his thoughts with us and we've seen a blight of opinions, both favorable and harsh. Now it would be nice to see others.
Is there anything you want to see changed?
Do you think anything can be improved?
How should we conclude the bugged item debate?
logoutzero
Active member
- Nov 9, 2005
- 1,539
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Came across a thumb drive while vacating my job yesterday. Wouldn't you know, its chock full of installations ranging from 1.00 to 1.14, with a multitude of characters and stashes (for more recent patches) strewn across nearly decades of game development, in varying stages of completion. I piddled around with a few different characters, walked through Act I untwinked with a fishy to break the rust off my knuckles, and soon realized I had no idea where I wanted to play.
"I wonder what's going on at the SPF? Surely that will direct me to what to play, especially if I see any of my old friends active!"
Anyway, I stopped playing on the realms because I hated being at a constant competitive disadvantage by not duping, botting, or using bugged items. When I found the SPF, I felt like I found a group of people with similar situations, but more importantly, the population as a whole was mature, intelligent, and of a generally higher caliber than the majority of realm players. What has kept me coming back to D2 for years now has been the community of the SPF. When I was introduced to hardcore multiplayer with people who's friendships grew beyond playing the game, I felt like I found a place to belong. Having managed a network catered specifically for hardcore players for a year, with games happening multiple times throughout the day with people from all over the world, I felt a real connection with many of the members here. Knowing when a member would be waking up, arriving home from work, or how their son did at their recital became highlights of my day. Having the solidarity of like-minded people, trusting in one another not to 'cheat' or 'game the system' and ultimately being rewarded for that trust, that's what the SPF has always been about to me.
Without the rules, the SPF does not exist.
I tend to agree with the bar or cafe analogies seen earlier in this thread: if you don't like chicken wings, don't go to a place that only serves them.
However, I also understand that operating a community like this costs not only hours, which are precious and finite, but also dollars, and dollars are only brought in by patrons and customers. If selling only chicken wings isn't able to pay the bills, either the menu has to expand to attract and retain a growing client base, or the doors must close. There's some wiggle room for government subsidized, woman-owned businesses (in the US) or charities/not-for-profit organizations, but for the most part, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense.
"I wonder what's going on at the SPF? Surely that will direct me to what to play, especially if I see any of my old friends active!"
Anyway, I stopped playing on the realms because I hated being at a constant competitive disadvantage by not duping, botting, or using bugged items. When I found the SPF, I felt like I found a group of people with similar situations, but more importantly, the population as a whole was mature, intelligent, and of a generally higher caliber than the majority of realm players. What has kept me coming back to D2 for years now has been the community of the SPF. When I was introduced to hardcore multiplayer with people who's friendships grew beyond playing the game, I felt like I found a place to belong. Having managed a network catered specifically for hardcore players for a year, with games happening multiple times throughout the day with people from all over the world, I felt a real connection with many of the members here. Knowing when a member would be waking up, arriving home from work, or how their son did at their recital became highlights of my day. Having the solidarity of like-minded people, trusting in one another not to 'cheat' or 'game the system' and ultimately being rewarded for that trust, that's what the SPF has always been about to me.
Without the rules, the SPF does not exist.
I tend to agree with the bar or cafe analogies seen earlier in this thread: if you don't like chicken wings, don't go to a place that only serves them.
However, I also understand that operating a community like this costs not only hours, which are precious and finite, but also dollars, and dollars are only brought in by patrons and customers. If selling only chicken wings isn't able to pay the bills, either the menu has to expand to attract and retain a growing client base, or the doors must close. There's some wiggle room for government subsidized, woman-owned businesses (in the US) or charities/not-for-profit organizations, but for the most part, if it doesn't make dollars, it doesn't make sense.
Haven't had much time to read or post to the forums lately, but I guess now is as good time as any to break the silence.
***
Discussion of Mods:
This is a tricky one. I'm all for modding, but I think the rules and etiquette need to be clear. This forum is relatively light on mods, and I think that's partly because that's the way people here prefer their game. I guess good way to discuss new mods would be something like this:
Modder opening a thread, asking: "Hey guys, I've been thinking of making a mod that does x, what do you think?" Discussion ensues, and nothing gets distributed before it is at least somewhat clear what the consensus is. If people disagree with the modder (and themselves) about the necessity of the mod, the modder disregards the idea and moves on to next project. If the feedback is almost unanimously positive, the the mod could be carefully tested by some and maybe becomes FAM. This all would happen with the blessings of the moderators, of course.
This would be how it goes in the perfect world, but we of course live in the flawed version. I'm not sure what the current situation regarding the moderators is, but I'm guessing they're not particularly active. This can of course be frustrating to modders. But I don't think it's a good way to counter this with just releasing everything and potentially splitting the small community further. And getting hurt when people don't necessarily appreciate the mods you've been working so hard on. Even if you have the best intentions, some people like their game as it is. And snarky comments from old-timers are a given. Best ways for modders to contribute in a forum like this, is to listen to the community and react accordingly. Not shove their vision of the game to everyones face and expect ambrosia form the sky (Not saying that anyone has done exactly this. This is a long post and I have to occasionally add a bit of straightforward prose to keep it interesting for myself.)
Modding subforum could help in this matter, but do we need/want another subforum? But I think it would make this all a bit more trustworthy, to have discussion about mods out in the open. People shouldn't be afraid to talk about things they think would enhance their gaming experience.
Also this thing: Most mods I see add something to the game that makes it easier, be it colored rune, /p8 for 1.07 or the dead HC char to SC thing. I have little to no interest in those.Mods can also sometimes be too invasive, adding unwanted graphics or content. What I'd rather see are simple bugfixes. Like fixing the Inferno bug. That would make at least one build more playable. Those are the kind of mods I'd use.
Oh, and I think we should be able to say "We don't discuss PlugY here." Because it's a mod, not Voldemort, and it often leads to confusing situations for new members, since they don't know what they did wrong since we cannot name the mod they cannot use. God it's a mess.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
This I have no big opinion of. I'm perfectly satisfied with GoMule and ATMA since I use those anyway. And so does almost anyone else. And most of the people who don't use muling software usually tend to keep their game as vanilla as possible, so I'm not sure who this mod is for. But if it's been requested I guess there's a need for it? This is exactly a situation where a thread about a mod before it's release could come handy. Dunno.
The "Shift" method is elegant though, and it is a good example of non-invasive mod if it works as advertised.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
As a Time Traveler and occasional trader I'm obviously for this, and I'm a bit confused why for example 1.07 trading is currently prohibited.
[Potentially Offtopic Rant]:
I think people have pretty big misconceptions about just how powerful the time traveled items are. Sure, 1.07 Shako and Arkaine's have ridiculous stats, but for me, with most builds 1.13 Shako wins over the 1.07 counterpart, and 1.07 Arkaine's is just an another option among Enigma/CoH/Vipermagi/etc. Time traveled items rarely make or break characters, they just add a little bit something or open different options. There's very little of this "unfair advantage" you hear so often mentioned. Just check the tables of recent MFO/RFO-like tournaments. You have ultra-optimized, time traveled item-using guys and untwinked guys going neck to neck and the competition is still anyones game.
Really, the real "unfair advantage" in this game is not time travel, it's time. The player that has most time in their hands to sink into Diablo 2 will always find better stuff and have better skills than the player who plays few hours during weekends. And that's completely fine. The tourneys and alike can sometimes become competitive, but for me they're mostly about having fun as community and coming up with theorycrafting that benefits everyone. Only reason I've used time traveled items during those is, that I want to push myself further, not to be better than anyone else.
I dunno, sometimes it feels that the people who complain about time travel are like the players who complain that Enigma is cheating and overpowered, just because they just haven't put the hours in LK to actually try one. If the people who have only tried the current version would actually try, say, version 1.07, they would notice that:
a) It's not easy
b) It's definitely not cheating
c) It's really fun and prolongs your d2 experience and makes you appreciate the current version even more
Sure, finding the loot and being able to forward it is a big part of the charm, but it's certainly reward that is earned, and I can't but feel a little bit insulted whenever someone who has never touched 1.07 or alike says time travel is cheating. It certainly doesn't feel like cheating, to run same rack for tens of hours after building an untwinked character form scratch in insanely unfinished game. Crazy, yes. Stupid, possibly. Cheating, not so much.
[End of Potentially Offtopic Rant]
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
Couldn't care less atm.
Map Seeds:
Big NO to backing up and (especially) sharing of map seeds. For me, finding a good map is like finding a good item, and in this case it's something that's unique to your particular installation of D2. And if you want to visit another difficulty, or just try and see if you could find a better map, you have to make a choice, and making those hard choices is a big gameplay element for me.
I get the point about everyone using the same seed for tournaments, but IMO it would just make things more boring. Part of the reason why I joined the forum is that I want to be able to show others my version of D2, and for me to see theirs. I want to see different maps and characters in tournaments, because that way we can learn valuable things. Sure, some maps will be better than others, but this is a game based on randomization and luck. It will never be the same for everyone.
And given how hard and frustrating it can be to roll good map (which I guess is exactly the reason this is discussed), sharing seeds could end up in a situation where only few select seeds are used for everything, and that would change the course of the game to a path I'm not willing to follow.
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
Hmm. My gut says that yes, it probably should. It's a kinda unfair towards trading HC players, since items can be transfered out of trade pool. I wonder why this was allowed in the first place? But then again, I don't really play HC that much so not the best person to comment this.
And yeah, I think the transferring of dead HC characters to SC is a terrible idea, no matter how you look at it.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
Dunno really how big of a problem this is. I mean, who is playing 1.13b? The biggest problem is between 1.13 and 1.14, but I still think it's probably wise to separate different versions, just to be sure there's no funny business, corrupt items etc. Of course, I'm not the most technically savvy person around here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
I kinda like the white runes
What can I say, I dig the charm of world gone by. But I probably wouldn't care if someone else did this, as long as they'd be transparent and upfront about this. I don't really how big of a negative thing changing the item colors in the game would be, as long as it is done by mod that's available for everybody. I wouldn't like it aesthetically, because I like the colors as is, but I don't think you should get banned because of it.
BONUS ROUND: The ATMA bug
Yeah, this one isn't going away, is it?
I get the reaction @maxicek had, but I think we should probably have a profound conversation about the topic. As a person who has, ATMA-bugged items, I don't currently feel comfortable using them, and I don't like that feeling one bit. At the time I used the ATMA-bug, I was under the impression that people who have joined the forum have accepted the rules and put the animosities this particular bug has caused years ago behind them. Since this is not the case, judging by the frequency people tend to bring this topic up in highly negative light, I feel that by using the ATMA bug I have added to the schism, and would probably decided not to use the bug had I been aware how some of you feel. Whats done is done, but I still think better discussion is in order, and if there's some conclusion, I'm willing to react accordingly. I just want to play the game and share my progress without having to feel like I'm offending somebody. But I guess this needs it's own topic, this one has enough conundrums already.
***
@fearedbliss It's probably good thing you started this discussion, but I think you should take it a bit easier. It seems to me, after few months absence, that the state of SPF is completely fine. Sure, it's a bit quiet, but what do you expect. I trust you had good intentions, but seriously, it seems that the concerns you had have something to do with the fact that people didn't respond to your mods the way you hoped. I think the things you do are interesting but some times ill-informed, and you seem to have modders perspective to how things should be on a forum that is gamer-driven and overall pretty conservative, at least compared to other almost 20-year old games people still play nowadays.
IMO, the guys who have the most important opinion are the guys actually currently playing the game. Like, putting in the hours and clicking the mouse and playing the game. Those who post in the Item Find thread, who participate in tourneys and challenges, who make Mat/Pat threads, the untwinked 99ers. Those are the ones whose opinion matters, and if they think reform is in order then it probably is. But if they disagree with you, you should listen, because if you plan to continue to distribute your mods in this forum, they are your audience, and you should try and keep them intact, rather than splitting them in good and bad guys based on who agree and disagree with you.
People generally don't react very well to being told what's best for them, especially if they're fine with how things are currently. It's a community after all, and the rules are there not only to restrict us, but to remind that we all believe in similar standards and limitations. Changing those rules isn't a walk in the park, nor it should be.
TL;DR: I'm back! For a while at least! With opinions!
***
Discussion of Mods:
This is a tricky one. I'm all for modding, but I think the rules and etiquette need to be clear. This forum is relatively light on mods, and I think that's partly because that's the way people here prefer their game. I guess good way to discuss new mods would be something like this:
Modder opening a thread, asking: "Hey guys, I've been thinking of making a mod that does x, what do you think?" Discussion ensues, and nothing gets distributed before it is at least somewhat clear what the consensus is. If people disagree with the modder (and themselves) about the necessity of the mod, the modder disregards the idea and moves on to next project. If the feedback is almost unanimously positive, the the mod could be carefully tested by some and maybe becomes FAM. This all would happen with the blessings of the moderators, of course.
This would be how it goes in the perfect world, but we of course live in the flawed version. I'm not sure what the current situation regarding the moderators is, but I'm guessing they're not particularly active. This can of course be frustrating to modders. But I don't think it's a good way to counter this with just releasing everything and potentially splitting the small community further. And getting hurt when people don't necessarily appreciate the mods you've been working so hard on. Even if you have the best intentions, some people like their game as it is. And snarky comments from old-timers are a given. Best ways for modders to contribute in a forum like this, is to listen to the community and react accordingly. Not shove their vision of the game to everyones face and expect ambrosia form the sky (Not saying that anyone has done exactly this. This is a long post and I have to occasionally add a bit of straightforward prose to keep it interesting for myself.)
Modding subforum could help in this matter, but do we need/want another subforum? But I think it would make this all a bit more trustworthy, to have discussion about mods out in the open. People shouldn't be afraid to talk about things they think would enhance their gaming experience.
Also this thing: Most mods I see add something to the game that makes it easier, be it colored rune, /p8 for 1.07 or the dead HC char to SC thing. I have little to no interest in those.Mods can also sometimes be too invasive, adding unwanted graphics or content. What I'd rather see are simple bugfixes. Like fixing the Inferno bug. That would make at least one build more playable. Those are the kind of mods I'd use.
Oh, and I think we should be able to say "We don't discuss PlugY here." Because it's a mod, not Voldemort, and it often leads to confusing situations for new members, since they don't know what they did wrong since we cannot name the mod they cannot use. God it's a mess.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
This I have no big opinion of. I'm perfectly satisfied with GoMule and ATMA since I use those anyway. And so does almost anyone else. And most of the people who don't use muling software usually tend to keep their game as vanilla as possible, so I'm not sure who this mod is for. But if it's been requested I guess there's a need for it? This is exactly a situation where a thread about a mod before it's release could come handy. Dunno.
The "Shift" method is elegant though, and it is a good example of non-invasive mod if it works as advertised.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
As a Time Traveler and occasional trader I'm obviously for this, and I'm a bit confused why for example 1.07 trading is currently prohibited.
[Potentially Offtopic Rant]:
I think people have pretty big misconceptions about just how powerful the time traveled items are. Sure, 1.07 Shako and Arkaine's have ridiculous stats, but for me, with most builds 1.13 Shako wins over the 1.07 counterpart, and 1.07 Arkaine's is just an another option among Enigma/CoH/Vipermagi/etc. Time traveled items rarely make or break characters, they just add a little bit something or open different options. There's very little of this "unfair advantage" you hear so often mentioned. Just check the tables of recent MFO/RFO-like tournaments. You have ultra-optimized, time traveled item-using guys and untwinked guys going neck to neck and the competition is still anyones game.
Really, the real "unfair advantage" in this game is not time travel, it's time. The player that has most time in their hands to sink into Diablo 2 will always find better stuff and have better skills than the player who plays few hours during weekends. And that's completely fine. The tourneys and alike can sometimes become competitive, but for me they're mostly about having fun as community and coming up with theorycrafting that benefits everyone. Only reason I've used time traveled items during those is, that I want to push myself further, not to be better than anyone else.
I dunno, sometimes it feels that the people who complain about time travel are like the players who complain that Enigma is cheating and overpowered, just because they just haven't put the hours in LK to actually try one. If the people who have only tried the current version would actually try, say, version 1.07, they would notice that:
a) It's not easy
b) It's definitely not cheating
c) It's really fun and prolongs your d2 experience and makes you appreciate the current version even more
Sure, finding the loot and being able to forward it is a big part of the charm, but it's certainly reward that is earned, and I can't but feel a little bit insulted whenever someone who has never touched 1.07 or alike says time travel is cheating. It certainly doesn't feel like cheating, to run same rack for tens of hours after building an untwinked character form scratch in insanely unfinished game. Crazy, yes. Stupid, possibly. Cheating, not so much.
[End of Potentially Offtopic Rant]
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
Couldn't care less atm.
Map Seeds:
Big NO to backing up and (especially) sharing of map seeds. For me, finding a good map is like finding a good item, and in this case it's something that's unique to your particular installation of D2. And if you want to visit another difficulty, or just try and see if you could find a better map, you have to make a choice, and making those hard choices is a big gameplay element for me.
I get the point about everyone using the same seed for tournaments, but IMO it would just make things more boring. Part of the reason why I joined the forum is that I want to be able to show others my version of D2, and for me to see theirs. I want to see different maps and characters in tournaments, because that way we can learn valuable things. Sure, some maps will be better than others, but this is a game based on randomization and luck. It will never be the same for everyone.
And given how hard and frustrating it can be to roll good map (which I guess is exactly the reason this is discussed), sharing seeds could end up in a situation where only few select seeds are used for everything, and that would change the course of the game to a path I'm not willing to follow.
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
Hmm. My gut says that yes, it probably should. It's a kinda unfair towards trading HC players, since items can be transfered out of trade pool. I wonder why this was allowed in the first place? But then again, I don't really play HC that much so not the best person to comment this.
And yeah, I think the transferring of dead HC characters to SC is a terrible idea, no matter how you look at it.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
Dunno really how big of a problem this is. I mean, who is playing 1.13b? The biggest problem is between 1.13 and 1.14, but I still think it's probably wise to separate different versions, just to be sure there's no funny business, corrupt items etc. Of course, I'm not the most technically savvy person around here, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
I kinda like the white runes
What can I say, I dig the charm of world gone by. But I probably wouldn't care if someone else did this, as long as they'd be transparent and upfront about this. I don't really how big of a negative thing changing the item colors in the game would be, as long as it is done by mod that's available for everybody. I wouldn't like it aesthetically, because I like the colors as is, but I don't think you should get banned because of it.BONUS ROUND: The ATMA bug
Yeah, this one isn't going away, is it?
I get the reaction @maxicek had, but I think we should probably have a profound conversation about the topic. As a person who has, ATMA-bugged items, I don't currently feel comfortable using them, and I don't like that feeling one bit. At the time I used the ATMA-bug, I was under the impression that people who have joined the forum have accepted the rules and put the animosities this particular bug has caused years ago behind them. Since this is not the case, judging by the frequency people tend to bring this topic up in highly negative light, I feel that by using the ATMA bug I have added to the schism, and would probably decided not to use the bug had I been aware how some of you feel. Whats done is done, but I still think better discussion is in order, and if there's some conclusion, I'm willing to react accordingly. I just want to play the game and share my progress without having to feel like I'm offending somebody. But I guess this needs it's own topic, this one has enough conundrums already.
***
@fearedbliss It's probably good thing you started this discussion, but I think you should take it a bit easier. It seems to me, after few months absence, that the state of SPF is completely fine. Sure, it's a bit quiet, but what do you expect. I trust you had good intentions, but seriously, it seems that the concerns you had have something to do with the fact that people didn't respond to your mods the way you hoped. I think the things you do are interesting but some times ill-informed, and you seem to have modders perspective to how things should be on a forum that is gamer-driven and overall pretty conservative, at least compared to other almost 20-year old games people still play nowadays.
IMO, the guys who have the most important opinion are the guys actually currently playing the game. Like, putting in the hours and clicking the mouse and playing the game. Those who post in the Item Find thread, who participate in tourneys and challenges, who make Mat/Pat threads, the untwinked 99ers. Those are the ones whose opinion matters, and if they think reform is in order then it probably is. But if they disagree with you, you should listen, because if you plan to continue to distribute your mods in this forum, they are your audience, and you should try and keep them intact, rather than splitting them in good and bad guys based on who agree and disagree with you.
People generally don't react very well to being told what's best for them, especially if they're fine with how things are currently. It's a community after all, and the rules are there not only to restrict us, but to remind that we all believe in similar standards and limitations. Changing those rules isn't a walk in the park, nor it should be.
TL;DR: I'm back! For a while at least! With opinions!
I like the game we have and the mods we use. Been playing it for years, been coming here for years. On the topics raised my gut tells me no - change is a great thing, but I don't think it's necessary for D2 or the forum.
Nope. Well, maybe people being nicer.
Nope. Well, maybe a higher screen resolution.
Use the ban stick. (On the topic, not a forumite.... okay not a great joke).
- Sep 12, 2013
- 4,903
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How about we make a questionnaire that covers each issue, so we have some statistics to highlight everyone's opinions? Something like this:
1. ATMA bugging:
a. What's done is done - current SPF rules allow it and should not be changed.
b. The past is in the past - people have done it, but it shouldn't be allowed/condoned in the SPF rules going forward.
c. Give peace a chance - going forward, it should be against SPF rules, and bugged items deleted.
d. You say you want a revolution - going forward, against SPF rules and all items/characters that have come into contact with bugged items need to be deleted.
1. ATMA bugging:
a. What's done is done - current SPF rules allow it and should not be changed.
b. The past is in the past - people have done it, but it shouldn't be allowed/condoned in the SPF rules going forward.
c. Give peace a chance - going forward, it should be against SPF rules, and bugged items deleted.
d. You say you want a revolution - going forward, against SPF rules and all items/characters that have come into contact with bugged items need to be deleted.
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How about we include a "participation level" in the questionnaire? Active forumite? Player? Trader? Participating in tournaments? Etc.
If the people for/against a certain issue aren't active players or active in the community. I think that should be taken into account, but not completely disregarded.
I mostly play untwinked and don't trade, so this does not affect me whatsoever; but I am very curious.
I've finally come down from the fence.
Discussion of Mods
There is a place for everything, and the SPC (I mean SPF) is not the place to discuss mod and mod making; a separate sub-forum, you betcha, but not here.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
I must say that I have no strong feeling either way on this one but on the surface this may be a good idea.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
Yes, but with a major caveat: all items found in classic must remain in classic! I would apply this caveat to upgrading of items from lower patches to higher patches as well. Classic and LoD should be considered as separate games and never the twain shall meet!
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
It depends on the reason for playing it; as a stand alone curiosity yes, as a cheese factory no.
Map Seeds
I believe that it is ok using Map Seeds for recovering your accidentally lost map and ... that about all really!
Enabling ladder-only runewords in 1.10
Ladder-only runewords are not allowed in 1.10 in the SPF??
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
Like Classic and LoD, HC and SC should be considered as separate games and, again, never the twain shall meet.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
This is a relatively new and absolutely stupid rule. Back in the day 1.09b and 1.09d players traded and even MPed without restriction.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
As a part of my colour blind mod, I did this back in 1.12 (I even coloured the gems as well) and I know it was around, but not declared, even earlier. To me this is a no-brainer!
Edit: I touched on, but didn't completely cover time travelling items. So long as the item remains in the game in which it was found (classic or LoD), I have not objection to moving items, even bugged ones, forward.
Edit2: @DiabloTwoinDC as much as it sickens me to say it, I'm in the "b" camp.
Edit3: I meant SPF not SPC. That's what you get when you are trying to write a post in the Single Player Forum while re-writing my lecture on Statistical Process Control!
Discussion of Mods
There is a place for everything, and the SPC (I mean SPF) is not the place to discuss mod and mod making; a separate sub-forum, you betcha, but not here.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
I must say that I have no strong feeling either way on this one but on the surface this may be a good idea.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
Yes, but with a major caveat: all items found in classic must remain in classic! I would apply this caveat to upgrading of items from lower patches to higher patches as well. Classic and LoD should be considered as separate games and never the twain shall meet!
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
It depends on the reason for playing it; as a stand alone curiosity yes, as a cheese factory no.
Map Seeds
I believe that it is ok using Map Seeds for recovering your accidentally lost map and ... that about all really!
Enabling ladder-only runewords in 1.10
Ladder-only runewords are not allowed in 1.10 in the SPF??
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
Like Classic and LoD, HC and SC should be considered as separate games and, again, never the twain shall meet.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
This is a relatively new and absolutely stupid rule. Back in the day 1.09b and 1.09d players traded and even MPed without restriction.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
As a part of my colour blind mod, I did this back in 1.12 (I even coloured the gems as well) and I know it was around, but not declared, even earlier. To me this is a no-brainer!
Edit: I touched on, but didn't completely cover time travelling items. So long as the item remains in the game in which it was found (classic or LoD), I have not objection to moving items, even bugged ones, forward.
Edit2: @DiabloTwoinDC as much as it sickens me to say it, I'm in the "b" camp.
Edit3: I meant SPF not SPC. That's what you get when you are trying to write a post in the Single Player Forum while re-writing my lecture on Statistical Process Control!
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That may be so, but when it comes to a D2 world in which laws govern legit play, it's certainly analogous to getting away with murder.
.... as illustrated by @Burgomaster3 (welcome back!) by describing what it feels like to use them from today's perspective.Everybody knows it's wrong, so why not just get rid of this nonsense. I don't blame a single player for using such items since it was FAM all the time, back then runes were rare, these items were there and it was definitely a crappy situation and a difficult decision. It was still a wrong decision -- it happens, sometimes people get things wrong. I totally get that a community restart revolving around these items would be close to a killing blow to the SPF. But apparently my suggestion that this doesn't have to be the case seems to be acceptable to several members. If this is the case for most here, I don't see any reason why this should continue to be an allowed practice.
Also wholly agree with @DiabloTwoinDC. Others (e.g. @ioupainmax and myself) have also advocated some kind of survey in this whole "SPF I know" discussion last year. Unsurprisingly, that idea was quickly squelched... even though, to be fair, different topics were at hand there. Anyway, some kind of overview of the overall community opinion is way overdue. Maybe @Burgomaster3 is right though in saying that the ATMA issue should be treated separately from modding/allowed patches aspects. Not sure...
I guess the crucial question for the SPF is who is making decisions. Is it the member base majority, sort of like a grassroots democracy? Or are a few individuals responsible for the rule framework? This sounds more cynical than I mean it, it's not like I consider this to be dictatorship
everybody is free to do anything within this framework after all, and as long as I can play according to my standards I'm not going to leave the SPF. But I certainly would feel more comfortable here if changes did occur, and from this thread and other discussions it seems that so does the vast majority of active members.
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Lemstar
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I'm probably closest to B. I think that there should at least be an acknowledgement of the fact that ATMA bugging isn't a "natural" outcome, and that people should be discouraged from deliberately using it. I don't think that prohibiting people outright from doing it is a viable idea, but the tacit encouragement is kind of offputting.
It might as well be anarchy here.I guess the crucial question for the SPF is who is making decisions. Is it the member base majority, sort of like a grassroots democracy? Or are a few individuals responsible for the rule framework? This sounds more cynical than I mean it, it's not like I consider this to be dictatorship
ioupain
Well-known member
@ioupainmax Haven't seen Agents of SHIELD I'm afraid, but I very much appreciate those Monty Python references, keep them coming @DiabloTwoinDC, some comic relief never hurts!
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Historially the moderators word was law. The fact that we are basically moderator less means we are in uncharted waters.
Trading will not be revived by a few rule changes. Sure there will be a few trades, but for PvM it quickly gets to the point where you do not need to trade. PvP has always driven the big trades, just look at @nulio’s threads. An Amber SC of Vita may be nice on a PvM character, but only a PvPer will pay the big bucks.
Banning ATMA bugging is interesting. It is easy for those who have never done it to say, “yes the people should just delete their items.” But many people don’t have such high morals when they traded with someone who did it. If we said any character who had interacted with or received items from someone who used it should be deleted, I suspect the enthusiasm may not be so high.
Trading will not be revived by a few rule changes. Sure there will be a few trades, but for PvM it quickly gets to the point where you do not need to trade. PvP has always driven the big trades, just look at @nulio’s threads. An Amber SC of Vita may be nice on a PvM character, but only a PvPer will pay the big bucks.
Banning ATMA bugging is interesting. It is easy for those who have never done it to say, “yes the people should just delete their items.” But many people don’t have such high morals when they traded with someone who did it. If we said any character who had interacted with or received items from someone who used it should be deleted, I suspect the enthusiasm may not be so high.
I don't think that it is fair to make people delete items, it feels like making something a crime and fining people who committed that crime a decade ago.
@Burgomaster3 That was probably the most useful addition to the thread for a while. The only thing that I really disagree on is time travelling. I can't decide if cheating is the right word, but it is at least very cheesy to deliberately go and get an item from another version and bring it to the version that you actually play, and it makes me a little uncomfortable on a personal level. However, I'm not against people doing it, as lots of things are cheesy. It does feel like a different category of cheesy though. Also, I would add that something taking time and effort does not make it not cheating. You don't get to steal from your neighbour so long as you put lots of careful planning into it (except that you might then get away with it, obviously...). Also, beta CtA is the main one for me, that is a big advantage in my eyes. I would agree that the others aren't such a big difference, to my knowledge, I don't know about all of the time travel items. Others include MPK rings the damage small charms - clearly not intended to be in this version of the game.
On the other hand, I play in tournaments with people who time travel an it doesn't bother me. After all, I'm just playing for fun and honestly don't care if I'm 1st of 10th, nor do I think that the outcome is decided by such items.
@Burgomaster3 That was probably the most useful addition to the thread for a while. The only thing that I really disagree on is time travelling. I can't decide if cheating is the right word, but it is at least very cheesy to deliberately go and get an item from another version and bring it to the version that you actually play, and it makes me a little uncomfortable on a personal level. However, I'm not against people doing it, as lots of things are cheesy. It does feel like a different category of cheesy though. Also, I would add that something taking time and effort does not make it not cheating. You don't get to steal from your neighbour so long as you put lots of careful planning into it (except that you might then get away with it, obviously...). Also, beta CtA is the main one for me, that is a big advantage in my eyes. I would agree that the others aren't such a big difference, to my knowledge, I don't know about all of the time travel items. Others include MPK rings the damage small charms - clearly not intended to be in this version of the game.
On the other hand, I play in tournaments with people who time travel an it doesn't bother me. After all, I'm just playing for fun and honestly don't care if I'm 1st of 10th, nor do I think that the outcome is decided by such items.
T72on1
New member
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Interesting conversation, just like the 'The SPF I used to know' thread was. However
It's a thin line we are walking here, so not really easy. On one hand there is a reason the SPF is what it is, and people come to it because of that. So we should be very careful when changing things. On the other hand, we should avoid treating the rules here as set in stone, because once upon a time it was decided this way.
Having said that, here is my stance on the things brought up.
Discussion of Mods
I've always felt a little uncomfortable that mods not supported here can't even be mentioned. When someone brings up Plugy, I should reply to him in a way like 'the mod that shouldn't be named, which you just mentioned, can't be mentioned here, so please adjust your post'. People know other mods exist, also mods that are considered cheating, so let's just call them by their name, no? But obviously always in a way so that it is clear that we don't support or encourage them.
I don't think there has to be an actual subforum for mods though. I don't think there's that much interest. If there was, the Phrozen Keep would be more active than it is. We should never forget that this is an 18 year old game we are talking about. People who have been around here for a long time might get the feeling that things are about to collapse, as someone mentioned, but I think we can actually be quite happy with the activity still around here, and the fact that new people are still arriving and actively participating. Amount of people participating in tournaments might be low compared to a few years ago, but again, I consider them good if you look at the release date of the game we are talking about.
Next to the absence of interest for mods in my opinion, I think another reason not to have a special subforum for mods is that this is what the SPF is about and how people have come to know it: a forum for single player D2, with almost no bells and whistles to the original game. People join us specifically for that, and it wouldn't make sense to broaden it to include mods, years and years after D2 mods were a big thing.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
I don't have any strong feelings about this one. I'm using GoMule anyway, so I can see the ilvl, but I agree that it's a useful stat to see, it's in the game already, just not shown to the player, and we can't expect everyone to use GoMule / Atma or remember where stuff dropped. The latter you can't always be very certain of anyway, unless you hold down the find item key the entire time, and even then ...
So I guess I wouldn't mind having it, but maybe needing to press a key to see it would be a good solution as to not force it too much. If it gets a no in the end, I think most people use GoMule or Atma anyway, so it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
I usually don't trade, so don't have a strong opinion on it. I think I actually like the current system, where some trades or FAM, but not between all versions. I don't think the MP community here is very large, to justify a change to the current system.
As to forwarding items, which was also one of the main issues in the 'The SPF I know' thread ... it's a difficult one. I don't think anyone has an unfair advantage over others using them in for example tournaments. At least that's not how I ever felt about them. But the argument I keep hearing in the discussion about item forwarding is 'they have had to put a lot of time and dedication in it, so let them have those items'. That's simply not a good reason to allow something, as @Kitteh shows with his example. Either we consider it allowed or not, but the amount of time people needed for it doesn't play a role. At all.
I think going by the intentions of Blizzard when creating a certain patch or doing something in general, could be a very good starting point when determing wether or not something is allowed. Problem is that it's always hard to tell obviously.
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
I guess it could be allowed, so people can check it out. But only if everything stays in the patch, so no forwarding or trading.
Map Seeds
I don't see a reason to change to current rule. As someone else said, finding a very good map seed is like finding a rare item. It's part of the game, it's all about making decisions. Otherwise we'll all have the same Pit, AT, Travincal, ... map.
Enabling ladder-only runewords in 1.10
I didn't know this wasn't the case. I don't see a reason not to allow those in 1.10 as well.
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
I never understood why those were allowed, so yeah, agreed.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
I didn't know this was an issue.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
I don't see a problem with this
Atma Bug
I can see why some of the long time members here are getting tired of the same discussion being brought up again and again. But isn't that partially because proper discussion was never really had, as they were always shut down by 'been there, discussed that, decided upon'. But that was so long ago, and the decision doesn't make much sense in my opinion, and apparantly others agree with this.
We know it's a bug due to the program. People who have made eth bugged items back then shouldn't delete them. People who have made them up to this point, shouldn't either, as it was FAM. But what's so hard about saying: we all clearly know this is a bug right now, so from this point on we don't allow any new Atma bugged items anymore?
- I really hope that people keep being respectful for each other, as that is one of the main reasons I like forums like this one and the AB so much
- it should be more clear as to who the mod for the SPF is right now, because otherwise we'll keep debating stuff, and nothing actually happens. Ideally 'we all get to agree on something and then that is being implemented', but we have to be realistic: in the end almost always there has to be someone or a group of people to take the actual decision.
It's a thin line we are walking here, so not really easy. On one hand there is a reason the SPF is what it is, and people come to it because of that. So we should be very careful when changing things. On the other hand, we should avoid treating the rules here as set in stone, because once upon a time it was decided this way.
Having said that, here is my stance on the things brought up.
Discussion of Mods
I've always felt a little uncomfortable that mods not supported here can't even be mentioned. When someone brings up Plugy, I should reply to him in a way like 'the mod that shouldn't be named, which you just mentioned, can't be mentioned here, so please adjust your post'. People know other mods exist, also mods that are considered cheating, so let's just call them by their name, no? But obviously always in a way so that it is clear that we don't support or encourage them.
I don't think there has to be an actual subforum for mods though. I don't think there's that much interest. If there was, the Phrozen Keep would be more active than it is. We should never forget that this is an 18 year old game we are talking about. People who have been around here for a long time might get the feeling that things are about to collapse, as someone mentioned, but I think we can actually be quite happy with the activity still around here, and the fact that new people are still arriving and actively participating. Amount of people participating in tournaments might be low compared to a few years ago, but again, I consider them good if you look at the release date of the game we are talking about.
Next to the absence of interest for mods in my opinion, I think another reason not to have a special subforum for mods is that this is what the SPF is about and how people have come to know it: a forum for single player D2, with almost no bells and whistles to the original game. People join us specifically for that, and it wouldn't make sense to broaden it to include mods, years and years after D2 mods were a big thing.
Adding Item Level and Fingerprint support to Singling
I don't have any strong feelings about this one. I'm using GoMule anyway, so I can see the ilvl, but I agree that it's a useful stat to see, it's in the game already, just not shown to the player, and we can't expect everyone to use GoMule / Atma or remember where stuff dropped. The latter you can't always be very certain of anyway, unless you hold down the find item key the entire time, and even then ...
So I guess I wouldn't mind having it, but maybe needing to press a key to see it would be a good solution as to not force it too much. If it gets a no in the end, I think most people use GoMule or Atma anyway, so it wouldn't be the end of the world.
Allowing trading in all Diablo II versions (Including the previously stopped 1.00-1.11 trading)
I usually don't trade, so don't have a strong opinion on it. I think I actually like the current system, where some trades or FAM, but not between all versions. I don't think the MP community here is very large, to justify a change to the current system.
As to forwarding items, which was also one of the main issues in the 'The SPF I know' thread ... it's a difficult one. I don't think anyone has an unfair advantage over others using them in for example tournaments. At least that's not how I ever felt about them. But the argument I keep hearing in the discussion about item forwarding is 'they have had to put a lot of time and dedication in it, so let them have those items'. That's simply not a good reason to allow something, as @Kitteh shows with his example. Either we consider it allowed or not, but the amount of time people needed for it doesn't play a role. At all.
I think going by the intentions of Blizzard when creating a certain patch or doing something in general, could be a very good starting point when determing wether or not something is allowed. Problem is that it's always hard to tell obviously.
Allowing the play of LOD 1.07.41 Beta
I guess it could be allowed, so people can check it out. But only if everything stays in the patch, so no forwarding or trading.
Map Seeds
I don't see a reason to change to current rule. As someone else said, finding a very good map seed is like finding a rare item. It's part of the game, it's all about making decisions. Otherwise we'll all have the same Pit, AT, Travincal, ... map.
Enabling ladder-only runewords in 1.10
I didn't know this wasn't the case. I don't see a reason not to allow those in 1.10 as well.
HC to SC item transfers should be banned
I never understood why those were allowed, so yeah, agreed.
Allow players within minor versions of a game to play with each other
I didn't know this was an issue.
Color Rune Mod in older versions than 1.13.
I don't see a problem with this
Atma Bug
I can see why some of the long time members here are getting tired of the same discussion being brought up again and again. But isn't that partially because proper discussion was never really had, as they were always shut down by 'been there, discussed that, decided upon'. But that was so long ago, and the decision doesn't make much sense in my opinion, and apparantly others agree with this.
We know it's a bug due to the program. People who have made eth bugged items back then shouldn't delete them. People who have made them up to this point, shouldn't either, as it was FAM. But what's so hard about saying: we all clearly know this is a bug right now, so from this point on we don't allow any new Atma bugged items anymore?
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It is very simplistic to say “No HC to SC transfer” or “no new ATMA bugged items,” but how will you know? No that anyone is policing anything here anyway.
Someone finds a nice Chilling of Vita skiller in HC. They post it as found in SC in the ITF. They trade it to you for your hard won runes - You have no way of knowing.
Similarly “Oh the eGrief Zerker on my new zealot - no I made that years ago. Yeah I may have just turned up at the forum last week, but I have been lurking and playing since the game came out.”
I’m sure someone will witter on about trust etc. but for me it is more about calculated risk.
Someone finds a nice Chilling of Vita skiller in HC. They post it as found in SC in the ITF. They trade it to you for your hard won runes - You have no way of knowing.
Similarly “Oh the eGrief Zerker on my new zealot - no I made that years ago. Yeah I may have just turned up at the forum last week, but I have been lurking and playing since the game came out.”
I’m sure someone will witter on about trust etc. but for me it is more about calculated risk.
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From a personal perspective I would argue that this community has been around for so long because of its rules, not despite its rules.
I have little interest in trading or MPing anymore, once I finish my Grail I am probably done with
D2. Almost all the people I played with have already moved on. To me personally many of the proposed changes are of little consequence as they don’t interest me. I will continue playing under the current rule set.
But I do care about this community which was built by the people I have played with over the years. Their exploits are written in the 99ers, Mat Pat & Guardian threads, the Grail and the MFOs. Their guides define how we play the game.
For me the rules are the rules and I have certainly never claimed they are 100% legit, pure, what Blizzard intended or anything else. But for me the forum was built on these rules and I see no need to change it now.
I have little interest in trading or MPing anymore, once I finish my Grail I am probably done with
D2. Almost all the people I played with have already moved on. To me personally many of the proposed changes are of little consequence as they don’t interest me. I will continue playing under the current rule set.
But I do care about this community which was built by the people I have played with over the years. Their exploits are written in the 99ers, Mat Pat & Guardian threads, the Grail and the MFOs. Their guides define how we play the game.
For me the rules are the rules and I have certainly never claimed they are 100% legit, pure, what Blizzard intended or anything else. But for me the forum was built on these rules and I see no need to change it now.
I disagree, rules develop as society does, on any scale. That is not to say that I think all of the rules need to be changed, there was just a couple of tiny ones for me, but 'the rules are the rules' just doesn't cut it. I don't think that we need any severe rule changes, but the rules should always be open to change. Not having a rule just because people can find a way around it doesn't make sense. Almost every tournament has an untwinked rule, and almost anybody could still twink their character without us knowing, we still put the rule in there.
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