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Vessel of Hatred

SPF Reform Proposals and Discussion

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@maxicek Yesterday I very clearly gave you specifically a detailed response as to why I don't use GoMule or ATMA. @GalaXyHaXz also replied with a very similar view point.

My reply to you:
https://www.purediablo.com/forums/t...als-and-discussion.960385/page-5#post-8826819

@GalaXyHaXz post:
https://www.purediablo.com/forums/t...als-and-discussion.960385/page-5#post-8826859

EDIT: also just because an application is written in Java doesn't automatically make it portable. If the author of the Java application wrote their application with a specific Operating system in mind, they will have tailored the behavior and expectations of that application to that OS which will break compatibility. Things like accessing the registry, folder path layout, system calls. Linux doesn't have a registry like Windows. BVS is a good example of a non portable Java application. When a player switches versions, I need to modify the windows registry so that the Save Path points to the correct version. Also Java itself has a library called JNI (Java Native Interface) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Java_Native_Interface

That is used when a Java developer needs to access functionality that's specific/native to that operating system. Using this library breaks portability.
 
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Actually, you don't need a third party program to see the map seed. It can all be done without -any- mods or third party programs.

Check "D2MMDDYY.txt" in your D2 directory. Notice this line? (it get's updated each game)
Code: 
09:56:16.207  Seed: *REDACTED*
09:56:24.235  [D2CLIENT]  Start closing at 1758537525.
 
@maxicek
There was a talk about Linux and what not earlier, so I assumed some people just couldn't run it. Also, do you need another program to read the map seed? I thought the mapseed commands just goes along with -direct and -txt in the shortcut. and you could somehow see it in game.

@fearedbliss
I just want to point out that any voluntary reroll of the map is ultimately the player's responsibility. To me, playing MP with a friend and going to another difficulty for a quest reward are the same; you knew it would reroll the map before going in, and you voluntarily rerolled the map. If you did nothing in the MP session - no EXP, items, quest rewards etc - then I guess that is more like 'accidentally' playing MP, and the SPF rule already allows recovery of map seed when accidentally lost.

EDIT: @GalaXyHaXz
cool. lol. I learned something new today.
 
@Gynli I agree that that situation is ultimately voluntarily which is why I said I'm fine living without that even if I don't completely agree with it because I'm looking at it from a different perspective (playing with friends on a parallel MP game shouldn't affect SP). However, since people seem to be ok with using it for muling purposes or accidental map recovery, I'm ok with that community decision. Accidental map seed lost to me means if you misclick your difficulty, that was an error and wasn't meant to happen.

@GalaXyHaXz posted one way to read the map seed without a third party app. ATMA displays the map seed as well, and so does my Alpaca information dumper (basically the dump section of GoMule which is extracted and added the ATMA map seed information to it).
 
@fearedbliss
just meant anything you do in the MP session does affect SP. Any exp, items found, quests completed all does affect your character to some degree. And if we allow that to be okay, then I just might MP to reset my stats/skills w/o losing my map...

Also, it's not a decision, yet. =P
 
@Gynli that's a little bit extreme given that I'm just talking about the map and not your character development.

I know it isn't a decision yet, I'm just saying I am willing to compromise if that is the final decision.
 
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@fearedbliss Thanks for repeating that, I'm not so old that I can't read. Just because you explained your stance means that I have to agree with it.

@Gynli Silospen used to play in Linux (and I have GoMule running in Linux, Win2K and Mac) so there is no technical restriction.
 
@fearedbliss Basically it comes down to the fact you don't want to use someone else's third party application, you want to use your own. Maybe if you played the game more you may see the advantages of GoMule.
 
Speaking of which I am going to take my own advice and play the game instead of writing in this thread. I have said my piece, maybe too much. I won't write any more in this thread or the survey.

In the unlikely event that something comes of this thread consider that you do not just write rules for now you write them for the future. You are far likely to get more people in this forum as returning members, who played under the rules as they are now, than new players attracted by these changes. Not everything new is progress, don't alienate people who have played for years.
 
maxicek said:
Speaking of which I am going to take my own advice and play the game instead of writing in this thread. I have said my piece, maybe too much. I won't write any more in this thread or the survey.

In the unlikely event that something comes of this thread consider that you do not just write rules for now you write them for the future. You are far likely to get more people in this forum as returning members, who played under the rules as they are now, than new players attracted by these changes. Not everything new is progress, don't alienate people who have played for years.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately you didn't share what you think could be so alienating -- if any changes did at all occur following this discussion -- instead of returning members coming back finding that things have improved. You simply didn't say. On most of the points brought up here, your responses just conveyed a general rejection of any change whatsoever, without bringing forward arguments for the current state of affairs or against this or that proposed change. Most here agree with the current SPF rules on the majority of these issues, but feel the need to improve others. But you're essentially rejecting the very discussion that many members - old and new - feel the need to take place, and to some degree that does give the impression you don’t consider their opinions to be of value. Just a bit unfortunate IMO.
 
map is overriden as soon as you enter a game with a different map, so whether you host or not.
 
fearedbliss,

I edited that post like 10 or 15 minutes after I made it, well before Kitteh posted his meme pic. The idea that I would edit any post in response to Kitteh "calling me out" (lol) is laughable in and of itself.

The gist of the post still stands though. You've done more to ruin this community with your hacks than anyone has, apart from Thyiad. Don't think people don't remember how you tried to sneak unapproved changes you wanted into your very first approved mod, way back in 2011 or whenever it was. The fact that you're PMing non-cheating (by SPF standards) members asking for their legit map seeds shows you have absolutely no clue about anything and really should be on another forum.
 
@Kitteh Don't include me with him. I mentioned an accurate historical event, not in a childish way in any way. When I mentioned it it was only in response to explain a comment I made to some other community members. Not to continue some old comment/arguments. Just because I don't talk about it doesn't mean I don't remember.

@Fabian You think I've ruined it and I think I'm pushing it forward. It's a matter of perspective, I don't apologize if you don't feel welcomed anymore. Nobody is kicking you out personally other than yourself.

Sneaking changes? I call slander. Early development of mods usually always have some sort of unbalance, which was quickly corrected with user feedback.

Also messaging you about the map seed as I clearly revealed my exact comment to the community that I sent you clearly stated that this would only be used in the Modern league which was separate from Vanilla and FAM. The fact that you feel you are legit for a freaking map seed in a video game is laughable. Get off your high horse you sound like a freaking child. "hey daddy, look I have this golden seed, nobody else has it, I feel so cool and valuable, but then this kid spoke to me at school and said if I can share it, I felt angry because I didn't want to share my golden seed, I want to be the only one in the whole wide world with it". Please dude. Go enjoy your virtual seed alone. You think this is such a big deal and event in your life that you keep talking about it. I'm guessing nothing else important is happening. It's nice that I don't have to like everyone in a community. Freedom.
 
Dang, this is a long thread. I will throw my input in. I will state that since reddit is easy to use on a phone, I have done more reading and posting there by far than here. Also, I despise both d2jsp and plugy, so it has been mostly trollling. I just love it when people link to guides on d2jsp, always gives me a good chuckle. I am not a saint.

Map seed: no, current system is the way it should be. Lose it, tough luck. Salivating over the map seeds of others is kind of required in the competitions here. Misclicks can be punished like any other misclick in game. No one has resurrected from one bad HC teleport.

Item versions: Who gives a $%$, not enough people play different versions of older patches to care. Major versions should be separate, of course. I think this can go both for trading and mp'ing.

Different colored stuff: I am all for this. Anything to make it easier or more enjoyable sifting through loot. There is no technical reason why, and I don't think people would care too much that someone's efficiency in 2018 is 0.05% greater than someone's efficiency in 2012 because amethysts have a different color than other gems.

Atma bugging: Should be banned, and atma bugged items should be disallowed and deleted. Again, it is 2018, and most of the people who have atma bugged weapons have the wealth to remake their weapon legit. If they don't have the wealth I think we can find someone to donate the wealth to make their weapons legit. Then we end that chapter forever. Honestly, we could appoint an Atma Bug Czar who can "clean" these items for the community and I would be OK with that. Just fix it.

Item level: Sure, what is the harm.

1.10 Ladder only runewords: This I kind of go back and forth on. This generally falls under the "I don't care about minor differences between patches", but since 1.10 and 1.11 are so similar, it holds a certain nostalgic reason to not allow them in 1.10 and people can use them in 1.11. But I think the "no one plays these anyways so who cares" eventually wins. For those who don't know, the ladder only runewords were added in a later season than original 1.10. So the first time we all laid eyes on uber diablo and synergies, our best melee weapon was botd, not grief. No infinity.

maxicek said:
@ffs Sorry but we did the whole ATMA bugging debate about ten years ago. What are you proposing, that everyone who made ATMA bugged items in the intervening period should just delete them?

As I have said before, it was not the SPF’s finest hour, but what’s done is done. I’m fed up with constant attempts to re open this topic. Same goes for bring items forward from earlier versions, which was happening before I even joined the SPF.
Click to expand...

10 years is a long time ago. We can just fix it already.

maxicek said:
Historially the moderators word was law. The fact that we are basically moderator less means we are in uncharted waters.

Trading will not be revived by a few rule changes. Sure there will be a few trades, but for PvM it quickly gets to the point where you do not need to trade. PvP has always driven the big trades, just look at @nulio’s threads. An Amber SC of Vita may be nice on a PvM character, but only a PvPer will pay the big bucks.

Banning ATMA bugging is interesting. It is easy for those who have never done it to say, “yes the people should just delete their items.” But many people don’t have such high morals when they traded with someone who did it. If we said any character who had interacted with or received items from someone who used it should be deleted, I suspect the enthusiasm may not be so high.
Click to expand...

I don't think we should punish people who use them, just stop their use now. No time like the present.

pharphis said:
gomule for 1.07 would be amazing...

and although it's not a big consideration to the ilvl thing, since I brought it up as a means with which we identify plugy users I thought I should accept the reasonable difference that display order is different. Good enough for me!
Click to expand...

GoMule for 1.07 was fixed by mattinm 5+ years ago, but I don' t think anyone ever found the original author to get permissions. And then it just kind of died.
 
@thefranklin Thanks for the feedback! Make sure to also put your vote in the survey itself (link in OP).

For map seeds, yup, I think most of us (Even myself at this point) agree map seeds should be banned and kept as current for the most part. Only exception I'm advocating for is to allow people to mule. A few other people and myself don't use GoMule/ATMA so when we mule we lose our map, however people that use GoMule/ATMA are avoiding this map lose (Which is one of the reasons people use GoMule/ATMA, not just to efficiently mule, but also to keep their map while they are muling). This would allow everyone no matter how they play to have a consistent rule.

for 1.10 runewords, That makes sense, but the point is that ultimately there was a good period of time in 1.10f where ladder runewords were available on bnet only (But not on SP). People _still_ cant use ladder runewords on SP in 1.11, 1.12, 1.13, and 1.14. These need to still be explicitly enabled through RWM with those versions. We are hoping that maybe in 1.15 Blizzard can finally enable ladder runewords in Single Player.
 
As someone who has used Atma for almost 15 years now, that is very deeply connected to me. I sort of get why people might not want external applications, perhaps a bit more if you are a dev yourself and don't want to use someone else's code. Before this, I'd never heard of people "going back" to a map. If you liked a map, you kept it, and you clicked carefully. If you wanted a different map, and you still wanted it, you could just make another character these days and mule gear. I kept my original 1.07 map for many years. I got quite a few lovely things from it, but then it wasn't dropping what I needed, so I had to change. I've lost that map, but I could get another that would eventually drop things again if I chose.

For me and the Atma bugging thing. I remember being around before people found out that it was actually a bug by an external application. During that time, many active forumites. These people were my friends, those I'd look up to and they would use this, they got the gear which was better than other stuff and I wanted it.

One of the only main reasons I don't have it myself is I didn't spend the runes to do it. I'm not saying i'm about to, its probably just on my long term bucket list to make some bigger number gear one day.

Btw, I have the creator on GoMule on facebook and could message him if needed. Pretty sure it was him who made it :p Simon Spencer?

I'm not a fan of how some of these recent posts in the thread are going. You are "attacking the player, not the ball" and it renders your arguments meaningless in the process.

For what its worth, one of the main reason this place hasn't died, or gone stale is down to three things:
1) Existing users haven't stopped playing the game, or moved onto others
2) Fairly constant stream of new people/lurkers. Content makes more content.
3) Those who do go on a break, come back after and find other still talking, so post again.

Other places might have no one talking, or a small handful playing in a year. Other people might say "wow I remember this" but they don't come back in to play themselves. Also they are in more obscure places of the internet and not easy to find.

Also I get why people don't like things like PlugY, but when you have someone famous like MrLlamaSC posting lots of videos, he has over 31K subscribers and as far as I can tell, apart from PlugY, he is playing FAM. One of his recent grail finds has over 7000 people watching that video. If 10%, or hell, even 1% of those people came here, read, posted and contributed, we could be in a good place.

I think a sub forum could potentially work for those type of people. Something along the lines of FAM except for PlugY. Keep the main SPF for FAM. A sub forum would be for people to discuss things without polluting the regular SPF. We know that people have SC and HC characters. Most of us keep them completely seperate. Some of the sub forum people may wish to have a clean install JUST for FAM. Or they may ditch that and restart clean vanilla or FAM.

One final hypothetical thought, imagine if a high profile D2 streamer talked about this place, or had a link to it. It would be interesting to know how many active players don't know about this place, but lowered numbers of posters is a challege now.
 
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