SPF Reform Proposals and Discussion

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Ok, I've been re-reading through everyone's posts trying to come up with some "survey" results. I tried not to interpret people's words into their actual stance on particular issues, so many "votes" we're probably missed. Especially with the more general against change type of posts, so please weigh in where I haven't included your stance. Also, if I have misunderstood or incorrectly categorized your opinion, please let me know. Mistakes happen. :oops:

1. Discussion of mods:
Banned - @Kitteh @Gynli
Allowed -
Allowed (in sub-forum) - @fearedbliss @GalaXyHaXz @Burgomaster3 @TheNix

1.a. Referencing PlugY:
A few people brought this up, simply allowing the name "PlugY". (but, no discussion)
Banned -
Allowed - @Kitteh @necrolemming @Burgomaster3 @T72on1


2. Beta 1.07.41:
Banned -
Allowed - @fearedbliss @ffs @Kitteh
Allowed (but, must be kept separate) - @GalaXyHaXz @TheNix @T72on1

3. In-Game fingerprint/ilvl:
Banned - @necrolemming @pharphis
Allowed - @fearedbliss @GalaXyHaXz @ioupainmax @ffs @Kitteh @TheNix
Allowed (w/shift) - @T72on1

4. Trading allowed in earlier versions:
Banned -
Allowed - @fearedbliss @ffs @Burgomaster3
Allowed (but no classic-expansion) - @TheNix

5. ATMA bugged items:
Banned (delete everything tainted) -
Banned (delete only bugged items) - @fearedbliss @Gynli
Banned (going forward) - @T72on1
Allowed (banned in rules, and posting) - @ffs @TheNix @necrolemming @Kitteh
Allowed - @maxicek @MizzouFTW

I'm breaking this up into 2 posts, as I'm typing on a cell phone..:confused:
 
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Banning ATMA bugging is interesting. It is easy for those who have never done it to say, “yes the people should just delete their items.” But many people don’t have such high morals when they traded with someone who did it. If we said any character who had interacted with or received items from someone who used it should be deleted, I suspect the enthusiasm may not be so high.

I'm probably closest to B. I think that there should at least be an acknowledgement of the fact that ATMA bugging isn't a "natural" outcome, and that people should be discouraged from deliberately using it. I don't think that prohibiting people outright from doing it is a viable idea, but the tacit encouragement is kind of offputting.

This. As I said earlier, the fact that it is not condemned at all is what bothers me the most about the current state of affairs. At the very least it should be discouraged going forward. What @maxicek and @Kitteh are saying are valid points, and as I've mentioned before, I wholly agree that it could be too harsh to say all of these items need to be deleted (or even all items and characters "tainted" by them).

But as previously stated, I don't think it's too harsh at all to say that going forward, these items and characters using them should simply not be posted about. (Maybe also a recommendation to delete them. Maybe also don't trade items found using them in the future. Maybe declare intended use of such items when participating in tournaments to the host beforehand. I don't know, IMO there are many further options, but no strict necessities.) What I gather from the responses on this topic here, it seems numerous people agree that this is a viable solution. And so far I don't see any reason why this shouldn't be fixed.

@maxicek of course you're right you cannot be sure if people abide by the rules, but same goes for duping etc., you just have to trust that people follow the rules (new or old). This is a general point that doesn't apply any differently to what is discussed here as it does to any other non-enforceable rule in the world. And I agree that the SPF rules are a main reason for why this the best D2 community - but does that mean they shouldn't be improved in those aspects where they're lacking? For the vast majority of the changes discussed here, I fail to see any danger of further splitting the community.

On the contrary, it's about overcoming divides that undeniably exist here (as clearly shown by this discussion) and thereby strengthening this community. This can be achieved by finding solutions acceptable to all or at least the overwhelming majority of its members. Overall, I feel this discussion so far has been very helpful in this regard, and hopefully even more people will contribute to it. I hope in due time this leads to a questionnaire such as proposed by @DiabloTwoinDC being initiated. Then there will still be decisions to be made, by whomever. But at least they can be based on the visibility of the predominating opinions on these issues.

EDIT: As just posted as a draft a minute earlier by @DiabloTwoinDC - great initiative!
 
Did I say that I don't think the word PlugY should be used? I don't remember that, but if I did, I shouldn't have. It isn't the use of the word I'm against, its the discussion of it. I'm not ok with people saying 'Lets discuss PlugY, I like 'feature X'', but I am ok with people saying 'We don't discuss PlugY here, please check our rules sticky'. I'm not sure what my stance regarding ATMA bugged items really means, so I'm not sure if that is representing my actual views. I think it is a bit risky to be gathering people thoughts in this way as you may misinterpret people. I'm not really comfortable with me being plugged into it to be honest :rolleyes:
 
Atma Bugged Items:

I don't think the practice should be banned. I don't think people should delete their items. I don't think anything should be done about this. As Maxicek said, you have no way of knowing if an item you're trading for is legitimate. Look at Farting_Bob. He was big during my lurking days and ended up getting busted for something to do with fake runes. If you've ever traded you should assume your items and characters are tainted.

I also don't like the discouragement. It's either OK to do or it's not. Members don't get to shame other members because of their 1.07 items if it's not against the rules. Stating something is not banned but discouraged is a weak stance.
 
6. Ladder RW for 1.10:
Banned -
Allowed - @fearedbliss @ffs @Kitteh @TheNix @T72on1

7. HC to SC items:
Banned - @fearedbliss @Kitteh @Gynli @Burgomaster3 @TheNix @T72on1
Allowed -

8. "Merging" of minor patches (abcd):

Banned -
Banned (unless update was Bnet only) - @Kitteh
Allowed (for consolidation player base) - @fearedbliss
Allowed (for trading purposes) - @necrolemming
Allowed - @ffs @Burgomaster3

9. Colored runes 1.07+:

Banned - @necrolemming
Allowed - @fearedbliss @ioupainmax @ffs @Kitteh @TheNix @T72on1

10. Using map seeds:
Banned - @ffs @necrolemming @Kitteh @maxicek @Burgomaster3 @T72on1
Banned (allowed for tournaments) - @GalaXyHaXz @pharphis @Gynli
Allowed (for map recovery) - @TheNix
Allowed (personal use) - @fearedbliss
Allowed (public use) -
 
I don't see why people think seeing item level ingame or rwm in older patches is such a big deal.

I would like to hear people's arguments for these. I can't think of any that would make sense.
 
More thoughts on "ilvls in-game"

I'm only weakly against this, but...
This currently being banned is actually one of the only ways we can catch people using PlugY. I recently saw a screenshot of such.
 
More thoughts on "ilvls in-game"

I'm only weakly against this, but...
This currently being banned is actually one of the only ways we can catch people using PlugY. I recently saw a screenshot of such.


Hmmmm, that is interesting actually, and important. Is there really no other way that we can tell? Apart from, obviously, somebody having a torch :rolleyes:
 
More thoughts on "ilvls in-game"

I'm only weakly against this, but...
This currently being banned is actually one of the only ways we can catch people using PlugY. I recently saw a screenshot of such.

That's an interesting point. @GalaXyHaXz would the display look identical? Or, is there something that would distinguish your ilvl display from that of PlugY?
 
Someone having a "soul stone" in their inventory o_O
 
@DiabloTwoinDC regarding your ATMA bugging categories, I don't think "Banned (going forward)" and "Allowed (banned in rules, and posting)" are actually different in essence. The gradient is more like (1) allowed as it is now (2) not allowed going forward, but no deletion/trade prohibition of bugged items or "everything tainted" and (3) not allowed going forward and deletion of bugged items (but nothing else) and (4) banned and deletion of "everything tainted" necessary. The rest is just nuance as opposed to actual difference in substance, so IMO this can be simplified for these purposes at least.

Also -- just in case you didn't intend to this anyway -- may I suggest to combine your two posts into a separate thread that will be updated along the way? Not meaning to pollute the forums, but it would make it much tidier and easier to keep track of and update than to always get back to these posts (and people can state also there if they feel wrongly classified). So that while discussion could take place here, the other thread will be dedicated to just the survey?
 
I'm so surprised that the issue of trust is being brought up when talking about atma bugged items or HC to SC transer. Why is that any different than posting about a HR you found? There is no way to tell if it really dropped, or if you duped it, or if it's an old one you just dropped on the ground. It's all a matter of trust.
 
The no RWM in 1.10 comment needs to be clarified.

I’m not sure where no RWM in 1.10 came from either, as I used to use it (and made the Mac version) in 1.10d. Unless you are talking about 1.10a/s where ladder runewords were never enabled.

RWM is allowed in 1.10 but not the betas, or please quote a mod post that says it is not.

Edit: Can someone also please explain to this conservative dinosaur when the hell singling is? I thought it was just some easy install RWM for people who can’t do the text file mod?
 
@DiabloTwoinDC Plugy displays the item level directly after the item name. My method adds it after the "level required" (see screenshot I posted on first page). So in that case, you can tell if someone is using Plugy 99% of the time. Also, if Plugy users were smart, they'd disable or hide anything before posting a screenshot. Just saying...

Edit: I want to clarify I'm not condoning or giving advice to them, just pointing out that the ilvl alone wouldn't be a sufficient way to catch them.
 
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@maxicek Singling is a consolidation of the most useful FAM mods. When I started the recommended list of mods were all scattered and some of the links didn't even work. Time and time again I saw people (And still see people) requesting "Where can I get this because it's recommended but can't find it". Singling consolidated all of this, or at least it started that way. Over the years I've listened to people's feedback and implemented other stuff to it like the critical CPU fixes that caused Diablo II to use up to 100% CPU on a modern processor (@GalaXyHaXz helped a lot with this fix and other modders around that world that had CPU problems as well). Or other things like allowing HC character creation without beating the game in SC on earlier versions, Not having to use the CD or ISO in patches before 1.12 (As long as you have a legit key), and preventing the window from automatically minimizing itself pre-1.13 which was really annoying since if you are playing in window mode, and you click out, the whole game minimizes. This was fixed in 1.13. @GalaXyHaXz and I spent a good amount of time trying to come up with a good and stable solution for the community. So Singling has grown to be not only a consolidation of FAM, but also a reflection of what the community wants. So things like two sets of Color Rune "Profiles" could be available for people that could see the normal D2 colors (Like in 1.13) or if they need to be changed for Color Blind people. This could be part of Singling as an optional addition. By that same light, the same types of questions were also being asked for patches. "Oh I want to play 1.09b, I want to play 1.07, 1.10s", etc, but I can't find the Patcher on Blizzard's website (Since Blizzard blocked FTP access). So I made Bliss Complete Collection which has the switcher and all of the Classic -and- Expansion patches in their vanilla state. That way people could pick if they want to play Vanilla, and optionally they can use Singling if they want FAM. I also mirrored all the original patches here if people didn't want to use my collection.

@T72on1 @TheNix On the map seeds comment, I'm ok with people not agreeing with me on using map seeds in general for -personal use-. However one thing that I believe should be allowed is that you should be allowed to use your map seed to mule. It doesn't make sense that just because I and a few others don't use GoMule/ATMA, we -have to- lose our map every time we want to mule. Everyone else uses GoMule/ATMA and they can avoid this penalty. It seems cheating to me for people to use GoMule/ATMA and then not let people have a legit way of recovering their map. So basically we are stuck on one map while everyone else can MF, mule safely with GoMule/ATMA and then continue to be on their same map. So if we are going to change anything at all in relation to map seeds, at least let it be for the following 3 reasons:

1. For recovery purposes (Current rule. If you lose your map by mistake, maybe you misclicked difficulty selection, etc)
2. For muling purposes
3. If you are going to be MP with others. (If your friend wants to play with you and you already have a map where you have your personal journey going on, then you should be allowed to return to that SP map after you finish MP with your friend, as to not discourage MP use just because it's either your friend or your map).

If using map seed for muling purposes won't be allowed, I don't think it's fair for people to mule items away from characters while keeping the map. Thus people that transfer items with a character should at least emulate the "lost map" behavior and re-roll their map on every mule/item transfer that happens in ATMA/GoMule. That would keep the behavior consistent in both situations.

@DiabloTwoinDC Nice initiative. I think as someone else mentioned, it would be good to put this in a separate thread and just update that same message over and over again. I can link to that thread in my OP so people could quickly see the latest results.

@pharphis I've spent a good month of my life dealing with the PlugY code base when I forked it in order to create a version of PlugY that didn't have any of the stuff the SPF didn't want, so I know the code base decently well. This Item Level problem isn't an issue. Sure PlugY displays this, but plugy displays A LOT of other things.

- Infinite Stash
- Stat respec buttons in character sheet
- "More stats" button in character sheet
- Skill respec button in skill tree page

Those are some of the visual indications that can be used.

@GalaXyHaXz Thinking about it again, I don't think Shift should be used for the implementation since we are already clicking a lot in the game and already susceptible to carpal tunnel. It's only 1 stat (Unless people also want fingerprint in the list), since it's only 1, we should just add it directly on the screen and save the key press as some other people were saying. The text as white (your current implementation) is fine as it is, people that have the PlugY source code (since it's already public) could modify their stuff to look exactly like ours even if we did change the color or do something.

@MizzouFTW ATMA bugs should be banned completely and people should delete those items since they can be effectively considered Hero Editor items (Just generated through ATMA as part of a bug). People shouldn't have to delete their characters or anything else. Just the item in question.
 
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I don't think "Banned (going forward)" and "Allowed (banned in rules, and posting)" are actually different in essence.

They are very similar, but I didn't want to lump opinions together where people may see distinctions. I heard two options, both would have NO affect on current items/characters. But, one was simply a post/rule change that would effectively stop "encouraging" ATMA bugging. The second, being a ban on future items. I will just combine them though, simplify simplify. :)

Also -- just in case you didn't intend to this anyway -- may I suggest to combine your two posts into a separate thread that will be updated along the way?

I kinda had that thought as I was putting the list together. Will try to put that up shortly.
 
They are very similar, but I didn't want to lump opinions together where people may see distinctions. I heard two options, both would have NO affect on current items/characters. But, one was simply a post/rule change that would effectively stop "encouraging" ATMA bugging.

By "discouraging" I at least meant "this is not allowed going forward, and may not be posted about (including previously created items), but it's not 'banned' in a way that deletion of items or characters is necessarily required". Not some kind of "please be so kind and consider not doing this in the future" as @MizzouFTW seemed to have understood. :) Nuances anyway... I guess combining them or not is not much of a difference, any of these categorizations are perfectly fine for our purposes of providing a general overview.
 
@fearedbliss Thanks for the explanation. Why do you not use ATMA / GoMule? I have trouble resolving why you don’t use these, yet think modifying the game directly (to display ilvl) is ok? Even more so the map seed thing.

If you want coding projects I can think of many that would be more beneficial to the community - Getting GoMule to work with everything from 1.00 onwards for example.
 
gomule for 1.07 would be amazing...

and although it's not a big consideration to the ilvl thing, since I brought it up as a means with which we identify plugy users I thought I should accept the reasonable difference that display order is different. Good enough for me!
 
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