The SPF I know

[ioupain]

Noodle has been looking after the SPF since before my uncle died, at my request. A formal arrangment? No. Didn't need to be and none of you even noticed. That does a diservice to him.
Having fun, Noodle?

Apologies for this off topic aside, but I wanted to offer a different perspective.

In over 10 years on this forum, I have had very little interaction with a moderator because I know the rules. There are obviously lots of veteran players who also won't need much/any moderation and so are in a similar position. Perhaps this situation flew beneath the radar because so few people had any cause to be moderated? Or alternatively, perhaps people noticed but didn't make a song and dance about it, but just carried on like business as usual?

--
Back on topic:

I agree with @T72on1 that change is inevitable and that we should try to reach a consensus. But we're the SPF, we look at facts and figures, analyse things and then come to a conclusion. It might make sense to do some sort of poll or survey to understand the demographics of the population before any decision is made.

Note: Thy, I know you said "it's not a committee", so I'm not saying the majority wins here, all I'm seeking is to understand who would be impacted and how. It may have no bearing on the outcome of any decision or change, but it will inform us about the possible result of any action taken.

Let's also not forget this option: "do nothing".

 

[GooberGrape1]

@Thyiad hello and we love you! Also I agree this is not and never was a democracy. if anything we are more like a constitutional republic, united by a base set of shared values and standards. It was never about mob rule, if anything we have been slow to react and allowed good people to share in open debate, as this thread proves.

Now maybe it's because I've been around a long time, but from what my old memory serves, every major decision that ended up being FAM was deliberated upon by the very best minds of the time, just as we deliberate now. So to throw @Thyiad or any one person under the bus is unfair. If anything throw me under the bus, as I'm sure I was part of those discussions back then. All I'm saying is we did our very best, just as we continue to do today.

All of you are the best and brightest minds that have ever played the game that is single player Diablo 2. This forum is a testament to human resiliency. Instead of tearing down our leaders and our past, let's continue to build upon it and bind together to offer a constructive path forward that keeps this place and this game alive. Because let's face it, we're family.

 

[darkstarhub]

My biggest "no way, not acceptable under any circumstances" thing with this game is botting and duping. The "Voldemort" mod isnt really all that bad to me, but its those things that make it bad that outweigh the good of it. Besides, now that I have gotten used to GoMule its all I need. If I really ever want to do Ubers I will start a few characters on the realms and go for it one of these days.

The thing is there are so many levels of what people consider "game purity" and playing within the code. For some, it is strictly what is allowed officially to the single player. For me, I feel like as much of the game as possible should be available to a single player, thus the RWM and GoMule are perfectly acceptable. I am not, and and never will be an awesome D2 player, so those items in question within this topic would never help me that much anyway. Since going back to earlier patches is acceptable, the items that come along with doing that have to be acceptable as well. An old guy I used to work with always said the simplest logic will usually win out, and that is the simplest logic. I do not feel at all at a disadvantage in a MFO because I lack time traveled items. With the 20 hour time frames, it comes down to who can play the most efficient, and a little bit of luck of course.

Me personally, I believe decisions on what is considered a FAM should be just that: forum approved. A general consensus should be what goes. Anytime something like that is based on the beliefs of one person there is nothing but trouble to follow.

 

[okey]

Well this sure is interesting..

Firstly I would like to say hello Thy, secondly, I apologize if my comment hurt you or anyone individual's feeling on this subject matter, it is merely my view of the matter that "it all boils down to self-discipline".

Though I would like to understand why my reasoning is a "flaccid excuse" but as the logic of the matter is skipped over entirely, it may seem I unnessecarily poked a sore spot, for that I am sorry.

But I will make it clear on my stand point, I expect to get my money's worth upon purchase, I don't expect to pay for a half completed product. If Diablo 2 LoD had all its bells and whistles as it does online I will let you know, I wouldn't even be bothered with utilizing the supposed bad mod. As I am a simple man with priorities, much as you do in life, I do not wish to deal with having to assort with this and that, I simply want to play the game and get on with my life. I don't want to have to deal with outside program because my stash can't store anymore, nor do I wish to have to deal with multiple add-ons just to let me get my money's worth.. so why not just use one program once, rather than several programs countless number of time? Yes I tried ATMA and GoMule, but I dislike having to open, transfer, close, save every single time. I simply wish to save myself time and hassle, is it selfish and wrong of me to pursue what I think should be a no brainer?

The program can be seen as a item generator (which is bad) with its add-ons of online only content item generation, but the same thing can be said when you use utilize RWM is it not?-- Yes, I agree Torch and Anni is cheesier than cheese itself, however they were included into the current rendition of the game. So why then does it get such a bad rap? We use RWM to persue something that obviously isn't allowed, yet these other things, those are totally no-go? Where is the logic? If the logic is because it's not what Blizzard intend as it isn't the real AI or something along those line.. well let me ask this, did Blizzard intend for SP to get online only content, the ability to mule items offline and the ability to backtrack and forward items into future patches? Judging from their stance on making D3 an online only game, it's a clear no.

Furthermore, if the argument that the program is a cheat for it allows you to respec.. well this option can be totally disabled while configuring your installation.. which fall back upon my initial point: it all boils down to self-discipline. How would I know if someone is saying the truth?-- I wouldn't be the wiser if someone had died in a HC challenge tournament, but they said they haven't (because they backed up their saves or what not). It all comes to self-discipline. In anything we do, in the games we play or the life we live, anything can be done to cheat! So it falls down to us the individual to draw the lines, to define where we find the spirit and soul of the game.

The question you should be asking is: What are you doing, and for what purpose are you doing it for? And I've answered as thus above.. This, this in my eyes, is not a "flaccid excuse".

Respectfully,

PS: Condolences with your dearly departed, may he find peace in rest.

 

[BKC]

I totally agree with everything what @T72on1 said. And i personally feel no one should feel excluded from any discussion at all. @ThomasJohnsen everyone is entitled to their opinions it doesn't make the game different for me at least

@Thyiad this is not a personal attack on you do not worry! You fullfill the job that has been given to you very well if you ask me!

 

[coju]

Lol. This was all bound to eventually happen considering a game this old (hybrid rares). All the FAM (time-travel and mods) really does is increase longevity in this game. A few have stated if it weren't for FAM they would have stopped playing long ago. I've only come across a few forumites who play without any mods.
I joined this forum because of the rules it laid out. No this, no that, just these over here. I liked that because I'm one to go "Tycoon" or "Civ V world editor".
The hybrid-rares fall under the FAM. There are some things about our rules I laugh at because they are allowed, but I understand why they are (atma-bug and the reasoning Thy gave).

"Fair"? The world isn't fair. What other game allows you to go back in previous patches? How many who time-travel only do it for the experience and not to inevitably bring items forward? What other game allows that? We are technically deconstructing game code by doing that: removing code for older code. Some may argue that blizzard has the patches separate so it's intended. Maybe, but we know how hard it is to know an individuals intentions, more less a debunk company's.

I'm for it. I'm for it all! (Minus blatant editing) If you spent the time doing it, great!

Now, what's up with this .07 character thing I keep hearing about with a name something along the lines of haxhexhax0|2?

Edit: is this just another season in the SPF? One where "the days of nakedness are over, no longer do we wish to compete in the game weak, but super powerful!!!"? As the age of tournaments has come and gone, so too this phase of pre-lod-untradable-items. Or maybe not. Maybe this discussion is what the SPF needed to revitalize itself. Maybe some old 1.00 tournaments will come about? MP?
There still are new players coming about, new ideas how to test the limits of the game, new tournaments, character builds, etc... for a game so old, it's neat to see the newness of it still.

 

[zoo]

I pre-ordered Diablo II all those years ago. I found this forum when I was playing on the realms and have been lurking around for many years before I actually registered for an account. What drew me in was the depth of knowledge contained here on the boards and gathered among the registered users. It didn't matter what I wanted to know about Diablo II, I was sure to find what I wanted on purediablo.com. This still holds true 10+ years later.

The SPF inspired me to quit playing on battle.net and start playing SP. I was tired of all the bots and spam on the realms and saw little to no point in trading because of all the duplicated items floating around.

My Diablo II installation has allways been 100% Blizzard. I find it kind of odd that programs like ATMA and GoMule are so popular around here. Sure, it makes playing twinked characters a lot easier but at the same time I can't help but think that these are in fact third party programs that modifies the game. I would very much like to remake my Infinity wearing nova sorceress I played on the realms in SP but the fact that I would have to use third party programs to be able to do this makes it much less interesting. Instead I try to see the restriction of no ladder rune words as an opportunity for me to play a more challenging game. To me challenging equals fun. Since the SPF has a huge database full of weird and challenging builds, I draw the conclusion that many others have the most fun with Diablo II when trying out new ways of beating the game while staying within the bounderies that Blizzard has set up.

I don't time travel. My take on the whole time traveling thing is that as long as no third party programs are used, I wouldn't have any problem playing the game as long as I'm having fun.

Since I don't trust in others to have the same views as me I feel best with not trading pixles with others. I know where all my items came from and what state my Diablo II was in when they droped. As long as I stay away from trading, I'm immune to whatever shady business all other people in this world are involved in.

 

[ioupain]

In the vein of the concept of 'What is fun?', being arbitrarily cut off from the runewords was not fun, but someone enabled them in a way that was true to the realm content. Similarly, being cut off from the late game content is also not fun, however, I accept this because the code is server side only. If the code for the Pandemonium (Ubers) and World (Diablo Clone) events were present in the patch files and could be recreated faithfully in a mod, I would play them (but were that the case, I'm assuming Blizzard would have just implemented them in SP anyway).

Why? Well for a start, that would be fun, I never got to play these on the realms (mixture of time, connection quality, trying to avoid spam/bots/dupers). Also, it would be harder in SP unless you had people to MP with - very seldom the case for me - so it would be a good challenge. I want to experience all the game has to offer, those charms may also open up new characters to play and enjoy.

... I draw the conclusion that many others have the most fun with Diablo II when trying out new ways of beating the game while staying within the bounderies that Blizzard has set up...

I question those boundaries (see Runewords above), I reckon they are there due to one or more of the following reasons:
1. Laziness
2. Capitalism (they are a business after all)
3. Politics
4. Negligence

None of those sit well with me and so I and many others, choose to route around the problem.

 

[Agguh]

The only reason why I never got into this forum is unacceptible forum rules, which are way different from my playstyle.
Despite being single player guy pretty much since release of the game.
So I just lurk here sometimes and check what's up. It makes me sad seeing some of the items and other stuff ppl use here in mf tournaments for example.
And I know lots of other ppl, who don't consider stuff thats allowed in this forum legit.

 

[Maltatai]

The SPF I know is defined by its helpful and on the whole notoriously decent members. The mutual support and respect unites the forum much more than differences in playstyle, patches or stored items divide it.

I have always almost since joining considered myself as part of a minority in the way that I play the game without third party programs and modifications. Diablo 2 is the only game I have no wish to modify, and a huge reason is that it is difficult and scary enough as it is. This fact has never prevented me from feeling that I still played the same game as a great lot of other players with every allowed mod installed and their characters groaning under the weight of so many twinked items.

A significant reason for that is probably my disinterest in having the highest level items with the most devastating effectiveness for the sake of having them. I could not care less about whether a socketed elite weapon was a perfect superior one or not. If I ever found a Zod rune I would be more likely to sell it than keep it. I don't know if this is a purists way of playing or not, and don't really care. I did try out twinking a few characters after having completed my first guardian but I found it wasn't my thing at all. That does in no way interfere with me being genuinely interested and sometimes rather impressed with the clever ways that some are able to combine various twinked and high end items, not because the items are good but because the player has used some imagination and original thinking, or just done something really stylish for that matter. Neither do I ever recall seeing any comment in any thread I've made that hinted at being less complimentary just because the poster used all kinds of mods or third party programs which I didn't.

This thread is the SPF I know. I can think of no other forum where a discussion about what is evidently a sensitive topic is conducted with this civility.

This thread is also not the SPF I know. I am the first to admit that I haven't really followed the item based discussions very much. I missed the memo about killing speed being the only thing that defined a character as successful or not. I guess I must have been busy writing something... But during these last six or seven years, during which the community has withered and then blossomed again more than once, items and time travelling was never an issue in this manner.

Lastly, this is not the moderating I know. @Thyiad, you have as far as I have seen consistently been a moderator that aside from being helpful also has been one that encouraged discussion. Your two latest posts on this matter are, against that background, not like you. But neither are two posts anywhere near enough to make me think less of your efforts as a moderator.
And my sympathies to you and the family, of course.


A diabolically good night, to each and every forum member that makes the SPF what it is. Even to those running around with nothing but twinked rune words and town guard mercenaries.

 

[GooberGrape1]

Me and @Thyiad go way back, at separate times she has both encouraged me and threatened to ban me. She is almost notoriously fair, even allowing some things that are technically against the rules if it meant the continued survival of the community. I trust her even and especially when she says no, and recognize her right and authority to be both a member and a leader of our motley crew.

 

[NamelessPenguin]

Kinda OT here: I've never understood the Undestructable bug in ATMA. I saw Marvels "Scarecrow" fishy mancer used an Eth Bugged Beast BA. Does that mean he put a Zod in it, and then Hel'd it out, so the Undestruck remained? Kinda expansive way to get a bit of extra dmg.

 

[pharphis]

some cheap runewords give indestructible, so for a certain number of sockets and weapon types you can do that instead. Pretty sure that's what people do with zerker axes but I'm not sure about which runewords do what

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

I usually ATMA bug some phase blades every now and then.... xD

As a side note, ATMA bugging was actually legit at one time. On the realms shortly after 1.10 was released, you could make a runeword with "indestructible" then unsocket it to keep it that way. This was patched after a few months. But interestingly, ATMA bugging just lets us relive a bug which was once possible in a legit way

Then you have those few lucky people who Zodded an item pre-1.10. Maybe some 07 players will get lucky eventually.

 

[Grape1]

Great post, @Maltatai

Me and @Thyiad go way back, at separate times she has both encouraged me and threatened to ban me. She is almost notoriously fair, even allowing some things that are technically against the rules if it meant the continued survival of the community. I trust her even and especially when she says no, and recognize her right and authority to be both a member and a leader of our motley crew.

I sincerely agree with you, and Thy has done tremendous job keeping our dear SPF moderated all these years. But I was really expecting some reasonable arguments against the hybrid rares (that just couple of people have even tried). Then maybe some discussions why or why not, and case would be closed until new discussion or proposals on the matter arises.

Instead we got "an expression of how low the SPF has sunk". That was quite surprising, slightly discouraging, even. You two, and many others, have been there far longer than I, but I don't know how thick nostalgia lenses you'd need to make such statements! It's not like this forum hasn't tried to benefit from time travel before, heavyweight. (1.07).

As far as I can tell, the SPF is as strong as ever if one bothered to look around! Few examples:

- We have had that untwinked 99 lvl thread for a while, and there's now more untwinked 99ers than ever before combined!

- I hosted a very successful rune finding event this year, it was very funny, quite popular, active and friendly, and there was no cheaters or "game code abusers" as far as I can tell. Gripphon hosted a WSK tournament in the same spirit.

-There's couple general interesting untwinked tournaments on the frontpage regularly.

- People are actively posting their personal projects in separate threads, like septs and different kind of challenges.

- Time travel is back in fashion, and there's small but active group posting into 1.00 & 1.07 threads genuinely enjoying their findings and time exploring the D2 world not so well-known.

And many more. If that is how we came to sunk to the bottom, I'm very sorry. Too bad I wasn't around the better days of SPF!

 

[T72on1]

@Grape I agree 100%. Very well said !!!

 

[GooberGrape1]

@Grape nah you're right, you've done a lot to revitalize this forum. I think it's less about rose colored lenses and more about old guard loyalty. I have given and gotten a lot from this family but if I no longer represent its needs, I'm okay with that, I can move on. You guys have built a lot here and I respect that.

 

[Timinator1]

I read some of the first post, will read the rest later .. but with that in mind to me this forum was a place where there are generally two types of people.

Those who keep very pure, no or very few mods, little or no cheese. Sometimes these people add their own restrictions for what makes sense for them. I respect them, but personally thats not me.
Those who follow FAM and may or may not cheese it up. Generally the most hardcore will be here for efficiency reasons. We have learnt a lot over the decade plus this forum has been going. They will utilise this knowledge and may use everything to their advantage. Personally I fit into the later camp.

Despite the differences we all get along, opinions are shared but no one is prevented from their style. I like that. I hope it can continue. It is sad when someone leaves the community for bad reasons.

 

[Timinator1]

Lots of thoughts on a few topics here ..

When I first came to the SPF in 2003, I could not believe the amount of cheating and hypocrisy that went on.

These type of statements are where a lot of the grief comes from. Mixing or confusing forum rules vs individual ethics or preferences. There has never been a mass abusing of the forum rules which was allowed.

I was around in 2003. I don't recall what you are talking about here. There were some idiots who got the banstick, or left, but this was a small minority compared to pretty much the goldYour later statement made it sound that many users personal style (and the forum rules) did not align with your own at the time of joining. However latter you changed your view a bit.

Just for a bit of context. There are some things accepted in the forum rules which I personally would never do. This is moving from HC to SC.

I thought of one other thing. At times when I have been close to burnout, seeing certain posts accelerate my burnout. In early 2007 I'd been playing for almost 4 years without a proper break. I started seeing high runes dropping like candy. In a way what people did on their on PCs, and most of this could have been legit finds did impact my emotions. I was not impacted in trade or PVP (I don't). It didn't impact me in competitions. At that time, the frequency and luck/ease of these things got into my head and accelerated my departure from D2 as my main game.

I've come back and played, and had breaks since. It is worth being aware of the consequences of these things. Humans are interesting characters.

After reading the other content, I realised that certain threads just bore me. I skip over them, or if I found myself in them, I'll leave them. I pondered if 2 subforums might work? But if the community has really shrunk that might not be wise. It would mean people can quickly see the topics that interest them and ONLY that. Some may visit all of it to participate in an untwinked tourney, then return to post their finds from min/maxed and cheesed characters.


One last thought about the community "sinking to a new low". These new developments of the beta/hybrid rares could have potentially come up in the past. If that knowledge had, I'm sure there would have been demand for it. Hypothetically it may have been added to the allowed section of the rules?

I can see how what you do on your own PC affects only you, and how in other ways it can affect the community.

It just has happened to happen now. Potentially there will be more things we are yet to discover based on the past. In general that exites me, and gives me hope to play D2 compared to the hundreds of gaming alternatives out there these days wanting my time.

 

[TheNix]

I was around in 2003. I don't recall what you are talking about here.

I was not talking about the forum as a whole, but my reaction to the forum rules, the "forum rules vs individual ethics" point if you like. I came to the SPF from a LAN group (i.e. not bnet) that considered the use of any third-party program is a cheat and trading items with anyone other than the group (hell, playing with any other person) was against our rules. As a group we routinely used the act command, being an extension a D&D group we just saw it is using a pre-rolled character, but the players command was again a no-no. When I came here I found the acceptance of the players command and the rejection of the act command hypocritical.

EDIT: I now understand the point of this statement. Sorry, that I misunderstood where you were going with it. You are I seem to have different memories of the events in questions.

Your later statement made it sound that many users personal style (and the forum rules) did not align with your own at the time of joining. However latter you changed your view a bit.

Yes, that is exactly saying what I am saying. The things that I considered to be a cheat back in 2003 (ideas I inherited from my previous group) I later embraced; people change! ATMA/GoMule, the RWM and time travel have been the driving force in keeping me playing Diablo and keeping me a member of the SPF. There are still some things that occur that are within the rules I feel uncomfortable with, but I am still here. I am also confident that the collective wisdom of the community can overcome these occasional schisms as it has it has done so in the past.