Nihilism & Nationalism

[jmervyn]

So Elly's post about the riots in the U.S. & the spam associated with it got me thinking. Everyone here other than myself apparently applaud the rioting & looting going on, even if they equivocate as to the degree to which they do so.

By way of background, I ran across this monologue from Tucker Carlson & figured it is worth further discussion along that vein. I'm not always a fan of Carlson; I find him somewhat inconsistent on his views & tend to consider him an opportunist more than anything else. However, he's willing to cast blame on both sides, so I thought it's worth listening to this:

Transcript here - Tucker Carlson: This Is How Nations Collapse

So one portion of what Carlson said resonated with what I thought about reading the other thread -

In fact, what we’re watching is not a political protest. It’s the opposite of a political protest. It is an attack on the idea of politics. The rioters you have seen are trying to topple our political system.

That system is how we resolve our differences without using violence. But these people want a new system, one that is governed by force. Do what we say or we will hurt you.

Carlson easily summarizes why I carelessly call Progressives "fascist" though I obviously believe that the Republican fasicsts are FAR less numerous, powerful, & dangerous than the Democrat fascists. American society is steadily marching away from the concept of limited Government and individual freedom, and is being manipulated towards collectivist Socialism by those who admire Premiere "Pooh" Xi and the ease with which he can incarcerate people in order to harvest their internal organs for sale.

Not so long ago they admired Hugo Chavez, but once professional women had to turn to prostitution & selling their hair for food, their approval vanished from Google searches. By design, as Winston from 1984 would testify.

The obvious fact to me, as someone who has spent most of his life supporting Western civilization against Socialist collectivism, is that it's worth saving. That's no longer a shared belief by most here, obviously, but I always wonder exactly what those condemning me believe will be the solution? Condemnation of America & American government is a fun game that Europeans delight in playing (and obviously is one anyone can play) because it helps stroke the ego in a manner similar to watching reality TV and sneering in hatred at those who just obviously aren't as enlightened or intelligent as the viewer.

A good joke about Socialists of this ilk which I've repeated on occasion is, "Just one more regulation and we'll achieve Utopia!" Really, though, it seems like that's truly the belief of many younger people, including the majority of OTF members. When condemning police overreach, what is your intended remedy? When subsequently demanding that the citizenry lose the right to defend themselves, why is giving ultimate power considered not totally contradictory to the previous objective?

Demanding that the Bad Orange Man be removed from power, dead or alive with a preference for the former, then how is the disgust for President Pantcrease Light-Worker by political opposition somehow beyond the pale, and any condemnation of his multitude of illegal & corrupt actions immediately deemed RACCISSSSSS!!!! and worth eliminating with extreme prejudice?

Is the casual acceptance that "Might Makes Right" as being valid for those on 'your' side (whichever side that happens to be at this point in your life) really so pervasive? T.H. White must be rolling in his grave! I cited the Gandalf speech about being reluctant to hand out judgement but... wow!

Most people here are probably of European origin, and insist that we American brutes ought to be civilized by force, including allowing you to determine who should be elected President of the U.S. Ok, so how would you deal with what's happening here, now?

Moreover, would you support such measures in your own country? Do you? Given what I saw in the past, it seems like the European tendency is to ignore the problem (i.e. Islamist youths rioting in France, or grooming gangs abducting children in Britain, Sweden becoming the sexual assault capital of the world) until doing so is no longer feasible.

Would Europe be willing to launch a D-Day invasion of the U.S. to save the world from Socialism? Don't make me laugh. But really, what IS the regulation that will achieve Utopia? I think we'd like to know.

 

[superdave]

So Elly's post about the riots in the U.S. & the spam associated with it got me thinking. Everyone here other than myself apparently applaud the rioting & looting going on, even if they equivocate as to the degree to which they do so.

Spam apparently means anything posted that does not jive with Merv's political beliefs and not one person in that thread applauded rioters and looters.

 

[jmervyn]

Huh, I would have thought at least someone would opine.

 

[superdave]

greenshirtguy.gif

 

[jmervyn]

Well, Happy American Independence Day to those who think Western Civilization is a good thing!

 

[jmervyn]

Since I'm talking to myself here, and the rest of you seemingly *want* the collapse of civilization, I figured it was worth citing an excellent series of "Tweets" from Titania McGrath (who I used to 'follow' once Godfrey Elfwick was banned).

Perhaps it will serve as an archeological record for the alien crypto-archeologists who eventually try to figure out why the Hell we let Left-wing lunatics destroy their own culture & the West. The "Twitchy" article was so cited that they put it behind a paywall, so I'll use this one instead.

Apparently all these things and more are now racist indications of white supremacy (I'm not going to bother re-citing the hyperlinks, but many are in the original above):

butter
cereal mascots
master bedrooms
the Masters golf tournament
Abraham Lincoln
lawns
Lord of the Rings
vaccines
Martin Luther King
skin care
Nelson Mandela
Conservative MP Rishi Sunak (?)
The Order of St. Michael & St. George
milk
applause
The Simpsons cartoons
rice
trying not to be racist
soap
toothpaste
Jesus
chess
Ghandi
Western philosophy
nurses
freeways
peanut butter & jelly sandwiches
math
hiking
climate change
Band-aids
biological sex
knitting
cycling
abolition of slavery
suffragette movement
traffic lights
COVID-19
earthquakes
classical music
libraries
dogs
tipping
Veganism
tire skid marks
Charles Dickens
the White Cliffs of Dover
Rock music
Thomas the Tank Engine
robots
environmental activism

I believe it's an ongoing effort, so the list will doubtless continue to grow. The Smithsonian recently decided to take down their poster supporting Mx. McGrath's claims - I can't imagine why - but still endorse the claims. I managed to grab a copy of the poster and will try to make sure I provide it for your enlightenment here. The Smithsonian included individualism/self-reliance/planning for the future, objectivity, hard work, monotheism, the scientific method, progress, the nuclear family, respect for authority, & delayed gratification.

P.S. If it's not already clear just how much I detest people of this bent, some of you Europeans may be ignorant of why my spite & disgust is so extreme. It's not just my standard "Reds under the bed" or "Joe McCarthy was right, you know" (both of which have been proven true). It's that as the Wall Street Journal recently explained, there weren't enough white supremacists to fill their tour bus in Washington D.C. on their own "Pride Day".

An alternate comment which I've enjoyed quoting is that the demand for white racism far exceeds the supply in America, which is why the Democrats have taken to mass-production of counterfeit white racism.

It's all a con job - a sham -- an open lie - and those perpetrating it actually do desire the destruction of America.

 

[superdave]

You forgot football.

 

[entwilighter]

What you fail to see, understand or acknowledge is that racism and white supremacy are systemic and manifest in almost all interactions that POC have with other people, the state, businesses etc.

 

[jmervyn]

What you fail to see, understand or acknowledge is that racism and white supremacy are systemic and manifest in almost all interactions that POC have with other people, the state, businesses etc.

{EDIT - as some here know, I can make blanket statements with the best of them. That's what you've done above, without any explanation or detail}

Spare me - I've been through the training already.

1. Are you asserting that American racism by whites against blacks or Hispanics is greater or has greater effects than that of blacks or Hispanics against whites? Show your work.
2. Are you asserting that "white supremacy" is greater & more pervasive In America than that in other countries, particularly Europe? Is this true in a historical sense, or a contemporary sense? Show your work.
3. Are you asserting that "the system" (AKA "The MAN") is responsible for this, despite American society being largely dominated by Progressive influences for over 100 years? Show your work.
4. Are you asserting that "white supremacy" actually causes damage to society? This would imply that American society is irrevocably racist & malevolent - and therefore not worth preserving, as postulated by the New York Times 1619 Project. Do you believe this to be true? Show your work.
5. If, as I assume, you believe all of the above to be undeniably true, then what are you suggesting take society's place? Show your work.

Answer these thoughtfully & in turn I'll respond thoughtfully to what you claim I fail to see, understand, or acknowledge.

 

[D2DC]

Are you asserting that American racism by whites against blacks or Hispanics is greater or has greater effects than that of blacks or Hispanics against whites? Show your work.

If this is still up for debate, then our education and journalism systems have truely failed us. Oh wait..

Spoiler

 

[entwilighter]

{EDIT - as some here know, I can make blanket statements with the best of them. That's what you've done above, without any explanation or detail}

Spare me - I've been through the training already.

1. Are you asserting that American racism by whites against blacks or Hispanics is greater or has greater effects than that of blacks or Hispanics against whites? Show your work.
2. Are you asserting that "white supremacy" is greater & more pervasive In America than that in other countries, particularly Europe? Is this true in a historical sense, or a contemporary sense? Show your work.
3. Are you asserting that "the system" (AKA "The MAN") is responsible for this, despite American society being largely dominated by Progressive influences for over 100 years? Show your work.
4. Are you asserting that "white supremacy" actually causes damage to society? This would imply that American society is irrevocably racist & malevolent - and therefore not worth preserving, as postulated by the New York Times 1619 Project. Do you believe this to be true? Show your work.
5. If, as I assume, you believe all of the above to be undeniably true, then what are you suggesting take society's place? Show your work.

Answer these thoughtfully & in turn I'll respond thoughtfully to what you claim I fail to see, understand, or acknowledge.

Ok, you're putting words in my mouth here and I don't really appreciate that, but I will respond to your questions as you asked.

1. Yes. Firstly, it's obvious that POC have been subjected to race-based systems of oppression and individually targeted by racist violence both historically (think: American slavery, the British Empire killing and exploiting POC around the world, Aryanism in Nazi Germany, the Stolen Generations in Australia, etc.) as well as currently (think: Ahmaud Arbery's lynching, racist police violence in the US (evidence all over the net of this), Australian government's fraudulent NT intervention, etc.). I have just scratched the surface with these examples, but please, find me an example of whites EVER having been subjected to anything comparable to these atrocities based on their whiteness?

2. No. White supremacy is pervasive throughout most of the world, but especially so in the west. Australia is a good example outside of the US of a country where white supremacy is pervasive.

3. Yes and no. White supremacy has been around for hundreds of years, and many of the systems it has informed are well established and difficult to change - this includes systems of governance, laws and political systems, but also ideological, personal and social systems. Governments (conservative and "liberal" alike, and all over the world) use racism to appeal to and bolster the support of particular demographics of voters. I shouldn't need to find you evidence for this because it's everywhere, but a good example and the first time I saw this in action was the "Children Overboard" scandal in Australia. There are plenty of other reasons why white supremacy continues to be upheld, but I feel that answers your question at least.

I also think it's important to point out that so-called "progressive influences" are not immune to racist and white supremacist thinking. "The Left" are not free of racist and white supremacist thinking. The "progressive influences" of 20th century US that you're referring to are the same.

4. Yes. White supremacy is damaging to society. White supremacy kills and oppresses black people - black people are a part of society - therefore white supremacy damages society. I think you shot yourself in the foot here, honestly. And no, this fact doesn't imply that American society is "irrevocably racist & malevolent - and therefore not worth preserving", but your inference of that implies an acknowledgement on your part that American society is by and large, white supremacist - pretty funny!

5. Again, this question is predicated on the false notion of "society" being a white thing. Being anti-racist doesn't mean I aim for the destruction of society. I would like to think that a society free from violence and oppression might replace our current situation, but sometimes it feels like a pipe dream.

 

[jmervyn]

If this is still up for debate, then our education and journalism systems have truely failed us. Oh wait..

Admittedly, I ought to have included the caveat "present day" in question #1 for clarity to both yourself & entwilighter. So that's one for your side. However, you misspelled 'truly'.

As for the Trump quote, he's obviously referring to reverse racism. Given that there are at least a couple of white Democrat notables who masquerade as minorities, are you saying the claim is false? I'm not interested in trying to evaluate degrees, nor in defending Trump, but I can easily see how he would make such a statement.

Ok, you're putting words in my mouth here and I don't really appreciate that, but I will respond to your questions as you asked.

I didn't put anything in your mouth. You'd know if I had. As for the questions, I asked whether you asserted these things or not.

1. Yes. Firstly, it's obvious that POC have been subjected to race-based systems of oppression and individually targeted by racist violence both historically (think: American slavery, the British Empire killing and exploiting POC around the world, Aryanism in Nazi Germany, the Stolen Generations in Australia, etc.) as well as currently (think: Ahmaud Arbery's lynching, racist police violence in the US (evidence all over the net of this), Australian government's fraudulent NT intervention, etc.).

As I stated above, I ought to have specified "present day". However, you're dancing around the question, whether modern white racism is greater in effect or degree than modern black or Hispanic racism.

I have just scratched the surface with these examples, but please, find me an example of whites EVER having been subjected to anything comparable to these atrocities based on their whiteness?

Once we open the floodgates of history, then white Europeans enslaved by the Barbary pirates dwarfs that of black slavery in the United States.

I won't get into Scots-Irish enslaved because there's too much bad-faith revisionism being conducted by those trying to make American slavery ought too be a unique, unmatched equal. Suffice it to say that I find those claims about the Irish never having been enslaved to be asinine, given my personal experience in the Honduran Bay Islands.

2. No. White supremacy is pervasive throughout most of the world, but especially so in the west. Australia is a good example outside of the US of a country where white supremacy is pervasive.

Good. At least I can write off anti-American sentiment as being part of the discussion with you. I can't do so with the rioters.

3. Yes and no. White supremacy has been around for hundreds of years, and many of the systems it has informed are well established and difficult to change - this includes systems of governance, laws and political systems, but also ideological, personal and social systems. Governments (conservative and "liberal" alike, and all over the world) use racism to appeal to and bolster the support of particular demographics of voters. I shouldn't need to find you evidence for this because it's everywhere, but a good example and the first time I saw this in action was the "Children Overboard" scandal in Australia. There are plenty of other reasons why white supremacy continues to be upheld, but I feel that answers your question at least.

I suspect this comes close to the reason John Wayne is being cancelled currently; he once said something inelegant which is now being screamed at:

With a lot of blacks, there’s quite a bit of resentment along with their dissent, and possibly rightfully so. But we can’t all of a sudden get down on our knees and turn everything over to the leadership of the blacks. I believe in white supremacy until the blacks are educated to a point of responsibility. I don’t believe in giving authority and positions of leadership and judgment to irresponsible people.

Is not trusting irrational, uneducated people with power white supremacy? Is being unwilling to throw out hundreds of years of settled law or social convention racist? Most of all, is demanding the complete over-turn somehow going to make things "better"? There's tens of thousands of examples to the contrary, and the only positive example I can think of is that of the Revolution which gave birth to the United States.

4. Yes. White supremacy is damaging to society. White supremacy kills and oppresses black people - black people are a part of society - therefore white supremacy damages society. I think you shot yourself in the foot here, honestly. And no, this fact doesn't imply that American society is "irrevocably racist & malevolent - and therefore not worth preserving", but your inference of that implies an acknowledgement on your part that American society is by and large, white supremacist - pretty funny!

I would agree that white supremacy would be bad, assuming that it had any power whatsoever. As I mentioned previously, the Wall Street Journal pointed out that there aren't enough white supremacists to fill a bus in Washington D.C. on their own "Pride Day".

As for *American* white supremacy killing and oppressing people in the modern era, I'd like to hear more. Does being a minority constitute deserving a 'get out of jail free' card? Because the rioters, when they actually manage to coherently make assertions, definitely assert that America is irrevocably racist & malevolent and deserving of destruction, probably using the New York Times' 1619 Project to inform their views.

5. Again, this question is predicated on the false notion of "society" being a white thing. Being anti-racist doesn't mean I aim for the destruction of society. I would like to think that a society free from violence and oppression might replace our current situation, but sometimes it feels like a pipe dream.

To narrow this down, I am not making a statement about society 'being a white thing'. However, it seems to me that you're pre-supposing those who disagree with the rioters are racist.

A bit of background - and fair warning - I once debated a similar issue on the old Dii OTF with 'Dondrei', and admittedly I mousetrapped him: I got him to make a number of over-the-top statements before revealing that technically I am black. I also had Republican ancestors who fought for the Union against the slavery-adoring Democrats during the American Civil War... a conflict notably missing from current discussions in the American media.

So when you say that I "fail to see, understand or acknowledge is that racism and white supremacy are systemic and manifest in almost all interactions that POC have with other people, the state, businesses etc. " you may be able to understand how amusing I find your statement. However, what I'd be willing to grant is your concept that racism is manifest in almost all social interactions. Are you certain that you're not confusing simple instinct of preference for the familiar, which has been tested to death, with actual racism, which is learned? Because instinctual preference for "one's own kind" isn't racism, yet is labeled thus in modern times.

Just for good measure, here's dictionary definitions - #1 & #2 are solid, but #3 is deeply flawed; is black genetic predilection for sickle-cell anemia "racist"?
1) The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2) Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
3) The belief that each race has distinct and intrinsic attributes.

 

[Leopold Stotch]

Just gonna spam here. I didn't read all of this, I'll probably do so later. I'm tired.

My Hispanic-Jewish cousin is a neck beard nationalist (literally has a huge-ass beard that covers his throat). And, if this is still true, he no longer claims "his brown side. What has brown done for me?" And that makes me really sad. I love him but man we've had some heated talks. And idk how he got this way. I blame the rural countryside that we grew up in. Lol.

I have the TINIEST sliver of hope for America. We can be better than this. And while changing racist mascots/spokespeople (Redskins, Aunt Jemima, etc) is a step, there needs to be more genuine action and talks (acknowledging our past, giving an apology to blacks and Native Americans, prison reform, so much more).

And, lastly, we're all gonna die one day. Can we just be nicer to each other????? (Not saying we're being assholes to each other in this thread; I'm talking in general and outside this thread)

 

[superdave]

Can we just be nicer to each other?????

That never happens in political threads.

 

[jmervyn]

I have the TINIEST sliver of hope for America. We can be better than this. And while changing racist mascots/spokespeople (Redskins, Aunt Jemima, etc) is a step, there needs to be more genuine action and talks (acknowledging our past, giving an apology to blacks and Native Americans, prison reform, so much more).

500,000 thousand Republicans died fighting to free the slave-owning Democrats, Leo, including ancestors of mine. It doesn't get much more genuine than that.

How is elimination of a "Racist" mascot (which, in the case of Aunt Jemima, was proud & beloved by both her descendants and those who portrayed her) in any way relevant to the Maoists in Seattle & Portland?

They want America destroyed, not vaguely improved through virtue signaling on social media.

 

[Leopold Stotch]

Sure, some people (including our own fellow Americans) want to watch America burn. But I think the majority of us want and need change. How many more innocent people (white and black) need to die by police before we get that change?

I get the reason why SWAT teams need tactical and military gear, but fucking beat cops? And people are getting pissed about the idea of refunding police where's the outrage about education and health care getting defunded lulz? Like... /Insert What gif

And Merv, I'm pretty sure you've mentioned or at least talked about the defunding of health care and education in the past (I can't recall) so I'm not really talking about you right now. I'm talking in general.

And, you know, I'll fucking admit I'm not the most politically outspoken person or even that knowledgeable about a lot of things. But people interpreting "defunding the police" as "No police ever" are FUCKING. STUPID. and that's not what that means lol!

 

[superdave]

First it was fascists and now it's maoists. What will Merv's next boogeyman be? Vegans?

 

[Leopold Stotch]

First it was fascists and now it's maoists. What will Merv's next boogeyman be? Vegans?

Oh if it's vegans, we'll be on the same page there. XD

JK.

 

[jmervyn]

Sure, some people (including our own fellow Americans) want to watch America burn. But I think the majority of us want and need change. How many more innocent people (white and black) need to die by police before we get that change?

I get the reason why SWAT teams need tactical and military gear, but fucking beat cops? And people are getting pissed about the idea of refunding police where's the outrage about education and health care getting defunded lulz? Like... /Insert What gif

And Merv, I'm pretty sure you've mentioned or at least talked about the defunding of health care and education in the past (I can't recall) so I'm not really talking about you right now. I'm talking in general.

Define innocent.

Take Tamir Rice, for example. The implicit demand by the BLM Maoists is that they deserve money because the police brutally killed a 12-year old boy, and that white supremacy is the cause. How much bullcrap can be stuffed into one issue? Do BLM types honestly assert that white cops generally love to gun down black 12-year-olds? Sadly, I think that some of the truly unhinged do; the same crowd claiming that the Border Patrol is running death camps on the Mexican border.

I find that anyone making such suggestions is laughably stupid at best. I find it far more likely that they view a free America as the source of all the EBIL in the world, and it must be fundamentally transformed - and by fundamentally transformed, they mean all the wealth & power given into their undeserving, hateful hands. Over my dead body.

What they don't believe in asking is, in what decent nation is a 12-year-old boy being allowed by his parents to mug passer-by using a toy gun? But BLM doesn't want that question asked. Bill Cosby was crucified for being "uppity", while his pimp Hugh Hefner is still lionized & adored by the Proggy Left.

At the risk of going too far into the other thread's material, what I hope *could* be agreed upon is that America is an over-policed, over-governed nation; yet those making demands are on the side of totalitarianism and fascism! The only thing they're upset about is that it's not *their* boot on the neck of the citizenry; it's Trump's!

... and not much of a boot, aside from a lot of grandiose claims like buying Greenland or getting his face on Mt. Rushmore. He's not willingly slaughtered his subordinates to win an election, deliberately intimidated the media by spying on them or their families, and he's definitely not conducted political destabilization of his opponent to a degree that makes Nixon look like an infant.

And, you know, I'll fucking admit I'm not the most politically outspoken person or even that knowledgeable about a lot of things. But people interpreting "defunding the police" as "No police ever" are FUCKING. STUPID. and that's not what that means lol!

Sadly, "defunding the police" means exactly that. The Maoists and their chickenshyt political backers want fewer cops and claim that social workers can do the job better. Let's see how that turns out, shall we? The only viable alternative I've heard (and many people I saw weren't willing to accept even that) were unarmed Alaskan tribal police responsible for cleaning up the blood & writing the reports.

The tribal police aren't armed because everyone else is! To the teeth, as it happens. Is that a rational alternative for Proggy fascists? I highly doubt it.

 

[jmervyn]

Report: Forty percent of Americans have a favorable view on socialism​