You don't really need to check for dupes, everything in the SPF is already based on the honor system. You also don't need ATMA or GoMule to send an item. Just put the item in a level 1 char and send the character (d2s) to the person. They can take it out in self MP.
The SPF I know
- Thread starter helvete1
- Start date
In a single player community where the game is only running locally, I would only trade with people I've built a relationship with. There is no way of doing this type of fingerprint stuff without an external application, so for people that are complaining about using mods or third party programs, there is nothing that can be done from the vanilla side. I don't see the logic nor reason for banning level 1 empty character files. GoMule and ATMA stashes are basically just character files without any of the character specific stuff data structures. Imagine if you took out the stash space of a character and stored it outside.
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I did some light reading / research on "time travelling" in D2. Having only traveled forward through time (both RL and in D2 
), and never playing PvP, my opinion is only from that perspective.
In the timeline we all have gone through, it is possible that someone did a bunch of playing in 1.00. Then picked it back up in 1.07, stopped for many years, then started back up in 1.13. So, the "benefits" that some players are getting are, I believe, possible to have happened in RL. If my understanding is incorrect - please educate me. I'm a big fan of getting smarter.
Now, the next part is the benefits gained by a player who chooses to time travel. In general, if there wasn't a benefit to do it, no one would go through the work to do it, right? There are items that, when brought forward to later patches have nice benefits over other items in the game. The incremental gain over another item I do not see as game breaking. Perhaps it saves a player from having to drink more mana potions on a specific build, or gets them slightly more gold find, or does a bit more damage. That is what it looks like to me is the benefit gained by this exercise. If there are other game breaking benefits or substantial benefits vs others whom have not time traveled, please expand the knowledge.
So... what is the cost of obtaining this benefit? From what I read it is A LOT of playing time in these previous patches. Between setting up the computer to handle it (installing a version switcher), creating a character and building it up to high levels, then grinding the heck out of racks or taking out ump-teen billion blood maggot young, we're looking at many many hours of playing (anyone that's gone through this work - feel free to give an estimate on the time spent). Then to do the research to find if you bring it up to a certain patch, and then skip several other patches, and then bring it up to 1.13 is even more time invested.
In my opinion, because the path is technically achievable by someone without fancy time traveling capabilities, I see items gained by time traveling as legit. Because someone chose to invest heavily in their time to mine previous patches for incremental gains in the most recent patch, my hats off to you. Not only for the effort, but for the uncovering of knowledge. We as a community now know more than we did before because of your efforts. One can now even further enjoy this game because of you, and further tweak their players if they want to (at a cost of time and effort, that is).
That's my thoughts on it. This place has a bunch of smart, dedicated players - I think that we can get to a point where everyone is on the same page.
), and never playing PvP, my opinion is only from that perspective.In the timeline we all have gone through, it is possible that someone did a bunch of playing in 1.00. Then picked it back up in 1.07, stopped for many years, then started back up in 1.13. So, the "benefits" that some players are getting are, I believe, possible to have happened in RL. If my understanding is incorrect - please educate me. I'm a big fan of getting smarter.
Now, the next part is the benefits gained by a player who chooses to time travel. In general, if there wasn't a benefit to do it, no one would go through the work to do it, right? There are items that, when brought forward to later patches have nice benefits over other items in the game. The incremental gain over another item I do not see as game breaking. Perhaps it saves a player from having to drink more mana potions on a specific build, or gets them slightly more gold find, or does a bit more damage. That is what it looks like to me is the benefit gained by this exercise. If there are other game breaking benefits or substantial benefits vs others whom have not time traveled, please expand the knowledge.
So... what is the cost of obtaining this benefit? From what I read it is A LOT of playing time in these previous patches. Between setting up the computer to handle it (installing a version switcher), creating a character and building it up to high levels, then grinding the heck out of racks or taking out ump-teen billion blood maggot young, we're looking at many many hours of playing (anyone that's gone through this work - feel free to give an estimate on the time spent). Then to do the research to find if you bring it up to a certain patch, and then skip several other patches, and then bring it up to 1.13 is even more time invested.
In my opinion, because the path is technically achievable by someone without fancy time traveling capabilities, I see items gained by time traveling as legit. Because someone chose to invest heavily in their time to mine previous patches for incremental gains in the most recent patch, my hats off to you. Not only for the effort, but for the uncovering of knowledge. We as a community now know more than we did before because of your efforts. One can now even further enjoy this game because of you, and further tweak their players if they want to (at a cost of time and effort, that is).
That's my thoughts on it. This place has a bunch of smart, dedicated players - I think that we can get to a point where everyone is on the same page.
- Sep 12, 2013
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At least for me, it's equally interesting to time travel for the experiences as well as the items. Frozen Orb with no cast delay? Static sliver Baal down to nothing? Lord de Seis theif ability? How about 1.09 Shredder-Sin, or a Marrowalk bugged Bone-Mancer? Yes please!
(well, maybe not the Seis-theif..)So I've kind of skimmed all 12 pages and although I don't have many posts here on the forum, I've been around since I can remember playing Diablo 2 which was the release...
I've got a few things that I feel I'd like to say, my opinion probably doesn't matter but why not see if it can't open discussion a little more.
First off, the topic of Hybrid Rares/Time shifting;
I personally think that if someone doesn't modify the version of the game and everything is done by finding/crafting/doing all by ones hand then what's the problem? It's a huge time sync and we only have one life. If someone wants to invest the time in to a poorly coded game and reap the benefits they should get the rewards. I do not think that time shifted items should be allowed in tournaments or to be traded UNLESS everyone or the person you are trading with can prove they have went through the processes to do the same thing as you, same same. You shouldn't be able to just trade for better versions of items and never put in the hours to try and get them from a different version.
Secondly, the topic of ATMA/GoMule and the untalkable;
I think some people need to move outside of their box a little bit, we are talking about a game that is over the hill and blizzard doesn't care... untalkable has a ton of extra bells and whistles sure but if you want to be able to just have rune words enabled and use the extra stash space then why not? It's all in game, you don't have to save and exit a ton of times and what is honestly the difference between stopping your game and creating 20 mules in gomule or just changing pages? If you really want the confines of 6x8 then just use 20 pages and only use 6x8, you want to do solo self found but use atma? why not just do solo self found but use unshared stash. Or better yet, turn off big stash and just use pages.
Edit : Here's food for thought, I have 4 completely legit (probably have had more over time) CD-Keys for both D2/LoD, I had them so I could mule/trade/level everything online legitimately by myself. So if I have all this access to accounts/keys then why do I have to use an outside program to do all the inside trading I used to do online?
Edit #2 : You can also just use wecan'ttalkaboutit literally to be your mule station, hit the box, load it up, nice interface and way of organizing, quit and start playing normally again. So many options, doing the same thing as Atma / GoMule
As far as the other things that it "allows" you to do, turn them off, you shouldn't be using stat/skill resets or free levels.
I do think that you should be able to summon Dclone, if you take the time to farm the elusive soj and you don't change the activator then you deserve to choose to get rid of the soj or not.
I also think that even if it's a shadow of itself you should be able to get a torch aswell, if youare willing to take the time to build up an uber killer and farm the materials, why not? Everything else should be off, but then I feel we are playing diablo 2 the way it should have been played.
I don't think we shouldn't be allowed to have things because blizzard chooses to shun us.
Edit : I'm not doing anything of the above said, however if there as a voice of change, I'd swap in a nano second.
I've got a few things that I feel I'd like to say, my opinion probably doesn't matter but why not see if it can't open discussion a little more.
First off, the topic of Hybrid Rares/Time shifting;
I personally think that if someone doesn't modify the version of the game and everything is done by finding/crafting/doing all by ones hand then what's the problem? It's a huge time sync and we only have one life. If someone wants to invest the time in to a poorly coded game and reap the benefits they should get the rewards. I do not think that time shifted items should be allowed in tournaments or to be traded UNLESS everyone or the person you are trading with can prove they have went through the processes to do the same thing as you, same same. You shouldn't be able to just trade for better versions of items and never put in the hours to try and get them from a different version.
Secondly, the topic of ATMA/GoMule and the untalkable;
I think some people need to move outside of their box a little bit, we are talking about a game that is over the hill and blizzard doesn't care... untalkable has a ton of extra bells and whistles sure but if you want to be able to just have rune words enabled and use the extra stash space then why not? It's all in game, you don't have to save and exit a ton of times and what is honestly the difference between stopping your game and creating 20 mules in gomule or just changing pages? If you really want the confines of 6x8 then just use 20 pages and only use 6x8, you want to do solo self found but use atma? why not just do solo self found but use unshared stash. Or better yet, turn off big stash and just use pages.
Edit : Here's food for thought, I have 4 completely legit (probably have had more over time) CD-Keys for both D2/LoD, I had them so I could mule/trade/level everything online legitimately by myself. So if I have all this access to accounts/keys then why do I have to use an outside program to do all the inside trading I used to do online?
Edit #2 : You can also just use wecan'ttalkaboutit literally to be your mule station, hit the box, load it up, nice interface and way of organizing, quit and start playing normally again. So many options, doing the same thing as Atma / GoMule
As far as the other things that it "allows" you to do, turn them off, you shouldn't be using stat/skill resets or free levels.
I do think that you should be able to summon Dclone, if you take the time to farm the elusive soj and you don't change the activator then you deserve to choose to get rid of the soj or not.
I also think that even if it's a shadow of itself you should be able to get a torch aswell, if youare willing to take the time to build up an uber killer and farm the materials, why not? Everything else should be off, but then I feel we are playing diablo 2 the way it should have been played.
I don't think we shouldn't be allowed to have things because blizzard chooses to shun us.
Edit : I'm not doing anything of the above said, however if there as a voice of change, I'd swap in a nano second.
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The fact that we have these choices makes this game miles better than D3. I will just continue to be happy about that .
.I can see where the purists are coming from. Take the version of the game you play in. Say 1.13. Now the test is to take a look at the item you are considering. Simple test. Can this item exist in this version of the game without being edited in via third party software? For these time travel crafts, the answer is simply no.
You will never once in a million years kill a monster in 1.13 that will drop a 20 fcr ring. You will never kill a monster in 1.13 that will drop a 20 mpk ring. Guess what? In 1.13, you will also never receive an annihulus charm from a monster. So in my opinion, anyone that tries to say these time travel items are more legit than the Voldemort mod charms/torches is off their rocker in my opinion.
But hey, SPF forum, your computer your rules, do what makes you happy. However, once you introduce these items to the forum's competitions, it makes the competitions moot in my point of view. If the competition is to MF a target for a 20 hour period of time, and I have to travel back to the town vendor after every round to get mana pots and you don't because of a BS MPK ring that you time traveled for that I will never once in a million years see playing, then how is that remotely fair?
The same SPF forum rules in regards to "your computer your way" are being applied to the competitions. This does two things.
1) Legit players wont be able to compete with players that use items that they themselves cannot obtain. This will probably cause some Ire and may even result in some players not participating in the future. Bad for business if you want to keep the forums hoppin', but what are you going to do?
2) The big one from my perspective, new players. New players aren't gonna want to participate in the competitions if A) they have no way to get the items that make them competitive, and B) have no idea how to get things to work even if they wanted to participate and do the extra grind.
So if your new players aren't rolling in to replace the ones that are leaving, because they pop into these threads and roll their eyes when they hear about some eth bug atma bug time travel ring gloves etc, then the forums start to die off.
So just limit the competitions? Well sure, but where do you draw the line? ATMA bugged items? Time travel and ATMA bugged items? There's a really knowledgeable and skilled player named Fabian or something like that who commented that using a Time traveled item in a competition wasn't worth noting because it would have only given him a .01% increase in efficiency over his game knowledge and legit gear. Well so freakin' what? Have you EVER heard of a competition where someone was allowed to cheat because it only mattered a tiny little bit? Absolutely nonsensical.
As far as the "well if you woke up 15 years later your items would be bugged anyway" comment, sure. For one set of items. Take all the time travelers and tell them they're only allowed to time travel one stash/inventory worth of gear and then that's it, if you want to simulate reality. But even IF you did that, there's a saying we use for this in the Corps, if your Aunt had a **** she'd be your Uncle. Kind of like a so what? Even IF there was a player on these forums that went afk for 15 years, and EVEN IF they happened to have some items, and then EVEN IF they magically rolled forward and were good items, that's still what? One player maybe on the entire SPF who meets that criteria?
As was stated before, certain items were OP in certain patches, while at the same time certain items weren't. Gathering all the OP items from each individual patch and then stuffing them on to one character is IMO no more legit than having a single player Annihulus charm and Torch.
What's really funny is that the big upsets in the past in the Dii forums from what I can tell have all been related to trying to push the game to be more like Bnet. RWM, muling programs, etc, all slowly becoming the norm. Well now the SPF has gone past trying to simulate the Bnet experience and is dabbling in items that wouldn't even survive a cursory inspection ON Bnet.
And for the argument that it takes a long time to farm said items, once again, so what? If someone was altering game files to create an item in game, but either the code wasn't decipherable, or the person had to do a lot of guess work, and it took forever, would it make the item legit because it took the person a long time?
"You know officer, it took me a really long time to rob this bank"... :eyeroll:
anyway, TLDR is this-
Having mystical time travel items in MFO tourneys or what have you should be considered the same as having an annihulus charm and a torch IMO.
oh by the way, nice to meet you all. =P
You will never once in a million years kill a monster in 1.13 that will drop a 20 fcr ring. You will never kill a monster in 1.13 that will drop a 20 mpk ring. Guess what? In 1.13, you will also never receive an annihulus charm from a monster. So in my opinion, anyone that tries to say these time travel items are more legit than the Voldemort mod charms/torches is off their rocker in my opinion.
But hey, SPF forum, your computer your rules, do what makes you happy. However, once you introduce these items to the forum's competitions, it makes the competitions moot in my point of view. If the competition is to MF a target for a 20 hour period of time, and I have to travel back to the town vendor after every round to get mana pots and you don't because of a BS MPK ring that you time traveled for that I will never once in a million years see playing, then how is that remotely fair?
The same SPF forum rules in regards to "your computer your way" are being applied to the competitions. This does two things.
1) Legit players wont be able to compete with players that use items that they themselves cannot obtain. This will probably cause some Ire and may even result in some players not participating in the future. Bad for business if you want to keep the forums hoppin', but what are you going to do?
2) The big one from my perspective, new players. New players aren't gonna want to participate in the competitions if A) they have no way to get the items that make them competitive, and B) have no idea how to get things to work even if they wanted to participate and do the extra grind.
So if your new players aren't rolling in to replace the ones that are leaving, because they pop into these threads and roll their eyes when they hear about some eth bug atma bug time travel ring gloves etc, then the forums start to die off.
So just limit the competitions? Well sure, but where do you draw the line? ATMA bugged items? Time travel and ATMA bugged items? There's a really knowledgeable and skilled player named Fabian or something like that who commented that using a Time traveled item in a competition wasn't worth noting because it would have only given him a .01% increase in efficiency over his game knowledge and legit gear. Well so freakin' what? Have you EVER heard of a competition where someone was allowed to cheat because it only mattered a tiny little bit? Absolutely nonsensical.
As far as the "well if you woke up 15 years later your items would be bugged anyway" comment, sure. For one set of items. Take all the time travelers and tell them they're only allowed to time travel one stash/inventory worth of gear and then that's it, if you want to simulate reality. But even IF you did that, there's a saying we use for this in the Corps, if your Aunt had a **** she'd be your Uncle. Kind of like a so what? Even IF there was a player on these forums that went afk for 15 years, and EVEN IF they happened to have some items, and then EVEN IF they magically rolled forward and were good items, that's still what? One player maybe on the entire SPF who meets that criteria?
As was stated before, certain items were OP in certain patches, while at the same time certain items weren't. Gathering all the OP items from each individual patch and then stuffing them on to one character is IMO no more legit than having a single player Annihulus charm and Torch.
What's really funny is that the big upsets in the past in the Dii forums from what I can tell have all been related to trying to push the game to be more like Bnet. RWM, muling programs, etc, all slowly becoming the norm. Well now the SPF has gone past trying to simulate the Bnet experience and is dabbling in items that wouldn't even survive a cursory inspection ON Bnet.
And for the argument that it takes a long time to farm said items, once again, so what? If someone was altering game files to create an item in game, but either the code wasn't decipherable, or the person had to do a lot of guess work, and it took forever, would it make the item legit because it took the person a long time?
"You know officer, it took me a really long time to rob this bank"... :eyeroll:
anyway, TLDR is this-
Having mystical time travel items in MFO tourneys or what have you should be considered the same as having an annihulus charm and a torch IMO.
oh by the way, nice to meet you all. =P
Small,
So you just decided to define what I (and most people on this forum) do as non-legit and cheating, and then ask if people like me should be allowed to cheat? Yeah I don't see this conversation being too productive. If you want to say you disagree with the standards and rules of this forum, feel free to say that. Calling us all (and me personally) cheaters probably won't get you very far.
So you just decided to define what I (and most people on this forum) do as non-legit and cheating, and then ask if people like me should be allowed to cheat? Yeah I don't see this conversation being too productive. If you want to say you disagree with the standards and rules of this forum, feel free to say that. Calling us all (and me personally) cheaters probably won't get you very far.
@Fabian,
You said that you used time travel items in an MFO tourney.
Time travel items cannot be obtained without means that people are, in this thread, considering for being considered "illegitimate".
I said that IMO (In my opinion), time travel items are bogus. Illegitimate. Cheating. Hacking. Whatever word you want to use.
I also stated that my reasoning for considering them bogus is because they cannot be obtained via normal methods.
If you want to take that as a personal attack on you, go for it. If you want to take it as a personal attack on you + all your friends that you might lump in with you to rally some sentiment, go for it. I can clearly see where your post is heading and I'll probably be heading out of Salem before the trial.
The point of this thread was partly to discuss the legitimacy of said time travel items, was it not? well IMO, they are bogus, and anyone that uses them in a competition is cheating. Even if it's just a tiny eeny weeny incy little bit. It's still cheating.
EDIT
And saying I disagree with the standards and rules of this forum is a complete strawman. I said that IMO time travel items shouldn't be considered legitimate. The top mod of this Forum has apparently expressed the same feelings. Thomas has said so, and I'm sure others agree with him as well.
You said that you used time travel items in an MFO tourney.
Time travel items cannot be obtained without means that people are, in this thread, considering for being considered "illegitimate".
I said that IMO (In my opinion), time travel items are bogus. Illegitimate. Cheating. Hacking. Whatever word you want to use.
I also stated that my reasoning for considering them bogus is because they cannot be obtained via normal methods.
If you want to take that as a personal attack on you, go for it. If you want to take it as a personal attack on you + all your friends that you might lump in with you to rally some sentiment, go for it. I can clearly see where your post is heading and I'll probably be heading out of Salem before the trial.
The point of this thread was partly to discuss the legitimacy of said time travel items, was it not? well IMO, they are bogus, and anyone that uses them in a competition is cheating. Even if it's just a tiny eeny weeny incy little bit. It's still cheating.
EDIT
And saying I disagree with the standards and rules of this forum is a complete strawman. I said that IMO time travel items shouldn't be considered legitimate. The top mod of this Forum has apparently expressed the same feelings. Thomas has said so, and I'm sure others agree with him as well.
Small,
Time travel items are not cheating on this forum. It's fine that you consider them cheating. But here, they are explicitly accepted and have been since I came here 10 years ago (and a lot longer, of course).
If you want to argue that rule should change, feel free to do so.
Time travel items are not cheating on this forum. It's fine that you consider them cheating. But here, they are explicitly accepted and have been since I came here 10 years ago (and a lot longer, of course).
If you want to argue that rule should change, feel free to do so.
Lemstar
Active member
- Apr 22, 2004
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Quite frankly, I don't think anyone is going to care all that much when you apparently made this account just to pass judgment on the practices of a community you're unaffiliated with.
Cherry-picking the thread for the couple of people whose opinions yours line up with and ignoring everyone else doesn't really do your argument any credit.
Cherry-picking the thread for the couple of people whose opinions yours line up with and ignoring everyone else doesn't really do your argument any credit.
ioupain
Well-known member
Taking this to the logical conclusion, it would lead to a situation where every new patch required a full restart. There are people who have played this game for over 15 years who have items from previous patches. How do you determine who has time travelled and who has simply played for an age and continues to do so?
That same reasoning applies to in-patch finds as well. Someone who has played for 500 hours vs someone who has played for 10,000 hours are going to have access to different gear. Some people will never find Tyrael's, but that's no reason to stop people who have found Tyrael's from participating (or vice versa).
There are so many factors that can affect gameplay, here are some of them:
1. Skill
2. Luck
3. Computer speed
4. Experience
5. Amount of time available to play
6. Access to Gear
New players are going to have to tackle all of the above to compete and they make waaaay more difference than any old patch items.
I'd say the opposite has happened, GoMule and Time Travelling have breathed new life into this old game and many people only return because of these. Without some sort of muling program for Single Player, this forum would have died - no doubt in my mind. If that were to be outlawed, there would be a mass exodus from this forum.
Again, why should people who have dedicated time and effort over the years be marginalised because someone who has only played for 10 minutes has their feelings hurt? Are you going to tell Usain Bolt to run slower so that other people have a chance? People have jobs/kids/responsibilities and cannot game as much as teenagers, so they can't get to the top of the ladder. News flash, the world isn't fair.
This was completely unnecessary...
If you've read the thread, you'll notice I've already made this point, but it seems like I need to make it again. Conflating 'editing an item in' and 'finding an item in a previous patch' are NOT the same.
Here come the torches, and not the plus skills kinds. I'll see myself out.
EDIT
@ioupainmax,
In regards to your question of who has the items legit and who doesn't, it comes down to honor. The same as a lot of things do on these forums I suppose.
In regards to "it's not fair", I understand that some people will never find a certain item. But that is wholly different from "you will never be able to find this item". I might not find tyreal's might tonight in AT, but I COULD. I will never find a 20 FCR ring in AT. ever.
EDIT
@ioupainmax,
In regards to your question of who has the items legit and who doesn't, it comes down to honor. The same as a lot of things do on these forums I suppose.
In regards to "it's not fair", I understand that some people will never find a certain item. But that is wholly different from "you will never be able to find this item". I might not find tyreal's might tonight in AT, but I COULD. I will never find a 20 FCR ring in AT. ever.
- Sep 12, 2013
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I disagree with this. If we wanted to be like Bnet, we'd just allow Ubers. The fact that we don't have the code in SP to recreate is where the line has been drawn. If you want to play Ubers, that's fine. It's just no longer SP, or at least SP as approved on this forum. SP approved play is just playing with what Blizzard has given us with the various SP patches.
Sticking with SP instead of Bnet restricts you from certain things, but allows you to go beyond as you say with others. You're free to create a 1.00 Sorc, just to see what Frozen orb with no cast delay is like. Then, if you want to move her to 1.07 to make some silly RW that crash ATMA, and do 1000's of rack runs for some goofy stat uniques, you can do that as well. If someone want to try a Bone Necro in 1.09 to relive the infamous Marrowwalk bug, go nuts. Then if you want to bring him forward to 1.10 to create some nasty RW (which requires rune rarer than 1.13 Zod..), more power to you.
ioupain
Well-known member
You wrote some frankly insulting posts and now you're running away. At least have the conviction to argue your case and challenge the points constructively.
Clearly, time travel items are not cheating. Lots of things accepted in this community are not the vanilla game and could be considered cheating elsewhere, but they are not cheats here in this community. I think that people are perfectly entitled to question what we consider legitimate, and should not be shot down by people for doing so, although to call those people cheaters within the context of this forum is incorrect and not fair. Very few of us play this game in its raw state, we (almost) all edit it within the boundaries of modifications or utilities the forum considers appropriate, and those who of us who do so outside of the rules have cheated. I believe that all of the utilities that we use in the forum are to the benefit of the game and the community, but we are still deliberately changing the parameters of the game, they are just legitimate because we have rules stating that they are, and that is absolutely fine.
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Maybe one day you will get that 20 FCR ring. The game is funny sometimes. I've even heard of people getting Annihilus by walking chickens out to Blood Raven. You have to keep doing it though. Never works the first time.
Hey man I'll sit here until the sun comes up, I just figured that I was heading down the quick path of being banned.
Take it as insulting if you want. If you enter a tourney and you have an item on your character from time traveling, you are giving yourself an advantage that one who doesn't time travel cannot be expected to acquire, ever.
How hard is it to scan over your character before an MFO tourney or what have you, look for items that people who don't time travel could never reasonably be expected to obtain, and then replace them with non-issue items? If the advantages are as slim as you all say, then why do you need them in the first place?
I couldn't care less about anything but the tourneys, where to me, you're saying that there's a level of fair play to it. Now if it's agreed upon that the tourneys are not about fair play, then my point is completely invalid and there's nothing further to discuss.
Take it as insulting if you want. If you enter a tourney and you have an item on your character from time traveling, you are giving yourself an advantage that one who doesn't time travel cannot be expected to acquire, ever.
How hard is it to scan over your character before an MFO tourney or what have you, look for items that people who don't time travel could never reasonably be expected to obtain, and then replace them with non-issue items? If the advantages are as slim as you all say, then why do you need them in the first place?
I couldn't care less about anything but the tourneys, where to me, you're saying that there's a level of fair play to it. Now if it's agreed upon that the tourneys are not about fair play, then my point is completely invalid and there's nothing further to discuss.
You guys are STILL jumping right to the "cheating" part and skipping over the ENTIRE premise upon which saying it's "cheating" is based. Are they considered legitimate within the rules of a tourney? Is it stated that time travel items are ok or are they generally accepted? If they are, then obviously no one is cheating.
What i'm saying is that they should be considered cheating. I am just stating my opinion.
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