The PvP Thread

[frozzzen]

@d2lover The best thing I can really advice you is to read Grip's posts in this thread.
This and this. This should give you 90% of intormation that you really need for joining in the PvP fun
After that, pick a character you want to make and we'll help you theorycraft and gear it properly. It's fun to jump around and pick multiple classes etc but I think you'd be much better by hard deciding on your first character and then sticking to it for a while until you get the basics. Grip's posts does have a suggestion for best starting characters and I think those are some of his better posts overall and worth a read.

 

[Gripphon]

@ffs
Here is what my bowa looks like, a different perspective than usual. Others may provide an insight for usual approach. Just note improvement for my bowa is to use Oak ring instead of one crafted, but I have chosen death obviously because "my precious"

Fire and lightning resistance is a must, poison is rarely present so you can have an option to max it (important!) when needed.

As for paladin, FCR is not of much importance for melee paladins as it is for hammer based paladins. 75 fcr is ideal, but lower breakpoint is perfectly fine, won't affect much in terms of telestomping

 

[ffs]

@Gripphon thanks, that is very similar to what I had in mind for my Bowazon. Although I'll have lower damage (and/or lower life if going for damage) with my measly current-patch charms.

Kira's by default is an interesting choice. Actually this now made me think about making MB Faith as well. It would mean one fewer IAS slot, and I like having some flexibility. Apart from Kira's there are several other options I could think of that could then be included.

Agreed re FCR on V/T Paladin. I'll keep the option to 75 FCR with PB Grief, but will generally roll with the 48 FCR BP. I settled on a CoA setup with 45% PDR now. That's after I found two Surs in quick succession while farming gold in Trav for gambling, and made this toy:

Spoiler

Crown of Ages
Corona
Defense: 399
Durability: 45 of 50
Required Level: 82
Required Strength: 174
Fingerprint: 0xf33d0148
Item Level: 87
Version: Expansion 1.10+
Indestructible
+1 to All Skills
+30% Faster Hit Recovery
+50% Enhanced Defense
+150 Defense
All Resistances +25
Damage Reduced by 22%
Cannot Be Frozen 2 Sockets (2 used)
Socketed: Ber Rune
Socketed: Cham Rune

I still have more Jah/Cham than Ber runes.

My best rolled 2os CoA was recently filled with 2x Ber, but I figured I could use another one with a Cham as well for some flexibility on builds that need CNBF, such as V/T Pally. I really don't like wasing a ring slot by using Raven just for the CNBF, especially on builds that don't even benefit from the AR like this guy. Anyway, think he's ready to go now!

@d2lover and @frozzzen IMO there's nothing wrong with trying multiple builds to get a feeling for the various aspects of PvP. I started with three, namely Fire Sorc, Bone Necro and Hammerdin, and I am happy I did because learned a lot by rotating between them. For example Bone Necro and FB Sorc may seem similar, but they have very different pros and cons. Also consider the ease of building a PvP char and gear dependency to make it functional. Hammerdin is a prime example because you can literally take any dull and boring PvM Hammerdin, swap 1-2 item (+DR, +resists) and you're good to go... Happy shift-clicking. Same probably applies to a lot of lower tier builds such as Zealots, Chargers or whatnot... if it's easy to tweak it for PvP, no harm in going for it IMO.

 

[Gripphon]

That is a beautiful helm there, @ffs
Chamber CoA

PvP is not about the characters, it is about players, playing styles, ideas. What works for someone may not work for someone else, test is the best way to go. Some characters can be built in several ways, and you know what? All of those ways are good in their own ways! Besides, giving some special flavor to our character is what PvP is all about.

I wish we could once have PvP with very unique and rare builds. Imagine that.

 

[frozzzen]

I wish we could once have PvP with very unique and rare builds. Imagine that.

Imagine that

 

[Gripphon]

@frozzzen
When will we see that doggy? Don't be shy, introduce him. Her. Hmmm. It.

 

[d2lover]

Any weird rules I have to know about like sorc vs baba has to wear no shield?

GM, after bnet convention?

 

[Gripphon]

Basically this, simpler version of rules from the first page of this thread. Let me know everyone if this is fine with you, we have some strange limitations on poison and replenish which makes no sense at all.

Overall, play for fun. Don't camp in houses or some similar silly things

General PvP rules
1. Mana potions are allowed for all classes (except for the ES sorceress).
2. It is allowed to drop potions in front of blood moor entrance or on map. Same applies to arrows.
3. No merc

Skills
4. Banned skills are: Slow Missiles, Holy Freeze, Meditation, Prayer, Cleansing, Iron Maiden, Decrepify, Bone Prison, Life Tap and Clay Golem. Those skills are banned in any form or shape, regardless of their source. (Doom, Exile, Lawbringer etc)
5. Items containing banned skills charges aren't banned but using those charges is. (Marrowwalks, Sanctuary etc)
6. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class

Absorb
7. Maximum resists are capped at 85 without any absorb.
8. 75 resists + 20% absorb is allowed, 80 resists + 12% sorb is allowed.
9. Banned items: 1.07 LoH, Rising Sun, Blackoak Shield, Hotspurs, Thundergods Vigor.

Prebuff
10. As long as it doesn't slow games down. You could ask other players if it is okay to prebuff longer if needed (Fuzzydodger for example)

 

[d2lover]

Ok, @maxicek said it to me in another thread that Dungo should have 10 liferep to match 50 with hoto.

Would it be ok for you if I use this one (my only 15% DR right now, traded my other away)
12 rep as you see

Verdungo's Hearty Cord
Mithril Coil
Defense: 144
Durability: 15 of 16
Required Level: 63
Required Strength: 106
Fingerprint: 0x1c701a79
Item Level: 86
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+10% Faster Hit Recovery
+119% Enhanced Defense
+36 to Vitality
Replenish Life +12
+116 Maximum Stamina
Damage Reduced by 15%

I think I make a Blizzard sorc (no ES), because I played that char since my youth (not pvp tho)

Setup would be (if I'm not overseeing something):

Enigma or Ormus, I think enigma is better with the dr and mass life, but ormus allows me to use DF, but that one is garbage (18%)
Hoto 40@
Shako 'Um' (hesitating to put a Ber into non perf...)
random 35 spirit
Trang gloves
which gives me 95% fcr so :
1 fcr ring (i think the best I have has 22 str and 20 life bloodcraft)
SoJ or BK, I will see wheather I need the mana
Aldurs Boots to fill the spirit gap, I believe I have nothing better
Dungo 15%, 12 liferep, 36 vita
maras 30@

Inventory:
Skillers mostly without any useful adds, could swap some out for more life and mana and fhr (i think I need 5% for the next cap)

This is all gear I have, I have quite a few 19 and 20 life scs and even 3 good mana scs.

Are you all playing in nightmare now? (that was the last time I checked this thread thoroughly)

The SoJ or BK can obviously be swapped for Raven/Dwarf/ and an ugly whisp against elemental teams, and that would be ok right?

CTA+Spirit on swap of course

Ah btw, are 1.10s runewords allowed? (I have a +6 1.14d one just in case)

 

[Gripphon]

We do have a rule of replenish cap of 50 (and poison cap at some value), but, in all practicality, no one cares about it. We are good mannered players and no one is running away for minutes to replenish life just to win a single fight. We fight to the death, like a real men, and 50 replenish or 100 replenish, doesn't really matter. Honestly, if someone can build a competitive character who has 100 replenish, I think that would be awesome

Poison cap - like, charms barely do damage...

Sorc looks good. Having Oak ring if not using Hoto will make her stronger and more durable.

 

[d2lover]

has this any chance to beat maras in that setup (i could swap for another soj/BK)

Entropy Beads
Amulet
Required Level: 67
Fingerprint: 0xb93ada2e
Item Level: 97
Version: Expansion 1.10+
5% Chance to cast level 3 Chain Lightning on attack
+2 to Sorceress Skill Levels
+10% Faster Cast Rate
All Resistances +13
Lightning Resist +22%
15% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items

I think not, because it just means one more skill on blizzard
but maras + the fcr ring gives me more I think

 

[frozzzen]

Life rep is completely irrelevant. 50 or something won't matter much. Only place where it makes a difference is in super sweaty duels where people play defensively for 10 minutes to get life back. That's not on SPF.

I think streamlining rules could help. I agree with Grip's post above except...
6. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class <--- this should be removed, no point in keeping it imo

I personally went for 2/10 amulet and 2 x beta BKWB for 105 fcr setup. If you have beta rings it's easy choice, and your amulet is really good. If not you will have to do some math around it and see how those setups work and how are your resistances holding up.

 

[d2lover]

Life rep is completely irrelevant. 50 or something won't matter much. Only place where it makes a difference is in super sweaty duels where people play defensively for 10 minutes to get life back. That's not on SPF.

I think streamlining rules could help. I agree with Grip's post above except...
6. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class <--- this should be removed, no point in keeping it imo

I personally went for 2/10 amulet and 2 x beta BKWB for 105 fcr setup. If you have beta rings it's easy choice, and your amulet is really good. If not you will have to do some math around it and see how those setups work and how are your resistances holding up.

Ah ok, I don't have betas yet, but sure then it will be better

Ok, then I respecc my sorc and try to slay someone

 

[maxicek]

@maxicek said it to me in another thread that Dungo should have 10 liferep to match 50 with hoto.

Really? Link or it didn't happen
The rules originally came from 1.10 before everyone had Enigma. Then it was perfectly feasible to hide in a corner an replenish your life.

For general casual games, those rules are good for me @Gripphon . It is basically what we play anyway. We should tidy up the first post too, there are too many rulesets there which we never use.
I also wonder why meditation is still banned now we allow mana pots. I don't think anyone will use it, it is just a bit odd. Allowed for all classes except ES Sorcs?

I think streamlining rules could help. I agree with Grip's post above except...
6. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class <--- this should be removed, no point in keeping it imo

It was you & Grip who added that one in in the first place

Also Grip, are your PvP write ups on this site? Would be great if you can move them over, we don't want to lose them.

 

[ffs]

Chamber CoA

Damn I didn't think about that, I went BerCham rather than ChamBer... Will have to Hel them out and go with the correct order I guess.

I'm fine with the rules mentioned above, but also fine with the ones on the first page.

Not sure about removing the 1pt CM limit though. Having played a Blizzard Sorc in the beginning I still found that rule totally plausible, just because others would have to carry so much CR overstack gear just to deal with that single matchup if Blizzard is around...

On the Blizzy topic, @d2lover on your Sorc I'd try to include more damage reduction somehow or at least have some gear stashed to allow you to do that. When my Sorc was in Blizzard spec I used Stormshield as main shield even. Can easily maintain 105 FCR with Ormus or Viper, it's a good armor in general. Without Anni/Torch it's kinda hard to go for maxblock with SS though (rather Whitstan's) so I just took the 35% PDR.

It may be down to personal play style, but I gotta say I so didn't regret switching her to FB/ES and in particular when I brought ES to 95%, she's crazy tanky and much more forgiving of mistakes (and I make plenty). With non-ES Sorc I probably played a bit too aggressively, but she is squishy really. Without the necessary experience to make the right decisiosn, I got slaughtered pretty bad.

--

Next session when? I have 3 new characters: V/T Paladin, Bowazon and a surprise Barb... looking forward to (painfully) learning about gameplay with them.

 

[frozzzen]

Next session weekend. I can leave game up during entirety of Fri/Sat/Sun and you'll have to arrange matches. So you better start arranging them and see how the schedules work for you guys.

On topic of Blizzard, Orb and CM. I was thinking about it and came to conclusion that we should leave CM to its own. I do believe that in terms of power of cold sorc, it is best for them if they go 1 point CM and rest in ES to make ES/Blizzard. Usually no one bothers to stack resistances anyway because it's impossible to begin with. And who does it affect the most? If anyone, it's mostly people who want to try PvP and try to convert their PvE Blizzard sorcs to PvP, and they are by far most common characters among the PvM dedicated people. I think we should remove that as barrier to entry. That's all (don't get me wrong, I still don't like cold corcs at all).

I think that ES/Blizzard with 1 point in CM is best cold sorc archetype. Orb/ES can work very well and it comes with 95% ES to boot because Orb needs very few synergies, but build has very little room for personal growth because it just spams Orb all day without much options. In general sorcs with maxblock tend to need really good charms to get either max resists and sufficient life because you need both heavy investment in both str and dex, not limited to cold skill tree. Vita ones tend to hit exceptionally hard regardless of the element, but they die really easily. Still I'd take them over maxblock.

tl;dr
ES >>>>> vita with %dr > maxblock for all sorcs.

 

[ffs]

Yeah, that's in line with my (very) limited Sorc PvP experience. I didn't try maxblock but I do believe without stats from Anni/Torch (and probably even more from rings, boots etc) it's not very good for us SPFers. Just requires too many stat points.

On ES, I also found there's a very noticeable difference between going 20/1 in TK/ES in comparison to 20/20 plus Memory pre-buff. It is much tankier, and integer MDR/PDR shenanigans become even more effective. My Sorc did much better with 95% ES and only ~12k FB dmg than with ~75-80% ES and ~15k FB dmg.

At least the above is from the perspective of a PvP noob making numerous bad decisions/teleports. I could see that pure vita or mid-level ES can work just fine for experienced players who don't make stupid decisions and generally know what to do to stay alive.

Next session weekend. I can leave game up during entirety of Fri/Sat/Sun and you'll have to arrange matches. So you better start arranging them and see how the schedules work for you guys.

Nice my weekend plans aren't final yet but should be able to join at least one day, probably two.

 

[Gripphon]

Let's revisit some of the banned skills to see do we really have to ban them. As stated, this isn't 2010. anymore. What I believe the point of banning skills is to balance the fights. If some skill may really disbalance certain fight, it should be banned.

Slow Missiles - BAN, too much impact
Decrepify - BAN, too much impact
Holy Freeze - BAN, too much impact

Bone Prison - too much impact on fights, characters who walk are already in disadvantage, using this could make them lose a fight on the spot (spirits chasing, Blizzard...) BAN

Iron Maiden - I believe it is too much impact if used together with summoned minions like walls. It further cripples already hardly seen melee builds. BAN

Clay Golem - I tested right now, his slow lasts over 30 seconds. Barb is moving so slow he will hardly escape trap fields and even has hard time outrunning spirits. Berserk is too slow and useless. Melee paladin is slower in attacking, but has charge and might still work decently well, although weaker. Don't know about kicker. However, considering necro has blood golem who is just fine and hardly more mana expensive minion, I don't really see why Clay Golem has to be around just to cripple already tough to play melee characters... And what does necro lose? 19 mana to summon blood golem if fire one is too expensive? Therefore... BAN

Meditation - does this seem too strong for team duels when ES sorceress is around? I don't know. The primary issue is it regenerates both mana and life via Prayer.

Prayer/Cleansing - gives life regeneration, easily in 50+ range every 2 seconds. Is this too strong? In theory, it inspires defensive playing style charging around and regeneration. In reality, someone would have to have aura active for around 80 seconds to regenerate 1000 life which would mean limited time teleporting and limited time using some damage aura. Could this be abused in some way? Let's assume we won't hide in the corner to regenerate to truly use this a bit too much. Have in mind paladin investing into Prayer is making his core build idea to be weaker.

In team duels, would Cleansing aura with 50+ heal be too strong to play against? Paladin using Cleansing is not exactly doing damage himself. I don't know should we open this box or simply keep these auras banned for simplicity. Or allow them then ban them if someone manages to show us these are simply too strong to be used.

Life Tap - I think this would create imbalanced fights in otherwise reasonably balanced ones. 50% life stolen per hit would mean it is best to run away from your opponent until curse wears off. Or pretend you have no idea what is happening and fight him. it would also make some possible to win fights into impossible ones. I'd say BAN

1 point Cold Mastery - idea was to slightly weaken Blizzard which otherwise does over 2k damage while being invisible. Although it isn't an issue to allow it back on. Blizzard is as it is. For simplicity we could just remove this limitation, although I'd like to test this sorc to see just how strong she really is.

 

[maxicek]

I had a think about them all too, I think the list is pretty much OK. I didn't know you can use parayer to synergise Meditation and regenerate life. So keep it banned.

On the 1pt mastery as frozz said, my biggest problem with this is it stops people just bringing a PvM blizz sorc to give PvP a try. Maybe something like "CM 1 point only. This rule is waived for new players with PvM focussed characters."

Available Saturday or Sunday around the usual time.

 

[Nona]

Sorry to be such a noob….all these characters have to be softcore? HC dueling results in permadeath?