What's interesting here is the shift in mentality on single player games as a shared authorship as opposed to a one sided narrative. The runaway success of Skyrim and other heavily modded games has led the community at large to adopt a malleable approach to single player games. What once was thought of as a cheat is now a game enhancement to increase "immersion". I'm not against this idea in a general sense. What the SPF has essentially done is curate a list of acceptable "mods" ala Skyrim's STEP project that we as a community consider to be worthwhile additions to the game. Adding mods on top of this carefully curated list makes you "non-STEP" and makes it harder to share your experiences with the community, since we basically at that point aren't playing the same game anymore. I think that's the crux of the argument: in order to have a community, we need to have a shared experience, and I think that the FAM is a good framework to build upon.
The SPF I know
- Thread starter helvete1
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ioupain
Well-known member
I had a really long reply to all of this, but then when reading through it, it was very insensitive and almost sounded angry. So I will keep it a bit shorter here.
I have left and come back to D2 more times than I can remember. I have however been lurking these forums non-stop. FAM are nice and I will admit that I have used gomule/atma. At one time I really enjoyed them and trying to build a full grail was a huge goal. Then I would get tired of running areas and delete everything and start from scratch.
The more I play and come back to this amazing game, the more I enjoy the forums and less I enjoy the mods. I don't see an issue with them as long as they are "forum accepted" not just told; "yeah use your 3rd party program to create a bug that was fixed very quickly on the realms". Why not just use an editor and do it, no difference there.
I love all you guys even though I don't know any of you personally. Good luck with this and godspeed.
I have left and come back to D2 more times than I can remember. I have however been lurking these forums non-stop. FAM are nice and I will admit that I have used gomule/atma. At one time I really enjoyed them and trying to build a full grail was a huge goal. Then I would get tired of running areas and delete everything and start from scratch.
The more I play and come back to this amazing game, the more I enjoy the forums and less I enjoy the mods. I don't see an issue with them as long as they are "forum accepted" not just told; "yeah use your 3rd party program to create a bug that was fixed very quickly on the realms". Why not just use an editor and do it, no difference there.
I love all you guys even though I don't know any of you personally. Good luck with this and godspeed.
An opinion on hybrid rares from a non-trader, non-time traveler:
I don't think they should be allowed for trade/pvp characters. That of course opens the box of discussion that items found by a character using hybrid rares should be off limits to the trade/mp crowd.
I disagree with the notion that hybrid rares = hacked items. Sure, one could use a 3rd-party program to create a similar item; but it takes a fair amount of time and effort to find these rare items in older versions, then bring them forward. It does not take much time or effort to hack an item. Also, the few examples I've seen aren't really great items. The altered mods are cool and I'm all about using weird things for style points. I'm sure there are examples I have not seen which create godly items. Regardless, it took a lot of time and luck to get an item like that.
/effort to focus thread on hybrid rares discussion
It has been an interesting conversation. The SPF I know is welcoming, intimidating, friendly, defensive, jocular and utterly serious. It's been a pleasure to be a long-time lurker/sometimes poster on these forums. I have learned a lot, enjoyed the stories, and been inspired by the drops, tournaments and character builds. Whatever the SPF is, I hope it is still around in another 15 years.
I don't think they should be allowed for trade/pvp characters. That of course opens the box of discussion that items found by a character using hybrid rares should be off limits to the trade/mp crowd.
I disagree with the notion that hybrid rares = hacked items. Sure, one could use a 3rd-party program to create a similar item; but it takes a fair amount of time and effort to find these rare items in older versions, then bring them forward. It does not take much time or effort to hack an item. Also, the few examples I've seen aren't really great items. The altered mods are cool and I'm all about using weird things for style points. I'm sure there are examples I have not seen which create godly items. Regardless, it took a lot of time and luck to get an item like that.
/effort to focus thread on hybrid rares discussion
It has been an interesting conversation. The SPF I know is welcoming, intimidating, friendly, defensive, jocular and utterly serious. It's been a pleasure to be a long-time lurker/sometimes poster on these forums. I have learned a lot, enjoyed the stories, and been inspired by the drops, tournaments and character builds. Whatever the SPF is, I hope it is still around in another 15 years.
JoeBruce, that's how I'm leaning. I wanted to leave this thread mostly alone for some time, so emotions could cool a bit and we could see a consensus start to form. I think we're seeing that now.
As I see it, we have no way of preventing players from getting these hybrid rares. We also have a strong tradition here of, "What you do on your own computer is up to you - just don't make it someone else's problem."
We've dealt with quarantines before - separating vanilla from RWM, different patches, vanilla vs RWM, etc. If there's a part of this community that wants to farm historic patches and bring ridiculous items forward, it makes sense to me that these people accept that all affected characters and items are quarantined, and not allowed to interact with more traditional characters.
Thoughts?
As I see it, we have no way of preventing players from getting these hybrid rares. We also have a strong tradition here of, "What you do on your own computer is up to you - just don't make it someone else's problem."
We've dealt with quarantines before - separating vanilla from RWM, different patches, vanilla vs RWM, etc. If there's a part of this community that wants to farm historic patches and bring ridiculous items forward, it makes sense to me that these people accept that all affected characters and items are quarantined, and not allowed to interact with more traditional characters.
Thoughts?
Lemstar
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I'm reading this thread and I can't figure out where this consensus materialized from.
I guess it'll sweep the problem under the table (and it's not like it was going to be much of a problem to begin with, anyway), but I'd at least like to hear the reasoning behind it relative to similar issues.
OK, we took different things from the conversation. That's why I asked for people's thoughts. I'm sorry if my post came across as me saying, "THIS IS HOW IT IS NOW." It was intended to be more along the lines of, "this is what I'm hearing, this is what makes sense to me, let's come to a consensus." That's what I'd like to do.
My thoughts are:
1) Ban them from trading -> I'm inclined to say yes because classic items are already banned from trading (or at least those with duplicate fingerprints, I'm not sure)
2) Ban them from use on characters that are part of the trade pool -> I don't think that's necessary and is no different than other time-traveled items and players have already been using classic items on character sin later versions that are part of the FAM trade pool
1) Ban them from trading -> I'm inclined to say yes because classic items are already banned from trading (or at least those with duplicate fingerprints, I'm not sure)
2) Ban them from use on characters that are part of the trade pool -> I don't think that's necessary and is no different than other time-traveled items and players have already been using classic items on character sin later versions that are part of the FAM trade pool
Lemstar
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The existing Classic ban has a plausible reason for existing, at least in my understanding (possibility of fingerprint duplication). If these are subject to the same problem, that sounds within reason. Based on research into it, though, it doesn't sound to be the case?
Beyond that, though, there are plenty of items that clearly were not intended to exist in their final state (1.07 eth weapons, MPK rings, and even eth bugged armor) that are fully permitted to be used and traded. I'm not seeing how hybrid rares are substantively different in order to merit separate treatment.
Beyond that, though, there are plenty of items that clearly were not intended to exist in their final state (1.07 eth weapons, MPK rings, and even eth bugged armor) that are fully permitted to be used and traded. I'm not seeing how hybrid rares are substantively different in order to merit separate treatment.
The problem with the "1.07 eth weapons, MPK rings, and even eth bugged armor" is that that ship has well and truly sailed, but, if you will excuse the mixed metaphor, the question we should be asking is it too late to nip the hybrid rare thing in the bud. I'm still not sure how they are created (Classic items being brought forward to LoD?) but are they too tightly bound in the player/item pool for them to be separated?
I don't think they're tightly bound at all, or rather if they exist much at all in the pool virtually no one has noticed meaning they had pretty normal stats.
They could in theory be duplicated "legitimately" but it would take absurd luck via a certain cow king or chest drop or something that drops that item consistently (this happens for rares in general so it's plausible)
They could in theory be duplicated "legitimately" but it would take absurd luck via a certain cow king or chest drop or something that drops that item consistently (this happens for rares in general so it's plausible)
If so, perhaps the first thing we should do is have a moratorium on any further movement of items, and an isolation of items that are already in the pool, until we have come to a decision one way or the other; it would be the prudent thing to do.
Lemstar
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No one trades and none of the people tinkering around with hybrid rares trade, anyway, so this talk about quarantining the items just sounds like posturing.
If there's nothing -more- problematic about hybrid rares compared to permissible bugged items, does that imply that those should have been banned too?
If there's nothing -more- problematic about hybrid rares compared to permissible bugged items, does that imply that those should have been banned too?
There is no "posturing" on my behalf because frankly I don't give a shit either way, but to me it just seems logical not make the problem any worse until a definitive decision has been made. The longer this takes the more intransigent both sides will become, the worse the outcome for all concerned.
First off thank you all for continuing to be civil, this has been a respectable and honest debate. If you will allow me, I propose two questions that may further our ability to discern FAM from non-FAM and help form a consensus.
1. Can it be obtained through Vanilla gameplay?
2. Does it provide an improvement consistent with Vanilla gameplay?
If the answer to #1 is YES, then it is Vanilla. Please note that in the above example, "Vanilla" refers to any playable version of the game either via the physical CD's, on the realms, or downloadable via an official Blizzard source. If it requires editing core game files or utilizing third party mods, please proceed to question #2.
If the answer to #2 is YES, then it should be considered for inclusion into FAM. Please note that in the above example, FAM refers to "Forum Approved Mods" which is an evolving list of carefully curated mods specifically for use in the Single Player Forum. Adherence to the FAM allows participation in multiplayer and trading with other SPF members.
Please note that I am not trying to move the goal posts. I am simply trying to put into place a simple two-step logic that could help us move forward toward a consensus. Your comments and questions are welcome, thank you for listening.
1. Can it be obtained through Vanilla gameplay?
2. Does it provide an improvement consistent with Vanilla gameplay?
If the answer to #1 is YES, then it is Vanilla. Please note that in the above example, "Vanilla" refers to any playable version of the game either via the physical CD's, on the realms, or downloadable via an official Blizzard source. If it requires editing core game files or utilizing third party mods, please proceed to question #2.
If the answer to #2 is YES, then it should be considered for inclusion into FAM. Please note that in the above example, FAM refers to "Forum Approved Mods" which is an evolving list of carefully curated mods specifically for use in the Single Player Forum. Adherence to the FAM allows participation in multiplayer and trading with other SPF members.
Please note that I am not trying to move the goal posts. I am simply trying to put into place a simple two-step logic that could help us move forward toward a consensus. Your comments and questions are welcome, thank you for listening.
Well, regarding the Hybrid Rares, the answer to 1 is yes. As long as you're permitted to move a d2s file from one folder to another (windows), which is necessary for any forwarding, then the hybrid rares can be obtained that way. Actually, that is the ONLY way, since no muling programs work pre-LOD. Even the muling must be self-MP pre-LOD (which can also be done without changing any game files, via fast user switching).
Those items, while very obviosly not intended, are just as much vanilla as the overpowered 1.07-1.08 uniques and the buggy MPK rings.
Those items, while very obviosly not intended, are just as much vanilla as the overpowered 1.07-1.08 uniques and the buggy MPK rings.
I do also agree with helvete.
Anyway. Should this become FAM, and should I try these, I'd probably hesitate to use any 70MF gloves etc. or so out of solidarity, at least in any MF competitions. That would be until these became more mainstream like MPK rings. I still very much would like to try these for some weird builds, there's crazy potential especially for classic play. Only that it would take a big big effort to get anything really good out of this, probably.
Anyway. Should this become FAM, and should I try these, I'd probably hesitate to use any 70MF gloves etc. or so out of solidarity, at least in any MF competitions. That would be until these became more mainstream like MPK rings. I still very much would like to try these for some weird builds, there's crazy potential especially for classic play. Only that it would take a big big effort to get anything really good out of this, probably.
If I were to play the devil's advocate, I think the difference is that these hybrid rares were never available on battle-net, while the 1.07 and 1.08 uniques and such could be found (rarely) on battle-net due to forwarding.
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