PJ / Daggerzon idea

[T72on1]

A post over at the Basin about Plague Javelin sparked my interest, so I did some theorycrafting about a possible build. However, I tend to get carried away a bit too much at times when the pieces of the puzzle seem to fall into place 200%, so I thought I'd post about it here before trying it out.

The plan is to play her as a hybrid PJ / Daggerzon. The idea is simple: throw a PJ, and while the poison slowly takes the monsters' life, I speed up the process by stabbing them to death. This build would tick off several boxes for me:

• do a build I have never done before - I have used PJ to some minor extent in the past as backup for a Furyzon, but respecced to full Lightning in the end; I have also done melee Zons, but never a Daggerzon
• make progress on my runeword grail and actually use the items instead of just having them as trophies
• (optional, depending on which weapon I choose) finally make use of Fleshrippers, one of the coolest items in the game in my opinion

The build would be pretty straightforward: max Poison Javelin and Plague Javelin, max Decoy, get Valk to 17 points after + skills, get Critical Strike to 15+, maybe maxed. Leftover points in Penetrate, Valk or the D/A/E skills.

As for gear I was wondering what would be best: Bramble or Treachery. People usually seem to use Bramble because of the big +PSD, but I've always remembered that the Venom proc from Treachery does amazingly good things for poison based builds because of it's very short duration and because of how it interacts with poison skills in general. But the, when searching for gear options for the other slots, it struck me: the Dragon runeword has a CTC Venom as well !! Wow, so I can have the best of both worlds? Sounds too good to be true. And that's exactly the main reason why I'm posting here. To get an opinion about Bramble and the Venom skill. Not in the least because, when I put some numbers into @onderduiker 's Poison Damage Calculator, it seems to me that Venom only increases the poison damage of the javelin hit itself, not that of the poison cloud that get's released upon impact. Moreover, it seems to increase the duration by a large amount, so the damage / second probably isn't higher, and maybe even lower. Then again, it's definitely not certain that I was using the calculator the right way .

As a side note, Bramble and Dragon would be the two new runewords for my runeword grail, so I definitely hope that they are the best options as far as PJ go. As you can see, I'm not entirely sure about that though. Moreover, unlike with Treachery, Dragon's CTC Venom is on being hit. Since I'll be using it on my throw switch, so from a distance, it might be hard to keep up Venom all the time.

Other gear would be as following. Note that there's still quite some room to manouvre. Focus is on maximizing PJ damage, while still keeping things acceptable on the dagger side.

• Weapon 1: Titan's
• Shield 1: Dragon Kite Shield (reason for the base is it has low str req, and very low block chance, increasing the odds for Venom to trigger)
• Weapon 2: Fleshripper or Fury Fanged Knife (both have very similar stats, but the extra damage and CB seem to favor Fleshripper - moreover I've always wanted to try that weapon out, and I'm not sure I'm ready to spend a Jah rune on an underwhelming runeword like Fury)
• Shield 2: Sanctuary Troll Nest (Sanctuary seems to have all I need: massive resists, fbr, fhr, increased blocking, big dex; there are other options, but this one seems to give me most freedom for the other gear slots - Troll Nest because it's a Light shield and I love the looks of it, but the normal and exceptional counterparts only get 2 os; if I did my calculations right, the increased str req compared to for example a Kite Shield would be compensated for by needing less Dex for max block; if I decide not to go for max block, which definitely is an option with Decoy, Valk and D/A/E available, Kite Shield would be the best option)
• Helm: CoA or rare with +2 skills, resists (mainly lightning) and 2os (CoA seems to be tailor made for this build, but it has a huge str req; 2x Hel would help somewhat, but still ...)
• Body Armor: Bramble
• Gloves: Trang's
• Belt: probably Thundergod's, otherwise SoE or a rare (Thundergod's light absorb would make other gear slots more flexible, and the other mods are very welcome too; maybe even the LF to deal with poison and physical resistant monsters)
• Boots: Gores or rares with frw, resists and fhr (fhr in this slot would mean I'd only need 6% more to reach the 86% breakpoint)
• Amulet: Mara's, Highlord's or rare / crafted (Highlord's probably doesn't do much for this build compared to Mara's, as the extra DS doesn't add up to far more damage due to high CS)
• Ring 1: Ravenfrost
• Ring 2: rare with useful mods like life leech, AR, dam, resists, mana leech if needed (probably not), second Ravenfrost or Bul-Kathos'

Charms: skillers and life SCs, fhr if needed
Sockets: ias jewel somewhere to reach the fastest attack speed breakpoint if using Fleshripper, otherwise poison facets, maybe Shael in helm if needed for the 86% fhr breakpoint

Merc: Act 1 cold Rogue with Faith, Treachery and Blackhorne's (ias jewel).

Edit: the Blackhorne's on the merc was mainly because of the slow, but somehow I missed that Fleshripper has the same amount of slow, so the Blackhorne's would be redundant. In that case one of the life leech helms is probably better. Or a Nightwing's Veil, to boost her cold damage some more.

To my surprise, there isn't a single PJ/Daggerzon in our Mat/Pat/Guardian collection, and a quick search on internet didn't reveal any either. So I'm probably missing out on something. But I still hope I don't .

Ok, shoot !!

 

[D2DC]

Correct, Venom is only applied to the javelin. Venom's dps should continue over the entire duration on PJ though. It adds up. Instead of relying on Dragon, you could slap an Andy's or Arachnid Mesh on for some Venom Charges.

 

[ioupain]

Was just going to suggest Venom charges but @DiabloTwoinDC beat me to it.

Also don't forget Razortail for the Pierce.

 

[T72on1]

Pierce isn't really suggested for PJ in most guides due to the shorter range of PJ.

Venom charges might be a thing . Although it sounds troublesome to use those all the time. And they are low level.

 

[ioupain]

Good point, I forgot about the range issues.

 

[Maltatai]

Don't you mean Blackhorns instead of Blackthornes? Or is it a pun related to using the bramble runeword? Anyways, don't discount that helm. Charged bolts can be just that dangerous for the mercenary because they cover up the whole screen when some pesky beetles turn up. The rogue will be protected from most other dangers by the other party members anyway. Besides, it will take some time to slow everyone with your dagger and if you meet a really lethal bosspack it is very beneficial to be able to apply it from a distance before you engage.

Are venom charges really worth considering? A level 3 venom isn't very powerful... And if the rogue will wear treachery anyway, just exchange armors from time to time and charge up venom. With 25% chance to cast it goes super quick. You can also conveniently see on the weapon when you need to recharge.

Since you will likely want to invest a lot into attack rating to be able to use the dagger well there is the path of poison javelin too. Since it can be thrown more often than plague javelin and has much longer duration you can use envenomed poison javelins with a good amount of pierce as a crowd attack. It would be a build more focused on small groups and single target enemies. Slower than plague javelin focus but much safer since you have much better sneaky hit and run capacity. It is also a lot of fun since effectiveness depends more on your aiming and positioning. Killing four devilkin in a row with one cast is hilarious. A bonus is that it gives a reason to wear treachery as a main armor which improves the daggerzon part a lot with attack speed and the chance to cast fade when hit. The attack speed would also let you cast lightning bolt against dual immune enemies very quickly.

What curse will you use? Have you considered giving the rogue delirium? I'm raising the question since you want to maximize plague javelin and in that case you would want monsters to gather in large grups to be poisoned all at once. Then confuse is good since it attracts monsters from far away and being confused they won't swarm you as quickly as otherwise. Plague javelin lasts long enough for keeping two or three separate groups poisoned I think (not having much experience with twinked skill charms) and you would consequently be more effective if you can summon enough groups to take advantage of that potential. The fact that confuse will hold up the big mob for a while would also enable you to make use of pierce and plague javelin as you could then close in without being molested, to counteract the short range of the skill.

EDIT: It strikes me that you should of course make one daggerzon with plague javelin and one with poison javelin and compare the two approaches! Let's both have the poisoned cake and eat it! You can present your results to the forum in the form of a dramaticed walkthrough for example...

Don't forget to make snide comments about social media if you use a troll nest shield. Especially the runeword sanctuary just begs for sarcasms about forums where trolls roam freely.

 

[onderduiker]

Venom's damage rate and duration are only added to the javelin, not the clouds, of Poison and Plague Javelins. In the absence of -% Enemy Poison Resistance or target Poison Length Reduced (only the Ancients, or players and their mercenaries and some pets), Venom only adds 0.4 second to javelin duration but significantly increases its damage per second, the minimum and maximum of which are displayed in the last two columns of my calculator, after Seconds.

As such, and because Plague Javelin also has a 4 second casting delay, I'd recommend Bramble, not Treachery or Dragon.

I'd also recommend a source of Amplify Damage or Decrepify, since in Act V you can encounter Ghosts, Wraiths and Specters that are Immune to Physical (100%) and Poison (100%), as well as Night Marauders (100% and 105%) in the Halls of Vaught and Gloams, Black and Burning Souls, all with Damage Resist 90% and Immune to Poison (105%, 110% and 115% respectively) and Lightning (100%).

 

[Gynli]

Not sure if youll have room to fit this in... but medusas gaze seems like a fun idea here.

Horrible req and no useful stats... but it does have CTC lower resist on struck =P

The slow will add with fleshripper quite nicely too

 

[T72on1]

@Maltatai I meant Blackhorn's, thanks for correcting me.

I considered Delirium on the merc, but discarded it in the end because I know it can attract a lot of monsters, and as such I was afraid my Amazon could be confronted with too many monsters at the same time. You make a valid point though, that that's exactly what should work well to maximize the effect of PJ. Moreover Decoy and Valk should keep me safe.

The suggestion of switching Treachery with my merc once in a while is a very good one. However, I dislike switching stuff around a lot, so I probably won't go there. Same reason why I also plan not to use CtA or a wand with LR charges.

@onderduiker Thanks. When you say that you'd recommend Bramble, not Treachery or Dragon, do you mean you'd recommend Bramble over Treachery or Dragon? Or do you mean you wouldn't go with Bramble and Treachery or Dragon? If so, because it's not worth it, or because it's actually worse to do so?

I'll have to think about a source of Amp and Decrep, thanks for the tip. I might not bother and just skip them (or reroll to get another monsters spawn), or I might use either a Lawbringer in those cases, or an Atma's Scarab.

@Gynli I looked into Medusa's Gaze. But the str req is way too steep. And it also wouldn't be practical, as you want the LR to proc before you throw PJ. But at that time you're still out of range of monsters, so you won't get hit.

Edit: if Dragon isn't a good option after all, then I'll probably go for a 3os shield with 3 poison facets. Or a Lidless Wall with a poison facet in it.

 

[ioupain]

The suggestion of switching Treachery with my merc once in a while is a very good one. However, I dislike switching stuff around a lot, so I probably won't go there.

I'm the same, I really hate switching. I'm actually trying this approach right now (underpowered build) and it gets annoying quite quickly!

 

[Grape1]

Interesting idea. There's really much to consider, I'm sure it will work, but to get the most fun out of this!

I think you could use more physical damage amplifiers to your Dagger side, what about Phoenix shield on main switch? That 350-400ED% would actually make a notable difference, nice little substitute for Fortitude right there.

Also, Grief has high CtC Venom, just saying... There's dozens of hybrids to consider with Daggerzons, should you go GRIEFAZON!

 

[T72on1]

Phoenix definitely is an interesting option. I'll be hard pressed to get my resists elsewhere though. Kira's would be the best option in that case, methinks. Then again, with Phoenix, Ravenfrost and Thundergod's I'd have absorb for fire, cold and lightning, so resists maybe wouldn't be that important.

Grief indeed has CtC Venom. I've already done a Griefazon in the past though, so this time it's daggers ftw. And like I said, I hate switching gear around all the time, so I won't use Grief as backup either.

I couldn't resist starting this character during my lunch break. I won't get her anywhere before my holiday. Well, and not in the first weeks afterwards either, as I'll be joining the MFO first then, and finish a set of 10 - 20 hours with the Pitbarb afterwards, probably most of it outside of the actual MFO. Still, it was nice to get things going. Stabbing things to death with a Gull dagger was satisfying. Poison Javelin killed quite nicely too. O yes, and at least Cain is grateful for being rescued ... again .

 

[onderduiker]

@onderduiker Thanks. When you say that you'd recommend Bramble, not Treachery or Dragon, do you mean you'd recommend Bramble over Treachery or Dragon? Or do you mean you wouldn't go with Bramble and Treachery or Dragon? If so, because it's not worth it, or because it's actually worse to do so?

Sorry, I hadn't realised that might be interpreted as an extended neither/nor statement: I recommend Bramble's +(25-50)% Poison Skill Damage for Plague Javelin's cloud damage, I don't recommend Chance to Cast Venom from Dragon or Treachery just for its javelin damage (although Maltatai made some good points about possibly using Treachery for its other bonuses, and "because I can and I want to, damn it!" is a perfectly valid reason to use anything at this point).

With a Fanged Knife you need 68 Increased Attack Speed for maximum 7 frame attack speed, which is achievable with Trang-Oul's Claws and without Treachery (20 from Shael Rune in weapon, 20 from Highlord's Wrath or Cat's Eye Amulet, 30 from two Jewels of Fervor socketed in helm or shield). It only takes 32 IAS for 8 frame attack speed.

If I recall correctly, the Amazon in your Grief septumvirate was pure Passive and Magic, and depending on how enjoyable you found playing her and the importance of novelty you may want to replace the dagger with a Grief Phase Blade: 35% Chance to Cast Level 15 Venom on Striking, -(20-25)% Enemy Poison Resistance which would affect any monsters poisoned (again) after swapping, and 7 frame attack speed with 72 IAS, 30-40 of which is on the weapon itself.

 

[zemaj]

Only thing I really have to add is if you do stay dagger, you can get Poison Dagger charges on rings, which with all the talk of Vemon procs would synergize well, and be nice for any tough single targets.

 

[Namtar]

Never tried a daggerzon myself, but I've had fun with Fleshripper on necromancers, including a PD necro where poking monsters to death with Fleshripper was my backup for dealing with unbreakable PI. It worked pretty well. Fleshripper packs a punch. Best dagger. 10/10. Would stab again.

 

[WoRG1]

Don't use Grief.... You're making a super cool, off-the-beaten-path character here, please don't throw away all the awesome style points just to make yet another Grief-toon....

There's no denying that Grief is SUPER OP, a game-dominating pile of impossible-to-beat stats, so good it's almost always the most effective option possible...and for that reason, in my opinion, it severely reduces the style points you gain for using other, less common items and builds (I feel much the same way about Enigma, to be honest...) Don't get me wrong, I have (and use!) multiple Griefs and Enigmas, but IMO they are the very epitome of "Cookie-Cutter"

Regarding the Venom proc from Dragon, can't you do what Treachery users do and stand in a fire until it procs?

Edit: Another great reason not to use Grief: Block rate...Zon's block speed sucks with 1h swing weaps; with Sanctuary 13 frames, with Phoenix, 17 frames (Ouch!!)

WoRG

 

[T72on1]

Thanks for all the replies.

@WoRG No worries. The Dagger theme will stay, if only for the reasons you mention. It's too bad that a few runewords make almost all uniques and sets obsolete. So if I won't use the Fleshripper now, I probably never will. Which is exactly why I will use it. Besides, as I said, I already started the character, and I just loved stabbing things to death with the Dagger. It felt so ... right .

Not an edit: the slow block rate with most weapons is another reason why I will use Daggers. I hate slow blocking. It's something I notice again now, with my FC/Maul Werebear. It trumps any build so much.

@onderduiker I most likely will use an Act 1 merc with Faith. That would mean I'd only need 11% ias with the Fleshripper, which is easily obtainable.

Rest of the gear I guess I'll do some testing and see what works best. I'll probably keep Dragon for another build though and try Phoenix first, as @Grape suggested. Although that would mean going for a high str investment as well, on a non-CtA build. Ah well, we'll see how it goes.

Btw, I checked my stashes yesterday, and apparantly have 4 Fleshrippers. None of them eth (I actually knew that, but for some reason I was hoping I was wrong ), but the best one has a 286% ED roll, so quite nice. Later today I'll probably make my Bramble armor. Base will be whatever looks best on a Zon, as defense isn't important for this character (or most characters who might use the armor in the future) and the runewords has a fixed amount of defense added anyway, not percentage based. Wish me luck on the roll .

 

[Zyr]

@T72on1, couple of things for you to consider while testing.

I have five Plaguezons, one of which wears TGod's. The two most recent wear Razortail. It's commonly supposed that, because of the short distance Plague Javelin travels, Pierce is not of much help to the skill. My experience is very much to the contrary: I cast a Decoy, then toss a Plague Javelin at it, knowing that many ebil critters will be gathered around it by the time the green cloud arrives. If, however, a critter runs between Zon and Decoy, without 100% Pierce the javelin is often blocked, and that four second timer seems like an eternity. For me, a Plaguezon is much less stressful to play with 100% Pierce.

I also suggest you consider a single point in Lightning Fury for Poison Immunes. Because LF always hits (though it can be blocked), it's an excellent way to deliver Physical damage without weapon-switching, and 100% Pierce turns it (back) into a multi-target attack. While I admire and applaud your Daggerzon desires, I would not wish to personally hand-carve every Corpse Spitter, Corpulent, Maw Fiend, Blood Maggot, Burning Dead Archer, etc.

I'll probably keep Dragon for another build though and try Phoenix first, as @Grape suggested.

While you're testing "Phoenix" with the dagger, you might consider also trying it on the javelin switch, to observe the damage dealt by your single point in Lightning Bolt with and without the shield. What it does for LB, it would also do for LF, but more so.