The SPF I know

[Smallzz89]

I have ZERO time traveled items. I do use GoMule and RWM. In the recent Magic Find Olympics, I still managed to win the Baal catagory. Now, there could be many reasons why that is, from the other participants having really bad luck to not having alot of time to run. Plus, the character I used had zero items that needed the RWM for me to have.

The argument that people cannot win any of the tourneys without certain items is moot. I have played this game since release, and there is not other game that has ever had such an impact on me. I love this game, and you know what, if people want to take the time to go back and get a certain item for their enjoyment its perfectly fine with me. The only reason I havent is because I am scared i will mess something up and delete what I have accomplished so far for a minimal gain.

I wasn't saying that you couldn't win a tourney without the gear, I was saying that personally I would feel as if winning with said gear wouldn't be as satisfying as the way, for example, you do it. I really respect your dedication in regards to time traveled items.

Saying someone is "cheating" when using plain time traveled gear is not correct. That was the wrong phrase to use in that situation. I would say it's "bogus" as a replacement for a more profane word, but keep in mind this is all personal opinion. I wouldn't understand players that would give themselves unfair advantages and I wouldn't understand tourney organizers that deem it appropriate to include such gear. All personal opinion. In regards to that opinion, I'm in the camp that believes that the game was balanced a certain way around certain items at certain power points, but if the organizers say go for it then you're not "cheating" by using it. I think it's outside of the spirit of competition to use items that shouldn't exist in your version of the game, but once again, this is just personal opinion.

However, stuff that can't exist in the game in either patch but gets warped is, IMO, 100% cheating and shouldn't be allowed. The fact that a person manipulated the game in such a way that it spat out an illegitimate item for them instead of a 3rd party program doesn't mean that it isn't an illegitimate item. I was under the impression that there were people that were using such warped items in tournaments, but according to @Fabian there aren't any such instances, so it's a moot point isn't it?

 

[Smallzz89]

Plus, I would step right up to the plate with anybody in this forum in a tournament regardless of what gear they have(FAM of course)
Luck and play time have such a huge roll in results that gear alone very rarely makes a difference.

You don't have to tell me twice. In my first 200 runs of Pindle on coming back to D2 he dropped me a windforce. I was just about to start complaining about yet another duplicate amazon bow and leave the game when I decided to ID it anyway.

But once again, even though no one says the gear very rarely makes a difference, if it very rarely makes a dif then why use it or allow it at all?

 

[ioupain]

...In regards to that opinion, I'm in the camp that believes that the game was balanced a certain way around certain items at certain power points...

Diablo 2 is certainly better than other games for balance, but it's often because they are woeful rather than Diablo 2 being a panacea. Hammerdins and Blizzard Sorceresses are very overpowered whereas Summoner/Fire Elemental Druids are weak in comparison.

 

[TheNix]

Winning is nice, but the greatest fun in competition is the competing! If you are worried about competing in tournaments, MFO, etc. because you believe that you are going to be out-gunned, then perhaps competition is not for you.

 

[helvete1]

EDIT: Never post early in the morning, when reduced by manflu, and you haven't checked the thread for a while. Makes you reply to posts several pages back.

 

[Kitteh1]

EDIT: Never post early in the morning, when reduced by manflu, and you haven't checked the thread for a while. Makes you reply to posts several pages back.

Honestly, most people wouldn't have noticed that is was several pages back

 

[Grape1]

If I were to host a tournament "who can make a character with the most life" I would agree that time traveler's would get a huge advantage. No sense competing against those.

What I said about time travel and MF tournaments, I stand behind my words. It really makes no difference whether your AT Sorc has a beta CtA or not. Items from the older patches can be very powerful but in the mfing environment they give little to no advantage. I'd rather let people use them, but if it REALLY scares people away ofc I'd be willing to consider changing my barb's merc's 1.07 base to 1.13.

Sorry Fab that I took your Barbarian as an example. His rings and hat are adorable, but where I lose it is your Pit map and playing skills

 

[Fabian]

Grape,

I don't mind at all, no worries. I agree that something like my 1.07 Barb Helm has a very small relative advantage to something like a 1.13 Shako, but I can't agree with you about a beta cta. It's all in the definition of what a huge advantage is, I suppose.

Of course, in many years of community participation, tournaments, etc, I've barely ever seen anyone active within those things disagree with the time travel rules of the forum, or feel it's unfair that they "have to" run against beta ctas, etc. So I'm not too worried about it scaring people away. The recent MFO seems to have drawn a lot of new (at least from my old timer point of view) people in

 

[ffs]

From the perspective of someone who's only been active in this community for less than a year, but having followed these forums and doing the same things people here did for a long time, I do have a strong opinion about some of the things that are accepted here. Personally I don't time-travel and don't consider it quite kosher, but when it comes to stuff like ATMA bugging that's where I really I can't help but eye-rolling, like, super hard. The explanation always seems to be that it was the best decision in a crappy situation, when in reality it seems to me that clearly and very obviously it was the worst decision in a crappy situation since it crossed a decisive boundary, namely: Allowing items that the game simply is not able to generate.

But the fact that I have these opinions doesn't mean I think this should not be allowed on these forums. If most people agree with it I'm cool with it -- and I can confirm that I don't feel at being at a noticeable disadvantage at all when participating in tournaments or stuff like that. Also I can understand how someone who finished every type of project imaginable wants to find a new goal and continue having a challenge with this game, so he goes time-travelling and ATMA bugging. I guess for each player it's only the personal framework of rules that matters - unless such framework is not FAM. I know there are guys much more purist than me as well (no extended stash, no RWM etc.).

 

[helvete1]

In a way, I regret making this thread. However, the flame-storm that I had anticipated turned out to be far less than my fears.

In so many other ways, I think this thread was necessary after all. I would imagine whoever gets the hairy job of revising forum rules would get a lot of insight from reading through it.

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

In a way, I regret making this thread.

I most certainly am glad you did. I think the debate has been fruitfull abeit heated at times, and I think this thread has helped form a concensus about rules, conduct and decorum for this forum. We may have lost a moderator in the process, but that was an inevitable consequence regardless of this thread, I think. I don't feel SPF has come out weaker or split up; on the contrary - I have leared alot about how other members regard this old game and feel that this thread was exactly what this community needed at a critical point.

 

[pharphis]

At the very least your thread sparked discussion and movement for how moderation has and will be working in the future since we've been largely kept in the dark.

 

[ioupain]

Agree with @pharphis, there needs to be some transparency on moderation since times have changed.

For those new to this thread of who haven't followed the course of events, the following comment is a little bit backwards since it is in reply to Helevete's comment on his regret for creating this post:

...We may have lost a moderator in the process...

Just to clear up the order of events, Thyiad's locked 'leaving thread/post' was actually the impetus for this thread's creation, not the other way around. Of course, the root cause of both threads is the topic of hybrid rares.

 

[nulio]

I read some pages of this thread. I won't even try to comment most of it but I'm glad a lengthy discussion happened and is still happening.

I just want to add that I have no doubts that some time travel items are too OP (but super fun to hunt - and made the character planning so much more complex and fun). This was clearly visible in PvP and sometimes in MFO and other tournaments. My comment is just that for any multi player activity there's always a possibility to have different "leagues". PvP/MFO/Hall of records with or without pre 1.13 stuff is an example. Some cons exist for sure, but if it levels the playing field and it'd make everyone happier...

*maybe I'm just saying this because my hard-earned time travel PvP chars are retired anyway *

And of course, if more stuff has been found in the last couple of years, being sure that the rules are up to date is a must.

 

[maxicek]

*maybe I'm just saying this because my hard-earned time travel PvP chars are retired anyway *

You are wrong.
1: Retirement implies you played them in the first place.
2: You will play again.

 

[ffs]

All,

Just wanted to add -- isn't it a bit of a waste to have this just fizzle out. I mean sure, everyone here (i.e. mostly regular active posters) voiced their opinions and exchanged arguments. So to me it seems everybody is just ready to let that be it, and move on with things as they are.

My question is, before that happens: Why not open an extensive poll on this?

For example what I have in mind is asking in respect of each relevant issue whether it should be (1) allowed/FAM generally, (2) restrict trading, (3) restrict tournament participation (e.g. different categories) etc., probably there are numerous other possible ways to deal with certain things once some thought is given to it.

Of course this would not be binding in any way. Also many players who are members here but merely not active right now would not be participating, but many of which could come back any time, so it's not fully representative either. So maybe it won't change much more than for example people's comments in this thread.

But the difference is: It would provide an overview of what the community (and be it only the currently active players) wants the framework to be, and how that relates to the framework actually in place. I for one would be very interested in just getting an impression of that.

 

[ioupain]

@ffs Wholly agree, I advocated for some sort of survey too, just haven't got the time to put one together myself, especially as I have limited knowledge of time travelling and the different permutations and combinations.

 

[ffs]

@ioupainmax So are you putting together something like a draft? Maybe once there is a Google doc or something that others can view and provide their input on, it will be possible to prepare some kind of poll or survey that makes sense.

 

[ioupain]

@ffs Sadly, I'm not since I have a lot on my plate at the minute.

 

[ffs]

Well I don't know the ins and outs of potential issues with all these things either, also - being a relatively new member - I don't think it's my place to sort of initiate something like this, otherwise I'd be happy to do it... I was hoping somebody more seasoned would agree and prepare some kind of questionnaire.