2017 Winter RFL Signup and Running Thread: Grande Finale
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T72on1
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- Feb 12, 2016
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Did 90 more minutes, but at that point, after some 6 hours without a qualifier, I was completely through with Cows. Did some 170 LK runs hoping I'd get a Sur or Ber, in which case I would make Enigma and continue Cows with my Javazon, but no luck. I know 170 LK runs isn't much to get those runes, but I'm now some 3000 LK runs without Sur or Ber. So I figured that statistically I was almost certain to find a Sur or Ber 
.
Anyway, long story short ... I'm probably done with this round, after some 11 hours. I might do some more runs before next Friday, but currently I completely don't feel like it.
O yes, I continued my oskill sept WW Assassin after the LK runs, and got a Pul from NM forge, followed by an Um in CS. O sweet irony ...
.Anyway, long story short ... I'm probably done with this round, after some 11 hours. I might do some more runs before next Friday, but currently I completely don't feel like it.
O yes, I continued my oskill sept WW Assassin after the LK runs, and got a Pul from NM forge, followed by an Um in CS. O sweet irony ...
Using lightning is not too hard I think, just requires some herding which should be done anyway. The range (as in width) of the lightning is actually really better than it looks from the graphics. CL is there to pick up the leftovers. I'm using both skills all the time.
EDIT: Regarding mpk, it's important to note that it's not nearly as important as it is for java or necro. Silkweave on its own is actually sufficient.
Eschuta's by all means, in general I would never use it over Hoto because the extra damage is just laughable. But why not go for it when running cows where the extra stats of Hoto are not really important either, I guess something is better than nothing.
After a few calculations I've realized the difference between CM and Eschuta's (taken over Hoto for sake of calculations) in damage is actually almost non-existent.
Assumptions/test setup (rounded numbers)
Average Lightning damage with CM: 12k (24k/2) (in my case)
Average Lightning damage with Eschuta's: 15k (30k/2) (in my case)
50% lightning resistance of hell cows
Conviction lvl 12 (-85%)
Griffon's + RBF (-23%/+18% in my case) calculated as -25%
Eschuta's with +3/+19% in my case
6 skillers in inventory
Lvl 92 Sorc (remaining points will go to Lightning Mastery, which diminishes Eschuta's value a bit in the long run)
- Average CM damage (no Conviction): 12k *1.1 (cows have -10% LR) = 13.8k
- Average CM damage (Conviction): 12k *1.95 (cows have -95% LR) = 23.4k
- Average Eschuta damage (no Conviction): 15k - (25/100)*(15k) (cows have 25% LR) = 11.3k
- Average Eschuta damage (Conviction): 15k*1.6 (cows have -60% LR) = 24k
- Average Eschuta + RBF damage (no Conviction) (*** see below): 15k - (18/100)*(15k) (cows treated as having 18% LR) = 12.3k
- Average Eschuta + RBF damage (with Conviction): 15k*1.67 (cows treated as having -67% LR) = 25.5k
- Average Hoto damage (no Conviction): 14.5k - (25/100)*(15k) (cows have 25% LR) = 10.9k
- Average Hoto damage (Conviction): 14,5k*1.6 (cows have -60% LR) = 23.2k
(*** I don't have Eschuta's + RBF at the moment so I don't know exact damage increase, but I've assumed in favour of this setup that it's similar to -7% ELR which is probably a tiny bit too high.)
Now if there are any mistakes in the above calculations please do feel free to correct me. If they are correct then indeed CM is a little bit stronger vs monsters not affected by Conviction, but not by much. Eschuta's is a bit stronger vs monsters affected by Conviction, but not by much either. Overall Eschuta's + RBF is stronger than CN on average by 0.6k average damage based on the above. Hoto is slightly behind both in all scenarios.
Holy cow.
Conclusion 1: The difference is so small it can essentially be ignored. Really surprised how close these numbers are.
Conclusion 2: Given the small damage difference, the choice should be based on other advantages. In case of CM, that's +2 mpk. In case of Hoto it's more all resist and extra mana. In case of Eschuta's... well, nothing really putting it over CM or Hoto really?
Conclusion 3: Given the above, I'll probably go back to Hoto.
Easiest to gear around, more resists and mana and the loss in damage is minimal.In general though, Lightning Sorc is really a fun and very good build for this, but of course it will never be even close to stuff like necro or java in terms of overall killing speed.
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Difference between hoto and Eschuta's in my case (+19/-25 Griffon's, +24 -5 Eschuta's). Listed is maximum Lightning damage.
Hoto damage on conviction: 53906
Hoto damage w/o conviction: 25268
Eschuta's damage on conviction: 57684 (~7% stronger damage)
Eschuta's damage w/o conviction: 27968 (~10% stronger damage)
I take every upgrade I can, even if it is not big
I don't think I'm fan of CM setup. Eschuta's offers at least 17.6 yards static which is a bit low for my taste, but it will work ok I guess. I do wonder is it more profitable to go into higher static range and lower L/CL damage, but won't know until I try sorc out first. Probably not a good idea due to huge damage variety of lightning skills. Here I can't really calculate ideal damage scenario like with firesorc where I could deliberately aim for a situation to have 1.5 screen of cows to have low enough HP after 2 static for me to have ~90% chance to 1 shot them with fireball, depending on damage roll and hp roll of cows. Here it seems it is best to go all out on damage to have higher chance to kill cows faster.
Hoto damage on conviction: 53906
Hoto damage w/o conviction: 25268
Eschuta's damage on conviction: 57684 (~7% stronger damage)
Eschuta's damage w/o conviction: 27968 (~10% stronger damage)
I take every upgrade I can, even if it is not big
I don't think I'm fan of CM setup. Eschuta's offers at least 17.6 yards static which is a bit low for my taste, but it will work ok I guess. I do wonder is it more profitable to go into higher static range and lower L/CL damage, but won't know until I try sorc out first. Probably not a good idea due to huge damage variety of lightning skills. Here I can't really calculate ideal damage scenario like with firesorc where I could deliberately aim for a situation to have 1.5 screen of cows to have low enough HP after 2 static for me to have ~90% chance to 1 shot them with fireball, depending on damage roll and hp roll of cows. Here it seems it is best to go all out on damage to have higher chance to kill cows faster.
Yeah that pretty much checks out with my numbers, i.e. Eschuta's + RBF is best under conviction, and Hoto is lowest damage in any scenario. When looking only to optimize damage it basically comes down to CM without conviction vs Eschuta's with conviction, with Eschuta slightly overall winner. Though of course in theory best damage by far is a really good rare or magic orb (+2sorc, +3L/CL, +facets anyone?).. just for the sake of completeness.
But in general I didn't expect the different setups to be so close in damage.
Hit points could mabye be taken into account for different player settings as well. Average cow HP on hell /p1 is 12445.5, on /p5 it's 37336.5 and on /p7 it's 49782. One could also assume 50% in each case after Static Field, being the vast majority of monsters hit with Lightning, which would be 18668.25 on /p5 and 24891 on /p7. I guess then you could compare this to average damage to see where you can one-hit them "on average"... but due to the extreme damage range of Lightning damage I think this "average" is practically irrelevant.
Added PhineasB, welcome !
Received first results already, but didn't check the score. Don't want to crush my dreams. Go figure.
I have done 10 hours now, so plenty of time to left to fill that 5 x Zod.
Received first results already, but didn't check the score. Don't want to crush my dreams. Go figure.
I have done 10 hours now, so plenty of time to left to fill that 5 x Zod.
- Sep 12, 2013
- 4,903
- 1,721
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Four runes on one Cow run! Beware all you 1.13ers!
A couple goodies along the way: (don't look too closely for my qualifiers!!)
A couple goodies along the way: (don't look too closely for my qualifiers!!)
What is this garbage?
From cows
Bladebone
Double Axe
One-Hand Damage: 5 to 13
Durability: 13 of 24
Required Strength: 43
Required Level: 15
Axe Class - Fast Attack Speed
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 90
Fingerprint: 0x510ce3
+20 Defense
Adds 8-12 fire damage
20% Increased Attack Speed
100% Damage to Undead
+40 to Attack Rating against
as well as 2 amazing charms
Prefix 857 Small Charm of Maiming
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 43
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 94
Fingerprint: 0x138f533a
+12 to Maximum Damage
Prefix 978 Small Charm of Sustenance
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 17
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 94
Fingerprint: 0x6480200d
+15 to Life
+14 to Mana
From cows
Bladebone
Double Axe
One-Hand Damage: 5 to 13
Durability: 13 of 24
Required Strength: 43
Required Level: 15
Axe Class - Fast Attack Speed
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 90
Fingerprint: 0x510ce3
+20 Defense
Adds 8-12 fire damage
20% Increased Attack Speed
100% Damage to Undead
+40 to Attack Rating against
as well as 2 amazing charms
Prefix 857 Small Charm of Maiming
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 43
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 94
Fingerprint: 0x138f533a
+12 to Maximum Damage
Prefix 978 Small Charm of Sustenance
Keep in Inventory to Gain Bonus
Required Level: 17
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 94
Fingerprint: 0x6480200d
+15 to Life
+14 to Mana
- Sep 12, 2013
- 4,903
- 1,721
- 113
Finally done with this. 20h never felt so long before. But actually I only got furious with the cows for the last 5 hours or so, would have expected to go insane with 15h left the latest.
Play time with different builds:
~ 12h Java
~ 5h Necro (mainly PN/CE hybrid)
~ 2h Sorc (Lightning)
~ 1h Druid, Pala, Blizzard and Fire Sorc, Riftsin
I couldn't test Trapper because.. well the typical reason. Regarding efficiency of the builds I tested, nothing was even close to necro and java really.
Notable drops:
But actually I only got furious with the cows for the last 5 hours or so, would have expected to go insane with 15h left the latest. Play time with different builds:
~ 12h Java
~ 5h Necro (mainly PN/CE hybrid)
~ 2h Sorc (Lightning)
~ 1h Druid, Pala, Blizzard and Fire Sorc, Riftsin
I couldn't test Trapper because.. well the typical reason. Regarding efficiency of the builds I tested, nothing was even close to necro and java really.
Notable drops:
S&U:
Perfect Homunculus (that's nice I guess..)
Mara's 24@ (third one, never higher than 25...)
Nightwing's Veil 9% (second one, with luck even worse than with Mara's: Previous one had 8%... oh my)
Charms:
5fhr/2 max/18 AR sc
20 life/26 AR sc
14 life/11 cold resist sc
1 max/14ar/5mf sc
3frw/9 poison res sc
13 life/5 poison res sc
skiller cold/7frw <-- was very happy about that since it's the magical number 8, frw is nice too
skiller shapeshifting/25 life <-- meh
skiller masteries/7frw <-- meh
Jewels:
4min dmg/21% ed/12 AR/27% demon ed/34 demon AR <-- not bad
15ias/32% ed <-- not bad either
40% ed/5 dex
40% ed
Plus of course loads of nice runeword bases, even though there was nothing I was looking for specifically.
Overall fine with the loot, didn't expect great drops from cows.
Perfect Homunculus (that's nice I guess..)
Mara's 24@ (third one, never higher than 25...)
Nightwing's Veil 9% (second one, with luck even worse than with Mara's: Previous one had 8%... oh my)
Charms:
5fhr/2 max/18 AR sc
20 life/26 AR sc
14 life/11 cold resist sc
1 max/14ar/5mf sc
3frw/9 poison res sc
13 life/5 poison res sc
skiller cold/7frw <-- was very happy about that since it's the magical number 8, frw is nice too
skiller shapeshifting/25 life <-- meh
skiller masteries/7frw <-- meh
Jewels:
4min dmg/21% ed/12 AR/27% demon ed/34 demon AR <-- not bad
15ias/32% ed <-- not bad either
40% ed/5 dex
40% ed
Plus of course loads of nice runeword bases, even though there was nothing I was looking for specifically.
Overall fine with the loot, didn't expect great drops from cows.
I'm actually the only one who found cows to be more interesting than other targets played so far. OP.
I probably would have enjoyed cows if I hadn't kill the King with all of my viable characters. My last clocked p1 run was nearly 15 minutes.
But Superchests/poppables will always be my main addiction I fear. I'm actually curious to optimize my 3 chest runner after this to see how fast I can go.
But Superchests/poppables will always be my main addiction I fear. I'm actually curious to optimize my 3 chest runner after this to see how fast I can go.
Fine, did more testing on characters. Trapper, firesorc and hammer were tested on 10 runs while rest were 20 runs sample. I took into consideration some builds kill more minions than the others, so I removed this portion of cows from a total got from xp gain:
-100 for fireball, javazon and hammerdin
-110 for nec, blizzardsorc and fissure druid
Results are by no means precise due to these estimates, but it gives us pretty good idea where certain builds could stand compared to each other in p5 cows killed per minute. Though, javazon was tested on p7 since she is the only character where it is more profitable to go for p7 instead according to 20 runs tests I did for both p5 and p7 (her result is also expressed in p5 cows killed per minute, calculated from her p7 cows per minute). In bracket is average run time with average xp gained.
1. PN/Nova necro ~168 (2:24, p5lvl95 41660)
2. Blizzard sorc ~144 (2:47, p5lvl96 29974)
3. Javazon ~142 (2:46, p7lvl95 47941)
4. Trapper ~137 (2:48, p5lvl95 39755)
5. Fireball sorc ~130 (2:45, p5lvl96 26994)
6. Fissure druid ~126 (3:06, p5lvl95 40579)
7. Hammerdin ~97 (3:24, p5lvl96 25313)
As for javazon, tested was p5 vs p7 with result that p7 is slightly stronger due to her herding nature and fury damage nature. Also, tested was 55 ias vs 35 ias with not even a slight difference in between them. This is the third area I tested 55 ias vs 35 ias with no confirmation that 55 ias is any better at all. Everything is identical to a number.
How to interpret the results? Like this, tiers of builds like I already posted before:
Nec
Blizzard, Javazon, Trapper
Fireball, Fissure
Hammerdin
Javazon has higher potential than both trapper and blizzard sorc for a simple fact that she could nail cows around king too while trapper and blizzard cannot. They need really great map where king is isolated (like on my nec map) to reach their full potential, otherwise they would be strictly worse than javazon. With a strong map, however, they seem to be similarlishy strong, but I'd prefer blizzard over javazon or trapper in that case due to her very simple playing nature. Also, someone else could prove that javazon is actually better than what my tests suggest, it seems I can't really find improvement for her since by now I've done enough tests and didn't see any improvement at all.
Need to test yet: lightning sorc, give another shot to a trapper
-100 for fireball, javazon and hammerdin
-110 for nec, blizzardsorc and fissure druid
Results are by no means precise due to these estimates, but it gives us pretty good idea where certain builds could stand compared to each other in p5 cows killed per minute. Though, javazon was tested on p7 since she is the only character where it is more profitable to go for p7 instead according to 20 runs tests I did for both p5 and p7 (her result is also expressed in p5 cows killed per minute, calculated from her p7 cows per minute). In bracket is average run time with average xp gained.
1. PN/Nova necro ~168 (2:24, p5lvl95 41660)
2. Blizzard sorc ~144 (2:47, p5lvl96 29974)
3. Javazon ~142 (2:46, p7lvl95 47941)
4. Trapper ~137 (2:48, p5lvl95 39755)
5. Fireball sorc ~130 (2:45, p5lvl96 26994)
6. Fissure druid ~126 (3:06, p5lvl95 40579)
7. Hammerdin ~97 (3:24, p5lvl96 25313)
As for javazon, tested was p5 vs p7 with result that p7 is slightly stronger due to her herding nature and fury damage nature. Also, tested was 55 ias vs 35 ias with not even a slight difference in between them. This is the third area I tested 55 ias vs 35 ias with no confirmation that 55 ias is any better at all. Everything is identical to a number.
How to interpret the results? Like this, tiers of builds like I already posted before:
Nec
Blizzard, Javazon, Trapper
Fireball, Fissure
Hammerdin
Javazon has higher potential than both trapper and blizzard sorc for a simple fact that she could nail cows around king too while trapper and blizzard cannot. They need really great map where king is isolated (like on my nec map) to reach their full potential, otherwise they would be strictly worse than javazon. With a strong map, however, they seem to be similarlishy strong, but I'd prefer blizzard over javazon or trapper in that case due to her very simple playing nature. Also, someone else could prove that javazon is actually better than what my tests suggest, it seems I can't really find improvement for her since by now I've done enough tests and didn't see any improvement at all.
Need to test yet: lightning sorc, give another shot to a trapper
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@Gripphon
Alright I got the message. I'm leveling my "didn't kill cow king" javazon to 94 right now and see how far I can push her once I got her there. I rolled a very nice cow map for her in the meantime and made a couple of further improvements since last vid. Not sure whether she can actually beat CE, but I would be extremely surprised if she couldn't beat everything else to be honest. I'm almost certain that when herding properly and abusing the hell out of the LF/100% pierce combination, CE is the only skill in the game that can match it in terms of clear speed. But I won't theorize too much at this point and do some proper tests once I hit lvl 94.
Alright I got the message.
I'm leveling my "didn't kill cow king" javazon to 94 right now and see how far I can push her once I got her there. I rolled a very nice cow map for her in the meantime and made a couple of further improvements since last vid. Not sure whether she can actually beat CE, but I would be extremely surprised if she couldn't beat everything else to be honest. I'm almost certain that when herding properly and abusing the hell out of the LF/100% pierce combination, CE is the only skill in the game that can match it in terms of clear speed. But I won't theorize too much at this point and do some proper tests once I hit lvl 94. @ffs
I agree with theory you presented. You should definitely test her. Biggest challenge will be to determine how many cows should you deduct from a total due to extra xp from minions. I deducted only 100 since my javazon didn't touch king and his minions on a map I tested. I am curious what number of cows would you conclude you should deduct from a total.
I used 3 javelins to have enough for running, they just went out too fast. But, test was also kinda unfair. I have hell a lot experience playing blizzard sorc and poison necro, but never liked to play javazon, so it is quite possible I did better performance with other builds than with javazon. I do feel competent to push sorcs or necros to the top, but not javazon. Not outside Baal at least. Even in Pit I'm not confident I did the best I could with her.
I agree with theory you presented. You should definitely test her. Biggest challenge will be to determine how many cows should you deduct from a total due to extra xp from minions. I deducted only 100 since my javazon didn't touch king and his minions on a map I tested. I am curious what number of cows would you conclude you should deduct from a total.
I used 3 javelins to have enough for running, they just went out too fast.
But, test was also kinda unfair. I have hell a lot experience playing blizzard sorc and poison necro, but never liked to play javazon, so it is quite possible I did better performance with other builds than with javazon. I do feel competent to push sorcs or necros to the top, but not javazon. Not outside Baal at least. Even in Pit I'm not confident I did the best I could with her.
T72on1
New member
- Feb 12, 2016
- 5,103
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After finding yet another ...
View attachment 5041
... I decided to bite the bullet, cube up 4 Ohms, combine the result with the Sur I got from Council quite some time ago and make ...
View attachment 5042
I know the general advice is to not cube Lo runes to Sur, because Sur is so common in LK, but after not getting a Sur in 3000 LK runs, nor in RFL round 1, round 2 and 10 hours of round 3 (minor spoiler there, sorry about that, but you all know Sur isn't in my top 5 to begin with), I just had enough of it and went ahead to put that Jah I found in CS so many months ago to good use. I still have 2 Ohm runes left, with the ability to have some 8 more if I cube up from Pul, so ...
The reason I'm posting this here and not in the IFT should be obvious. After calling quits on Cows a week ago or so, this armor inspires me to get back in, this time with my Javazon. Unfortunately I won't have much time except for Thursday afternoon, but it's better than nothing I guess.
Edit: did some test runs, ugh that went bad. Amazon is so different to play with teleport, because she has such an incredibly slow cast rate. Kept on having NDE's due to teleporting into packs early on. After that things went better, but got 5 minute run times.
Pff, not sure what I'll do. Probably try to improve running with my Javazon, but I don't see myself doing this a lot. Definitely disappointed for now.
View attachment 5041
... I decided to bite the bullet, cube up 4 Ohms, combine the result with the Sur I got from Council quite some time ago and make ...
View attachment 5042
I know the general advice is to not cube Lo runes to Sur, because Sur is so common in LK, but after not getting a Sur in 3000 LK runs, nor in RFL round 1, round 2 and 10 hours of round 3 (minor spoiler there, sorry about that, but you all know Sur isn't in my top 5 to begin with
), I just had enough of it and went ahead to put that Jah I found in CS so many months ago to good use. I still have 2 Ohm runes left, with the ability to have some 8 more if I cube up from Pul, so ...The reason I'm posting this here and not in the IFT should be obvious. After calling quits on Cows a week ago or so, this armor inspires me to get back in, this time with my Javazon. Unfortunately I won't have much time except for Thursday afternoon, but it's better than nothing I guess.
Edit: did some test runs, ugh that went bad. Amazon is so different to play with teleport, because she has such an incredibly slow cast rate. Kept on having NDE's due to teleporting into packs early on. After that things went better, but got 5 minute run times
.Pff, not sure what I'll do. Probably try to improve running with my Javazon, but I don't see myself doing this a lot. Definitely disappointed for now.
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