The SPF I know

[fearedbliss]

Lol @darkstarhub thats not what the world editor is for!!

I always took a peek at it on turn 1 though.. I've played waaay too many games, getting off to a good start, only to find out there is no iron/copper to be found. Then, you're pretty much stuck with Archers for 2000+ years.

It's only two thousand years!

 

[D2DC]

It's only two thousand years!

Also, I usually play as Roman. What's the point if I can't build Praetorian?

 

[Rey]

I´m glad this topic is now open for debating. I´m pretty new to this community, so I can´t say much about the history of the community and how it evolved.
When I started playing D2 SP in early 2016 I haven´t thought about using any third-party programms at all, I even considered the /players2-8 command as cheating. While leveling my sorc I soon started to read guides, since I haven´t played the game for about 10 years. I read about the runewords Spirit and Infinity and found out that they are not available on SP. Same goes for Ubers and the torch.
While farming items and runes I found loads of nice small charms and skillers and items like HoZ and Azurewrath, which I had to delete because using muling programms or an extended stash would go against my rules. Without Infinity I wasn´t able to play my Lightning Sorc effectively through hell - especially not those areas which would get me to lvl 99.

In this forum I read about those mods and after a few months I decided that to get GoMule, instead of deleting all this items and never being able to play untwinked characters. This made my gaming experience way better, while not changing anything ingame (Though this is arguably as well) .

I also read about time travelling and those great items you could get there, or how fast you could level there. For me that´s kinda a grey area, it´s not that you enhance your gameplay through modifications, but also not the way blizzard intended it. Some items there are definitely overpowered, but I guess not that much, that they are real game changers if you use them in 1.13+.
What concerns me most is that it should be quite easy to get to level 99 in 1.09 - that kind of took some of my motivation to level a char to 99 in 1.14 away.

RVM is in my opinion not legit, same goes for ATMA bugging. I don´t really see the difference to use modes which enable Ubers or Diablo clone.
Especially RVM - it´s a bit annoying to read about all those great runewords all the time, which aren´t available to me.
But obviously that was my decision, and I´m in no position to argue against the legitimacy of that modes in this forum - just some thoughts

 

[helvete1]

I don't think any of us have begun to actually use the hybrid rares; we're pretty much just mapping uncharted territory. They're banned from trading anyway, since their origin is pre-LoD.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

I don't see how I cannot. Look back at this thread - everyone except me seems to feel that time-travel items are acceptable.

While I won't call out how anybody else is playing (seeing as I am a relative noob to SPF, and to me how they play is their own business because I don't engage in trading), I do see your point. My personal creed is to try and replicate the battle.net experience as much as possible (sans the bots, lag, and rudeness that is teeming there). So I use RWM for access to the rune words that are available in ladder play, and GoMule so that I can mule items (I used to self mule on-line, waiting 5+ minutes to perm a game and then cautiously and slowly mule so I didn't lose the game, so GoMule allows me the same result). It's been pointed out that the other program that "recreates" Ubers and Pandemonium does not replicate the battle.net experience, so I choose not to use said program. I don't want a "half" version of what is on battle.net, just for the sake of having an apparently easier access to one of two charms. If I'm not able to do it on battle.net within the rules, I won't do it here.

If I'm understanding this time travel correctly (and it's entirely probable I'm not ), it's something that would only occur in battle.net as a one-off event per version update - when you log in and update to a new version, then any game play from that point on would be at the new version, so your old characters are in effect locked from play until you migrate them to the new version, and any new characters you create are at the new version? In that case you really couldn't plan anything towards that migration, including hours and hours of searching for items to "travel" with, could you?

Regardless, I echo what has been said about the civility of the discussion here. In this era of hyperbole, flaming, flinging poo at people from behind one's keyboard and monitor, and general social media toxicity, it's refreshing to have a frank yet respectful discussion about something that could easily get out of hand elsewhere. It's what drew me to start posting here (as infrequently as I do) less than a year ago. I salute you all!

 

[helvete1]

I would argue that we get to have the time traveled items *because* we give up the anni, torch and massive (likely duped) trade pool which battle.net grants. We also get to keep our maps, even when we mule, as a privilege for missing out on the online content.

We also get the players command (1.09 and up) to get more drops, exp and more difficult enemies, and we get total peace in our games, as opposed to MFing in duelling games online, etc. to get the same effect.

We even get to see the ilvls of items via our muling applications, and we have enabled the runewords we've been robbed of for more than ten years.

All of this is fine by me, as it takes tremendous effort and luck to get the overpowered time traveled items. We're talking hundreds of hours, just to get the runes for say 100 1.07 ring crafts, and even then, you could still end up with nothing to show for.

Where I personally draw the line is when we start fixing bugs or adding in "missing" features of the patch. Like adding the players command to pre-1.09 or color all and every rune. Even the crashes were part of those patches, and my personal opinion is that you may get burnt if you want to play with fire. I'm fine with the RWM for 1.10+, and the RRM for 1.10-1.12 as they are indeed FAM. Those rules I've been going on about. They matter to me. I don't trade, even if I'm allowed to, because trading (to me) isn't a part of the SP deal. Unless I join an actual TCP/IP game. But then it's MP, right? I don't have a problem with other people trading; in fact it makes me happy, because that may compell people to stay with this forum and this game. I would, however, find it odd if someone showed off the 1.07 shako they just traded for with pgems and low runes in the IFT. But to each their own. I could manage to scroll past such a post, without comment.

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

@helvete I agree with your first set of points. However, you seem to draw the line at one of the addons I made. Therefore, I have some supporting points.

First is regarding the players command. As others have said, we have to give up certain features in SP. Back in some older patches, one could play on battle net with one instance of the game. They could join a game with 7 players and get good XP and drops. I think by the logic of doing only what the bnet players get, and the players command is suitable in older patches. All we do is have the same experience.

Judging by the number of PMs I've received asking for player command mods in older patches, vs the fact that only ~50 people are active on the forums anymore, I'd say a good portion of people agree and don't have problems with this addition.

As for something like colored runes, this is FAM and is a personal preference. No one bothered to make a mod before mine because runes were generally useless in older patches.

Crashing depends on the circumstance. If it is an unavoidable and frequent crash, which ruins gameplay, then I would prefer it not happen. I like to think of an alternate universe where Blizzard kept the game at 1.07 or 1.09, but fixed all the bugs with it. Many serious issues get hot fixed on the realms but don't make it into SP until the next patch.

For this reason, I am going to bring up patch 1.08. This is a very unpopular patch due to nerfs and regressions. However, historically it was a great patch on battle net. Blizzard was able to quickly hot fix problems that made the patch suck. But these fixes didn't hit SP until 1.09. Therefore, I feel justified in modding the game, to the extent being the same as the battle net experience based on know facts. I never had the chance to play the game back then, and many others didn't either. So relieving the glory days is something I like to do.

 

[helvete1]

Yes, but then again the map would be randomized... As with everything else, this comes down to what each and every player wants to experience, and whether or not they feel to various extent that others have misguided views as to how the game should be played. Let's be frank; not even Blizzard has a clear idea about that! So I won't be going around telling people that what they choose to do is wrong. Unless it's on this forum, and what they're doing is against the rules set down here.

Everything else is fine by me. If I agree or not is my business. You may ask me how I feel, and I will gladly tell you, but as with anyone else telling you what they believe, you should see it as what it is: An opinion. Go find your own truth.

 

[PhineasB1]

Very interesting discussion, and I echo the praise for the civil tone.

There is a range of views, and the line drawn differs a lot. I suspect it won't be possible to "resolve" the question without pushing some people to leave the forum -- either "it's fine" or "it's prohibited" would leave people with stronger views on each end of the range feeling excluded. And that would be a shame given how much activity has dropped even since I became more active last year, and certainly compared to a couple years back when I was just lurking, much less further back.

I think it would be worth discussing whether there are there some practices we could adopt that help each user enjoy the forum (as they enjoy it), as several others mentioned in earlier posts?

For example, maybe an IFT just for time traveling/forwarded items, or keep item postings from those patches to the threads with info on the patch. People who like that can view that thread, while people who don't can avoid it easily. A single IFT thread makes it harder to avoid if it's not your cup of tea. And, given the lower activity, it can sometimes feel like the bulk of the postings are about things beyond just straight 1.13/1.14 FAM.

The downside is that the forum isn't as active as in the past, it may harder to sustain multiple threads like that. As an alternative, maybe it's having a practice of early in a post disclosing if it's focused on an earlier patch or using spoilers.

I personally don't have an issue to just scroll through or skip posts that are about things I don't find interesting. But I also think it's important to appreciate that may not work for everyone, particularly if a large number or majority of posts are about playthroughs or items that are outside current patch FAM.

Anyways, just an idea. Not sure if it's really feasible. I may be too focused just on IFT or playthrough threads, as it doesn't solve for forwarded items in a player's stash, etc. But, as others have noted, that has been a part of forum for so long.

So I think it might be worth thinking about the higher frequency/volume issues where separate threads or clearer labeling early in post (as I've noticed @Grape has done in the IFT lately with v1.07) could make it a more enjoyable experience for people who aren't into those things.

 

[GooberGrape1]

As previously mentioned, I would support an all-inclusive mod that opened a game with all approved game mods preinstalled. Perhaps some kind of front end that worked similar to Bliss version switcher, with some toggleable pulldowns such as version, players setting, RRM and RWM. Incorporate the gomule/ATMA style stash into the game itself rather than logging in/out. Add stats like MF% and ilvl to items ingame. These are all just ideas but it's not a bad idea to roll them all into one tortilla shell. Then it solves the problem or what mods do you run. You either run FAM or you are straight off the disk vanilla. What I would NOT like to see is a tessellated kaleidoscope of thousands of iterations of "well I run RRM in 1.07 and RWM in 1.13d but I use time traveling to gamble SOJ in 1.0 which I forwarded to 1.06b etc etc". That makes for a divided community, and I would rather stand united. Having said all that huge paragraph I'm also OK with it staying the way it is, I just think if we do decide to move forward I think a unified mod wouldn't be a bad idea.

EDIT to be clear I am referring to all currently allowed FAM addons. I do not support reverse engineering of beta patches, unintentional breaking of loot tables, or artistic interpretations of things like Ubers or what the 1.08 patch might have been after multiple hotfixes. Just the current state of FAM mods in an organized package.

 

[TheNix]

When I first came to the SPF in 2003, I could not believe the amount of cheating and hypocrisy that went on. Third party programs were used to mule items off characters and trading between non-partied characters was rampant. On the other hand the "players" command was being routinely abused while the other command (the one that allows you to start a character at level 30) was frowned upon. It took some time before I succumbed to the evils of ATMA and even longer before I started to trade items.

I remember the acrimony of the ATMA wars and the first major schism where there were mass bannings and rival forums created; which one reason why I am pleasantly surprised by the civil tone of this discussion. At its peak I was an active member of no less than five different Diablo 2 forums. All had different rules and different standards, and your were easily able to find a forum that suited your playing type.

Unlike Bnet where you were forced to play the current patch, SP gave us the opportunity to pick and choose what we wanted to play but this at the expense of being excluded from a certain amount of content. So the RWM was born, as was the Voldemort program that allowed you to access the ubers. It was decided by the community that the RWM was acceptable because it did not have the editing capabilities of the Voldemort program. So another schism was born between the "vanilla" played and the RWM players; throw the RRM into the mix and we had a complete balls-up. The SPF community worked its way though this.

The relative ease of time travel has added another dimension to the mix. Although I have never been super comfortable with the idea, I have at times brought items forward from 1.07, in the case of an eth berserker's axe for my BoTD, and 1.09, a Raven Claw bow to help with early levelling. What I never felt comfortable about was Hellforge running in classic (to skip Act 5) and then bringing the runes forward, but the community found acceptable so I held my peace. E-bugging was a different kettle of fish, the community had to swallow a bitter pill of either starting clear or allowing the items to remain. For better or worse, the items were allowed.

I don't know anything about these "hybrid" whatevers, but I do know that they are just the last in a long line of schisms we have had to deal with. What is important to remember is that of the five Diablo 2 communities that I once belonged to, two are completely defunct, the official Blizzard forums have relegated Diablo 2 to a backwater forum where almost all posts are people asking why they have been banned from bnet and replies that say "piss off you cheater", and the final forum has a single post about Diablo 2 in a section for "other games". This site is quite literally the last one standing. Up until now, everything that we have added to the game has generally added to the longevity of the game (I know I would never have complete even a half a dozen pats/mats without ATMA/GoMule, the RWM and the ability to time travel). I am not saying that there have been some that have disenfranchised along the way, but decisions need to be made to keep this community alive because we will not survive another schism!

We great respect to Thy, decisions that need to be taken to keep this community alive are too big for a single person to make; we must make the decision as a community what we are willing to accept and it is the job of the moderator to enforce the communities' decision.

 

[helvete1]

@ThomasJohnsen About tournament unfairness, it could be easily stipulated in tournament rules "no items or characters originating earlier than patch X allowed"

- If X is 1.07, the tournament disallows easymode SoJ, the second strongest MF jewelry, and any hybrid rares.
- If X is 1.08, the tournament disallows crafts with magic-only affixes and/or 3 sockets
- If X is 1.09, the tournament disallows "1.07 eth" weapons, the MPK rings, the OP "vita" uniques and damage charms. And any easymode leveled characters.
- If X is 1.10 final, the tournament disallows beta BKWB, 4, 5 or 6 socket magic items, and the beta runewords

Each successive patch would of course also disallow anything disallowed in the previous patches.

As for "taint", resulting in faster/better MF runs to get current patch gear, think of just how many pit runs could have been done while someone:
- spent tens of hours playing through 1.00 from scratch, with all its bugs and underpowered items
- spent hundreds of hours leveling their character to optimize gambling
- spent hundreds more hours actually goldfarming and gambling, which is much more of a hassle than in 1.07+
- spent hours thinking about what items to keep, and what to ignore, since the odds for getting something which would be the definite best item in that slot would be highly unlikely
- spent hundreds of hours in 1.07 racking, farming, crafting and banging their head against the wall when they finally found a decent rack and it drops 40 greens before the unique
- spent tens or hundreds of hours getting that +2 all beta BKWB to get a very slight edge in their 1.13+ runs

Probably like 100 000 runs, for the most effective runners around here.

So as long as the time-travel gear isn't used IN the tournament, I don't see how it has any effect on it.

 

[Lynchgrinch]

Amazing that people are being so civil. I love that.

- I'm pretty much in the camp that time travel is okay because of the absolutely INSANE amount of time and effort that goes into farming those previous patch items. it adds a new edge to the people who have done everything else (got the grail, all the best runewords etc etc). dammit, if you have 2 beta BKWBs you BLOODY WELL DESERVE THEM!

-ATMA bug seems a bit too far but whatever. It's here, it's been done. Cool.

- I think that @helvete's suggestion of separating the trade pools seems very reasonable. I'm all for it....not that I trade. Also, thanks for taking the time to make this thread.

- I'd love to see the SPF accept a mod variation that allows Ladder quests and runewords, however I totally understand why the current mods that do this haven't been accepted and actually tend to agree. I personally think that Blizzard should be crucified for not supporting the SP community. If they had just done their jobs mods like [NAME REDACTED] would never have been made...and let's make no mistake, they were inevitable and actually really cool/useful if not for the character editing haxors they also present.

-I'd love to see some sort of compiled, easy to use FAM package. It would make my day.

-I never saw Thy's original post, but I'm glad people are discussing this. Seems like there is a bit of consensus that the rules need changed, redefined or re-examined in some way. I think @TheNix said it well, modding this forum isn't a one man job.

EDIT: What the hell is a hybrid rare?

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

@helvete: I am not really parttaking in the discussion anymore. It seems I'm pretty much alone in my opinion on time-travel items. Arguing to implement/enforce/... a single person's preferences against a community with completely different preferences is an anal waste of space and time for all involved. Initially, and based on the number of likes @Thyiad post got, combined with the number of untwinked tourneys SPF hosts, I was under the impression that this community had alot of purists (again - what word to use for players that don't use items from other patches?), but it seems that I made a misjudgement. I shall refrain from making any more comments and leave the space for members with opinions that represent more members.

 

[Lynchgrinch]

@ThomasJohnsen, I think there are a lot of 'Purists' around still, for what ever reason they just aren't saying much. Untwinked tourneys are a different ballgame altogether, I feel. people want a challenge when they sign up for tourneys. The feeling that there are a buinch of you all attempting something absolutely mental is a good one!...during normal gameplay they want to explore and have fun and try funky concepts for themselves.

 

[helvete1]

What the hell is a hybrid rare?

It's a term I started using about pre-LoD rares directly forwarded into post-1.09 patches. With 1.10, blizzard broke something which retained stats on pre-LoD rares, scrambling their stats and names. However, the new stats are taken from both the old rare affix pool AND the new, which can cause the same affix type to spawn once from each pool. This has been proven to enable +4 class skill amulets, 20FCR rings and has been theorized to allow 60%FRW boots and 30%IAS gloves. Also some other nifty stuff, like higher MF, resists, leech, stats... Each "hybridized" affix takes up two spots among the six possible on any rare.

I don't mind playing purist, without muling and even the players command. I do it when I speedrun the game, and I do it in tournaments when I on rare occations enter one. However, I'd be pretty much done with this game if it was 1.14 only.

 

[Thyiad1]

My thread was closed because it was a personal expression. It wasn't a debate. It was my opinion. It was an expression of how low the SPF has sunk. I was hoping those who had been around forever would think "yeah, it's sad". Instead, apparently we haven't sunk low enough.

Anyone who doesn't want to be part of the "let's abuse the game code" group is basically shouted down with the "it's an old game" excuse. So what?

The "solo mod comment" is a flaccid excuse. AlterEgo modded solo. So did Cattleya because Hrus poofed. I did because sirpoopsalot disappeared; it wasn't a choice.

In fact I asked about another co-mod but given that one long time SPFer (Noodle) and kris are here, it wasn't necessary. The SPF is quieter than in those days anyway, so that isn't an issue. Noodle has been looking after the SPF since before my uncle died, at my request. A formal arrangment? No. Didn't need to be and none of you even noticed. That does a diservice to him.

I can't be bothered to find the quote but one of the earlier SPF mods (maybe AE) posted something along the lines of "it's not a committee". There's a reason for that. It isn't supposed to be lead by a gobby clique. If it was, this would have been one of the other hacky/cheaty forums years ago. IIRC the general consensus with the ATMA bug fiasco was "everyone do a restart". That was a stupid idea from the community which is why I wouldn't do it. So was the plan to lump 1.11 and 1.12 together. The members aren't the one then responsible for explaining why stuff can move within those version but not back. Or telling someone that if they want to MP or trade, they're going to have to do a restart. A lot of members pitch-fork first and don't think about the consquences.

Frankly I could care less if you lot dislike me. I got the job because I wasn't part of the clique. I got it because I'd look at the facts and argue the toss against anyone. I stopped bothering about winning popularity contests before I got out of my teens. I'm 46, so I'm not going to regress now.

Do I have time to go through programming minutae? No. Well, mods are volunteers. We do have other places to be. I certainly do. I'll get to it when I can.

A couple of people who PMd me have a fuller picture of my thoughts and intentions but that's more than I intend to post here.

Having fun, Noodle?

 

[ioupain]

I think it is important to remember that some people are further along in their D2 journey than others and are therefore looking over the horizon for new challenges.

I'm still working on my Grail, but other people have already done that and they have also finished hundreds of builds, so they are looking at time travelling.

People can fall anywhere along the spectrum:
1. People who still have lots of goals to achieve in Vanilla 1.14
2. People who have goals in FAM 1.14
3. People who have completed all they wanted from 1.14/the game (and have stopped playing and have gone away)
4. People who have completed their goals in 1.14 and are now exploring other patches
5. People who have explored other patches and are exploring in even more depth

Personally, I use GoMule because I have limited time to play (and on this planet) and I have to be pragmatic. I can't throw or sell a rare item if I know I need it on a different character or for my Grail, because I may never see it again.

 

[Lemstar]

My thread was closed because it was a personal expression. It wasn't a debate. It was my opinion. It was an expression of how low the SPF has sunk. I was hoping those who had been around forever would think "yeah, it's sad". Instead, apparently we haven't sunk low enough.

I don't think anyone minds anyone posting their opinions, but if yours is the only one that's immune to discussion because you have the prerogative of locking your thread right after posting, then I don't know how you expect us to react to it.

There's nothing wrong with being busy with real stuff, but castigating users as being degenerate scum and simultaneously suggesting that you haven't had the time to review the facts to inform that opinion don't seem to jibe.

 

[T72on1]

Being an admin at the Amazon Basin myself, I respect @Thyiad and her work here greatly. However, I sincerely regret how we all try to discuss things here in a very constructive way, and she just dismisses this as if we are a bunch of ignorant, elite people not thinking about any consequences. While in fact, as this thread has shown, a lot of things, present and past, are a grey area anyway, and we are merely discussing to get a consensus on what we think is acceptable and what not, in a very thoughtful way, I'd say.

Another thing that the discussion has shown, is that there aren't that many facts on the 'issue' at hand. Like I said, a lot of things were a grey area right from the start, and got accepted as FAM nonetheless. So stating that you got the job because you look at the facts, again gives the impression that you know it while we are just ignorant. I'd think that as a moderator you'd want to be more moderate, and listen to people instead of just being bitter. Yes, we sometimes long for how things were in the past, and we might think things changed for the worse, but we can't but accept that the times change and will continue to do so. We just have to make sure that we keep an eye on the values we find important. The way this discussion has been so far, clearly shows we are exactly doing that.

I really regret that @ThomasJohnsen feels excluded like he does. Ideally we'd find a solution where everyone can agree on. However I think it's unfair to pretend that anyone not agreeing with some stances is being bullied and forced to the exit, especially when labeling the people with those stances the 'let's abuse the game code' group. Polarising has never helped anyone or any discussion afaik.

That's the whole point of this discussion: looking to see if the general consensus on certain time traveling or time traveling items is that it's abusing the game code. I'm sure that was never the intent of the people doing it in the first place, but might have ended up being considered just that in the end. Even then, it would be a consensus on the subject, where we draw the line, not a fact.

I hope this post doesn't come across the wrong way. I don't have any troubles expressing myself in English (I think). However doing so on such a touchy subject, I found it very hard, as every nuance counts, and I'm not a native english speaker.

I hope that we can continue this open, constructive debate. And that, when decisions have to be made on the subject, those can be made by and in agreement with our mods.