The PvP Thread
- Thread starter nulio
- Start date
Give or take 5000 life I assume.
Nice idea with cube BO, might include that for the 163 FCR variant (resists with 99 FCR are fine on both switches).
See the discussion in this thread above. I understand everyone is fine with these rules posted by Gripphon, and CM not being capped. (The reason for the cap was that it's super hard to maintain decent cold resist against a Sorc with high level CM, especially since we're playing in Hell with -100 by default. But seems people are fine with it anyway.)
@maxicek and @frozzzen can you tell me how you set up your hosting? No idea how to approach this, and also I gathered you went with different options that both seemed to work nicely...
- Oct 8, 2019
- 2,251
- 1,456
- 113
Ah ok, I will see if I pump there or not (surprise factor haha)Give or take 5000 life I assume.
Nice idea with cube BO, might include that for the 163 FCR variant (resists with 99 FCR are fine on both switches).
See the discussion in this thread above. I understand everyone is fine with these rules posted by Gripphon, and CM not being capped. (The reason for the cap was that it's super hard to maintain decent cold resist against a Sorc with high level CM, especially since we're playing in Hell with -100 by default. But seems people are fine with it anyway.)
@maxicek and @frozzzen can you tell me how you set up your hosting? No idea how to approach this, and also I gathered you went with different options that both seemed to work nicely...
- Oct 8, 2019
- 2,251
- 1,456
- 113
- Apr 4, 2020
- 311
- 298
- 63
There will be game tomorrow, not today.
Why was CM limited to 1 point? Mostly because we were too competitively oriented and thought how easy it is to do damage with sorc, single Blizzard taking 2.5k of your HP if you do a wrong teleport. That is, if sorc is made in a "reasonable" way.
I just built Blizzard sorc, once I insert 3 facets in gear slots, she will have:
3k hp with Oak
105 FCR
49% DR
11594-12056 Blizzard damage
5791 Ice Blast damage average (1969 PvP)
Essentially, her kill damage is 3942-4099 aka over 4k
We never had sorc even close in power like this before and I wonder just how strong she really is. I won't play her much, just to test what she can do when played with namelocking game instead of hiding behind random Blizzards.
Gear:
Why was CM limited to 1 point? Mostly because we were too competitively oriented and thought how easy it is to do damage with sorc, single Blizzard taking 2.5k of your HP if you do a wrong teleport. That is, if sorc is made in a "reasonable" way.
I just built Blizzard sorc, once I insert 3 facets in gear slots, she will have:
3k hp with Oak
105 FCR
49% DR
11594-12056 Blizzard damage
5791 Ice Blast damage average (1969 PvP)
Essentially, her kill damage is 3942-4099 aka over 4k
We never had sorc even close in power like this before and I wonder just how strong she really is. I won't play her much, just to test what she can do when played with namelocking game instead of hiding behind random Blizzards.
Gear:
14DR CoA 2 facets (10%) - actually will use 11 DR one for testing, but this would otherwise be a choice
Blizzard Ormus facet (20%)
2/15/13@/39FR amulet
Stormshield facet (5%)
Fathom facet (35%)
Arach
fcr gloves
fcr/stat/mana/res ring
Oak ring
40 FRW high res boots
Inventory:
8x skiller, some resists, rest mana, FHR, FRW...
Blizzard Ormus facet (20%)
2/15/13@/39FR amulet
Stormshield facet (5%)
Fathom facet (35%)
Arach
fcr gloves
fcr/stat/mana/res ring
Oak ring
40 FRW high res boots
Inventory:
8x skiller, some resists, rest mana, FHR, FRW...
Last edited:
- Apr 4, 2020
- 311
- 298
- 63
I like here a lot as a starter build, especially after I respec'ed her to full ES (95%) she's been solid. Great char to get some practice with namelocks (and eventually chainlocks), which are super important in PvP in general. ES/FB Sorc is a rather tanky caster, so she's a good choice to get a good amount of practice with those techniques.
- Oct 8, 2019
- 2,251
- 1,456
- 113
how much life you have with her?
I like here a lot as a starter build, especially after I respec'ed her to full ES (95%) she's been solid. Great char to get some practice with namelocks (and eventually chainlocks), which are super important in PvP in general. ES/FB Sorc is a rather tanky caster, so she's a good choice to get a good amount of practice with those techniques.
Usually nicely built ES/FB sorcs have 1200 - 1500 life total I think? You can also cheat life amount by using 1.07 Arkaine's as it adds ~650 life to your sorc I think. iirc Sapphire had ~1500 on a 200fcr build but that character was crazy well put together.
And yes, it's very simple character to play with and is very strong too. Very good choice for early PvP. Only real problem with Fire/ES is that they have low skill ceiling because you can't do too much with such one dimensional build. That's litereally only flaw she has. You for the most part just spam Fireballs and keep away. And sure, there are some nuances to it but it's enough of the case that we can say she is generally very one dimensional character. If that doesn't bother you it's top tier build (it does bother me for example so I don't play her).
This actually segways somewhat into topic that I wanted to discuss for some time but never took the time to spell it out, namely, shilling Bone Necromancers for people new to PvP. Perhaps we did talk about it, but if Blizzard sorc/Hammerdins are the characters for PvM, then Bone necro is the character for PvP imo.
@d2lover I have 1500 life and 4000 mana with standard setup.
From my personal beginner perspective, offensively Necro arguably does the same as FB Sorc but better. Spirit as a homing projectile can put opponents on defense quickly, and spear does pretty much the same thing as FB and even pierces. He also has better minion stack than Sorc (if ES Sorc uses Oak at all that is).
The big advantage of 95 ES/FB Sorc is that she is so incredibly tanky. Staying alive longer means more practice, not only namelocking but getting a feel for different opponents and what their game plan is.... and practice makes perfect also considering so many PvP builds benefit from good namelocking skills. Necro is just way less forgiving of mistakes even with good defensive stats on paper. 1-2 bad decisions can lead to RIP very quickly. That's why I currently like FB/ES Sorc, but I can definitely see that could change with more experience.
From my personal beginner perspective, offensively Necro arguably does the same as FB Sorc but better. Spirit as a homing projectile can put opponents on defense quickly, and spear does pretty much the same thing as FB and even pierces. He also has better minion stack than Sorc (if ES Sorc uses Oak at all that is).
The big advantage of 95 ES/FB Sorc is that she is so incredibly tanky. Staying alive longer means more practice, not only namelocking but getting a feel for different opponents and what their game plan is.... and practice makes perfect
also considering so many PvP builds benefit from good namelocking skills. Necro is just way less forgiving of mistakes even with good defensive stats on paper. 1-2 bad decisions can lead to RIP very quickly. That's why I currently like FB/ES Sorc, but I can definitely see that could change with more experience.Here's my thoughts on ES/FB armor. Keep in mind that's for 95 ES specifically, things can change with lower ES like 75-80%. IMO there are really only 3 choices for her.
Enigma:
Currently I use this because it allows me to have a bit more life/mana/damage than other setups, and I don't have to worry about FRW. Overall just a solid standard choice with lots of str (i.e. life/mana) and a little bit of %PDR, which is not that important for ES Sorc but still something. But the main reason for me to use this is because personally I have a good inventory for Fire Sorc (5x high life skillers, 1x FHR skiller, high life/mana SCs etc). Enigma allows me to just use my best charms and be done with it rather than worrying about FRW/life/mane/damage too much.
Arkaine's:
1.07 Ark has massive life and an open socket (Sol/Mal whatever) so that's certainly good.
But I wanna repeat my argument for 1.10+ Ark on ES Sorcs as well, in particular against phyiscal damage dealers. It can get up to 22 iPDR with Sol socketing. That's a big deal with 95% ES because so little physical damage actually reaches your life pool.
For example say a Bowazon deals 600 PvP damage per arrow. With 95% ES, only 30 damage will hit the life pool. Now 1.10+ Arkaine's with Sol reduces that by 73%. In comparison, 1.07 Ark with Sol has only 23% damage reduction against that particular arrow.
Obviously it's just one example (albeit a realistic one) and other armors are more benefitial in other situations, but just wanted to illustrate the power of iDR on ES Sorc.
Viper:
Apart from the FCR, an idea with Viper is to stack MDR. That's Mal in helm & armor and using String of Ears... Arach is not needed for FCR.
That's because of an MDR bug which to my knowledge is still in the game and works like this: Say you have 50 MDR, and some physical damage dealer uses an item that includes just a little bit of elemental damage. This is the case in many cases (Highlord's, Faith, Ravenfrost...). Now let's say your MDR negates 20 elemental damage, then the "leftover" 30 MDR will actually be applied as physical iDR. So basically MDR doubles as PDR in such situations. And Viper is generally a great armor.
(Btw IIRC the same applies in reverse with iPDR with Arkaine's and socketing Sols, but does nothing vs casters with pure elemental attacks.)
--
As for CoH or Ormus: Nope. MDR > resists for 95 ES Sorc and otherwise CoH is worse in every respect than the above.
I see no place for Ormus either because I want + all skills (BO, ES, Warmth, Meteor all benefit).
Enigma:
Currently I use this because it allows me to have a bit more life/mana/damage than other setups, and I don't have to worry about FRW. Overall just a solid standard choice with lots of str (i.e. life/mana) and a little bit of %PDR, which is not that important for ES Sorc but still something. But the main reason for me to use this is because personally I have a good inventory for Fire Sorc (5x high life skillers, 1x FHR skiller, high life/mana SCs etc). Enigma allows me to just use my best charms and be done with it rather than worrying about FRW/life/mane/damage too much.
Arkaine's:
1.07 Ark has massive life and an open socket (Sol/Mal whatever) so that's certainly good.
But I wanna repeat my argument for 1.10+ Ark on ES Sorcs as well, in particular against phyiscal damage dealers. It can get up to 22 iPDR with Sol socketing. That's a big deal with 95% ES because so little physical damage actually reaches your life pool.
For example say a Bowazon deals 600 PvP damage per arrow. With 95% ES, only 30 damage will hit the life pool. Now 1.10+ Arkaine's with Sol reduces that by 73%.
In comparison, 1.07 Ark with Sol has only 23% damage reduction against that particular arrow.Obviously it's just one example (albeit a realistic one) and other armors are more benefitial in other situations, but just wanted to illustrate the power of iDR on ES Sorc.
Viper:
Apart from the FCR, an idea with Viper is to stack MDR. That's Mal in helm & armor and using String of Ears... Arach is not needed for FCR.
That's because of an MDR bug which to my knowledge is still in the game and works like this: Say you have 50 MDR, and some physical damage dealer uses an item that includes just a little bit of elemental damage. This is the case in many cases (Highlord's, Faith, Ravenfrost...). Now let's say your MDR negates 20 elemental damage, then the "leftover" 30 MDR will actually be applied as physical iDR. So basically MDR doubles as PDR in such situations. And Viper is generally a great armor.
(Btw IIRC the same applies in reverse with iPDR with Arkaine's and socketing Sols, but does nothing vs casters with pure elemental attacks.)
--
As for CoH or Ormus: Nope. MDR > resists for 95 ES Sorc and otherwise CoH is worse in every respect than the above.
I see no place for Ormus either because I want + all skills (BO, ES, Warmth, Meteor all benefit).
I like Arkaine's. It's about what you want to prioritize. Sometimes Enigma is better sometimes Arkaine's is better.
I think reason why ES feels so incredibly tanky is just the meta as it is right now. Grip and Delsy are playing physical damage characters, and ES is great against those. It's also great vs magic like hammerdins and bone necros. But when you go against elemental casters they can deplete you mana really fast because ES calculates elemental damage on ES like you have 0 resitances. So trap that would do 200 dmg suddenly eats almost 800 mana on ES. Amazon for comparison can take inumberable trap hits, but one good trap lock and you are dead on ES sorc. Vita fireball can probably kill your ES with just two fireballs.
Also I'm not sure how many matches against Whirlwind assassins you had, but once they start whirling over you, chances are you will get out of that exchange with 1 hp due to Venom and OW or die. Don't think we're playing much of them, mostly because they hard counter some caster types and all amazons so hard it's not even funny.
Don't get me wrong, I think FB/ES is great. Character that was historically strongest on SPF PvP was in fact FB/ES sorc, and they have good history of winning tournaments and such. But I think you might be in a bit of a shock when you move from it because how much more damage you will take in general and will have to learn how to play in a way to both conserve your hp and make opportunities on offense.
EDIT: If you want to abuse pdr/mdr and their bugs with 95% ES, then one good armor of choice is Gladiator's Bane. 30fhr 20mdr 25pdr CBF and 50% PLR (and socket) covers a lot of issues with Whirlwind assassins (you can WSG easily with CBF without being slowed by RF cold damage). With 52idr, WW assassins, Bowas, WW barbs and all RF users cannot kill you without getting your mana to 0. You can stay on 1 hp and they simply won't have damage to get trough idr and 95% ES.
I think reason why ES feels so incredibly tanky is just the meta as it is right now. Grip and Delsy are playing physical damage characters, and ES is great against those. It's also great vs magic like hammerdins and bone necros. But when you go against elemental casters they can deplete you mana really fast because ES calculates elemental damage on ES like you have 0 resitances. So trap that would do 200 dmg suddenly eats almost 800 mana on ES. Amazon for comparison can take inumberable trap hits, but one good trap lock and you are dead on ES sorc. Vita fireball can probably kill your ES with just two fireballs.
Also I'm not sure how many matches against Whirlwind assassins you had, but once they start whirling over you, chances are you will get out of that exchange with 1 hp due to Venom and OW or die. Don't think we're playing much of them, mostly because they hard counter some caster types and all amazons so hard it's not even funny.
Don't get me wrong, I think FB/ES is great. Character that was historically strongest on SPF PvP was in fact FB/ES sorc, and they have good history of winning tournaments and such. But I think you might be in a bit of a shock when you move from it because how much more damage you will take in general and will have to learn how to play in a way to both conserve your hp and make opportunities on offense.
EDIT: If you want to abuse pdr/mdr and their bugs with 95% ES, then one good armor of choice is Gladiator's Bane. 30fhr 20mdr 25pdr CBF and 50% PLR (and socket) covers a lot of issues with Whirlwind assassins (you can WSG easily with CBF without being slowed by RF cold damage). With 52idr, WW assassins, Bowas, WW barbs and all RF users cannot kill you without getting your mana to 0. You can stay on 1 hp and they simply won't have damage to get trough idr and 95% ES.
Last edited:
- Apr 4, 2020
- 311
- 298
- 63
Necro and sorc have the same learning curve problem, and that is how to actually become dangerous. New players first learn to stay away and spam spirits/balls/blizzards and randomly hit opponents, doing kills here and there and getting the feeling for PvP.
However, for both necro and sorc to become dangerous, player has to learn to play them more aggressively and engage in a closer exchanges. Opponent who constantly keeps 2 screens away and spams skills is not dangerous, he completely surrenders control into your hands. YOU are the one calling the shots and deciding when and where will fight happen. Will I engage that necro now? Maybe 10 seconds later. Maybe 15. Maybe go there with extended screen teleporting. Maybe walk slowly to see what will he do... Same with sorceress.
Learning to play necro and sorceress offensively is when they become dangerous. Sorceress who never namelocks and never stomps is not dangerous. She will kill with random projectiles the same way someone may occasionally circle the correct answer, but that is just the starting point of learning how to play both sorc and necro.
That being said, vitality firesorc is not tanky, but is more dangerous than ES sorc. ES sorc has 500 damage fireball, vitality one has 900. ES Blizzard sorc has ~2.5k kill damage, vitality one can have 4k. What is more dangerous depends on a playing style. ES sorc is harder to kill but is also less of a threat. Vitality sorc, on the other hand, one mistake and you probably die. Similar story as comparing high life lower damage bowazon and less life huge damage bowazon.
I just know that ES sorc will never be as dangerous as vitality one, not even close. But, she may win a bit more, who knows. I'm not convinced yet
However, for both necro and sorc to become dangerous, player has to learn to play them more aggressively and engage in a closer exchanges. Opponent who constantly keeps 2 screens away and spams skills is not dangerous, he completely surrenders control into your hands. YOU are the one calling the shots and deciding when and where will fight happen. Will I engage that necro now? Maybe 10 seconds later. Maybe 15. Maybe go there with extended screen teleporting. Maybe walk slowly to see what will he do... Same with sorceress.
Learning to play necro and sorceress offensively is when they become dangerous. Sorceress who never namelocks and never stomps is not dangerous. She will kill with random projectiles the same way someone may occasionally circle the correct answer, but that is just the starting point of learning how to play both sorc and necro.
That being said, vitality firesorc is not tanky, but is more dangerous than ES sorc. ES sorc has 500 damage fireball, vitality one has 900. ES Blizzard sorc has ~2.5k kill damage, vitality one can have 4k. What is more dangerous depends on a playing style. ES sorc is harder to kill but is also less of a threat. Vitality sorc, on the other hand, one mistake and you probably die. Similar story as comparing high life lower damage bowazon and less life huge damage bowazon.
I just know that ES sorc will never be as dangerous as vitality one, not even close. But, she may win a bit more, who knows. I'm not convinced yet
Google