Nihilism & Nationalism

[superdave]

American farmers and Corporate America know exactly what socialism is. They just call it capitalism.

 

[jmervyn]

Surprise, I read that article! Edit: Whoops, I didn't notice that yur posting is rather old already!

Yes, I tend not to reply unless I notice someone posted; I don't quite get how there were several responses on this thread that I missed.

What is that socialism thing in this context? Confiscation of all property, like in the USSR? Or just more control by the state? Or more welfare and social insurances? Whatever, what's helpful to reduce that percentage? Certainly not the hilarious stuff you were posting recently. That will probably make more people turn into what you call socialistic. Before you ask: No , I won't elaborate, it's fine for me to leave your statements as they are.

Part of the problem in the U.S. is a failure to understand the context you posit.

Both the Maoist and fascist contingent tell their retarded constituents that it means health care as seen in Sweden, but policies they want to enact range from absolute control of commercial endeavors to confiscation of all property.

Health care is at best relegated to the level of Veteran's Administration hospitals: marginally better than those of the Cuban populace but worse than those of the British NHS. Worse because at least with the NHS they want to kill the patient via neglect (holding them in an ambulance & not admitting them) rather than intent (making the patient "disappear").

Needless to say, promoters of both groups are quite hypocritical in nature, urging confiscation of "your" capital and preservation of their own, via a magical Federal Government. Only morons of the most abject nature believe the promises of American politicians - and the Democrats love big promises.

I also find it embarrassing how many people are extremely proud to be American. As I said before, being proud of the society or nation into which you were born into without any efforts of your own is of limited value. Being American comes for free, doesn't it?

It's certainly OK to agree to support and praise the achievements of your country or your countrymen. I'm doing that all the time with Beethoven and sometimes with respect to the German state, society and system (not always and unconditionally, but at least half of the time). Also, if you took part significantly in making your country great, then it's OK to be proud of these achivements, but without any achievements of your own it's just arrogance and vanity or even ignorance. I seriously doubt that those 42% extremely proud people did enough themselves in that regard to make it a pride that others would acknowledge. Certain elites probably like these proud people because they can be deluded into doing silly things, so they can keep on not noticing that they are mixing up of the greatness of their country with their own greatness.

Being American comes for free? Dude, my taxes are higher than yours, with far worse health care.

As for your sneer about American nationalism, if I pointed out that Germans are cowardly mass-murdering psychopaths responsible for the majority of deaths in Western Europe over the 20th Century and demanded that you grovel & suck off any & all comers who point this out, what would your reaction be?

Would you grovel? Or would you defend Germany?

Now, what would your reaction be if those insults I hurled had NO basis in fact? Because these seditious traitors I'm always railing about were funded by the good old USSR as insurgents, much like your Red Army Faction, and were intended to weaken & undermine NATO and the U.S. for purposes of Communist conquest.

Would you instead point out the blessings Germany has brought to the world (as you mention above)? How Germany has advanced the human condition more than it has damaged it?

Because America is responsible for the overwhelming majority of mankind's achievements in the modern era. Besides which, the plain fact is that if America had not taken the mantle of Western Civilization from the tottering British Empire, we'd be facing a world teeming with barbarism and corruption of an even greater magnitude than currently exists.

I say this recalling openly criminal German & French behavior regarding arming Saddam's Iraq with weapons of mass destruction while denouncing the American sanctions of same. But that's right, you don't like reading evidentiary links that undermine your biases. Yes, I'm kidding, but only marginally so.

You can deny the USSR's sponsorship of anti-Western "democrats" all you like, but the Venona cables made it a matter of historical record. "It" meaning the USSR's support of Democrat Socialists, that is, not that Germans are cowardly murderous scum (gotta make sure I'm not misunderstood when indulging in hyperbolic phraseology ).

 

[krischan]

Being American comes for free? Dude, my taxes are higher than yours, with far worse health care.

I see your point, but being American and paying taxes are two separate things. You can be a US citizen without paying taxes, e.g. when living elsewhere. Likewise, non-Americans have to pay taxes as well if they have a job in the US.

As for your sneer about American nationalism, if I pointed out that Germans are cowardly mass-murdering psychopaths responsible for the majority of deaths in Western Europe over the 20th Century and demanded that you grovel & suck off any & all comers who point this out, what would your reaction be?

Would you grovel? Or would you defend Germany?

I would not defend the terrible deeds by the nazis and I agree that a lot of Germans participated and while they did that, enough of the others looked the other way. That includes those ancestors of mine which I knew personally.

Now, what would your reaction be if those insults I hurled had NO basis in fact? Because these seditious traitors I'm always railing about were funded by the good old USSR as insurgents, much like your Red Army Faction, and were intended to weaken & undermine NATO and the U.S. for purposes of Communist conquest.

The RAF had next to no support by the German people. The RAF members were frustrated, arrogant people who thought that their silly ideas must be promoted with terrorism. They had the absurd idea that this can bring the people on their side.

Would you instead point out the blessings Germany has brought to the world (as you mention above)? How Germany has advanced the human condition more than it has damaged it?

That kind of weighing would be silly. It's like asking whether you prefer being gassed or having no Beethoven.

Because America is responsible for the overwhelming majority of mankind's achievements in the modern era. Besides which, the plain fact is that if America had not taken the mantle of Western Civilization from the tottering British Empire, we'd be facing a world teeming with barbarism and corruption of an even greater magnitude than currently exists.

I understand why there are so many very proud Americans. I just think that pointless in most cases. It's as if I was very proud to be German because so many cultural and scientific achievements come from here. There's probably a proud German withing myself, but I know that this pride doesn't come from my achievements, so I take care not to let it take the upper hand. Perhaps I'm not successful at that all the time.

I say this recalling openly criminal German & French behavior regarding arming Saddam's Iraq with weapons of mass destruction while denouncing the American sanctions of same. But that's right, you don't like reading evidentiary links that undermine your biases. Yes, I'm kidding, but only marginally so.

As you know, I think that's nonsense. I'm not going to participate in another useless debate about that.

You can deny the USSR's sponsorship of anti-Western "democrats" all you like, but the Venona cables made it a matter of historical record. "It" meaning the USSR's support of Democrat Socialists, that is, not that Germans are cowardly murderous scum (gotta make sure I'm not misunderstood when indulging in hyperbolic phraseology ).

I've never heard of this. If the USSR was passing money to the social democrats, it doesn't mean that they were in anyway obliged to do what the USSR wanted or be dependent on them. I ask myself what the motives of the USSR were. Probably not supporting the social democrats. they were probably a greater threat to them than the conservatives. When Willy Brandt visited the GDR while he was chancellor in the early 70s, the GDR citizens were so enthusiastic and cheerful about him that the GDR rules became envious and concerned.

BTW, did you know that the GDR was secretly funding the NPD (German neonazi party during the cold war)? Certainly not to promote nazis, but to help the nazis at discredit western Germany.

 

[krischan]

I'll bet you if you asked all those people who favor it, the vast majority don't have any friken idea.

Actually, that's an unfair bet. I already know they don't have any friken idea. A lot of them think socialism is just a social media thing. Not kidding.

That's probably correct, but it's no different with those as well who oppose what they call socialistic.

 

[superdave]

I see your point, but being American and paying taxes are two separate things. You can be a US citizen without paying taxes, e.g. when living elsewhere. Likewise, non-Americans have to pay taxes as well if they have a job in the US.

Americans have to pay taxes on their worldwide income. The only people who don't pay taxes would be someone like Trump.

I am a resident alien living in the states. I have to pay US taxes on money I earn in the US AND also my worldwide income.

 

[Glurin]

That's probably correct, but it's no different with those as well who oppose what they call socialistic.

Considering a good chunk of the people who oppose it are individuals and families who fled here to get away from countries under the boot of socialism, I kinda doubt thats the case.

 

[krischan]

The socialism these people fled from is totally different from what they face in the US while the others just chose to oppose what they have been told to be socialism.

 

[krischan]

Americans have to pay taxes on their worldwide income. The only people who don't pay taxes would be someone like Trump.

I am a resident alien living in the states. I have to pay US taxes on money I earn in the US AND also my worldwide income.

So if you were an American who's living and having a job in e.g. Germany, you would have to pay taxes twice? How would that be calculated? Would it be possible that it's more than 100%?

 

[superdave]

So if you were an American who's living and having a job in e.g. Germany, you would have to pay taxes twice? How would that be calculated? Would it be possible that it's more than 100%?

You would still have to file a return in the states. You may be able to deduct some German taxes paid from your US taxes. I believe that the US, New Zealand and Eritrea are the only countries that tax worldwide income. There might be one small EU country that still does but it's been awhile since i've looked at international tax laws.

 

[Glurin]

New York will try to tax you for income during the time you were at the airport for a layover.

The socialism these people fled from is totally different from what they face in the US while the others just chose to oppose what they have been told to be socialism.

Typical excuse. "That was totally different. That wasn't really socialism. They did it wrong. This time it will work because we are doing real socialism the right way."

 

[superdave]

New York will try to tax you for income during the time you were at the airport for a layover.

Most people aren't at a NY airport 184 times in a year.

 

[jmervyn]

I see your point, but being American and paying taxes are two separate things. You can be a US citizen without paying taxes, e.g. when living elsewhere. Likewise, non-Americans have to pay taxes as well if they have a job in the US.

False; Americans pay both state and federal taxes despite living "OCONUS" (Outside the Continental US)... that's why Proggies living overseas flee to low-tax conservative states: they're hypocrites.

I believe Glurin also sums up my state of residence quite well -

New York will try to tax you for income during the time you were at the airport for a layover.

I would not defend the terrible deeds by the nazis and I agree that a lot of Germans participated and while they did that, enough of the others looked the other way. That includes those ancestors of mine which I knew personally.

That wasn't the question.

The RAF had next to no support by the German people. The RAF members were frustrated, arrogant people who thought that their silly ideas must be promoted with terrorism. They had the absurd idea that this can bring the people on their side.

Much like Progressive Democrats. However, the RAF never had a truly complicit media industry, if I recall correctly.

That kind of weighing would be silly. It's like asking whether you prefer being gassed or having no Beethoven.

Not really. Your recognition that Germany did horrible things doesn't undermine the good it has accomplished. That's precisely what Progressives claim of America: that the conjecture regarding the negatives means it ought to be destroyed - or more properly, enslaved and American wealth directed as they see fit... for purposes of restitution, to be sure.

Hunter Biden is a shining example of such Progressive morality. But I sincerely doubt you really know who the hell he is, because your own media works hand in glove with that of America.

There's probably a proud German withing myself, but I know that this pride doesn't come from my achievements, so I take care not to let it take the upper hand. Perhaps I'm not successful at that all the time.

You're not, so perhaps you'll recognize what I'm pointing out: Nationalism, in the abstract, is a good thing. If your nation is plagued with subversives and partisan division, which is precisely what Progressive Democrats thrive off, it's weakened and cannot stand external threats.

As you know, I think that's nonsense. I'm not going to participate in another useless debate about that.

Understood; the truth hurts.

I've never heard of this. If the USSR was passing money to the social democrats, it doesn't mean that they were in anyway obliged to do what the USSR wanted or be dependent on them. I ask myself what the motives of the USSR were. Probably not supporting the social democrats. they were probably a greater threat to them than the conservatives.

Well, of COURSE you won't have heard of it; traitors are never proud of their treason when it fails. It's why John Kerry had the stomach-churning gall to pretend having been a war hero when he actually colluded with the North Vietnamese against the U.S. , or when Teddy Kennedy coordinated with the USSR to help elect Walter Mondale.

BTW, did you know that the GDR was secretly funding the NPD (German neonazi party during the cold war)? Certainly not to promote nazis, but to help the nazis at discredit western Germany.

The GRU's efforts in support of American Democrats were pretty much along the same lines, but it was the more aggressive ones that got the most support, such as Tom Hayden (Jane Fonda's husband), Bill Ayers (Obama's sponsor & close co-worker), and to a lesser extent groups such as GreenPeace, Amnesty International, and the so-called Greenham Common Women (Ms. Blair - Tony's wife).

It was a fairly obvious strategy: harness the efforts from malcontents of the New Left and emphasize the negatives of Western society to such an extent that they overshadow any & all good. By creating vast new avenues of navel-gazing anti-Western thinking, they could ensure that the West would not unite in the face of Soviet aggression. They also pumped money into the assortment of anti-American groups at the time - not only the RAF but European terrorist groups across the board (I'm most familiar with the IRA/PIRA), as well as their historical support for labor unions. Western labor unions, of course - you may recall that the Soviets would physically destroy those organizing labor outside the officially sanctioned governmental structure.

In some ways it's humorous that the GRU's work outlasted the USSR itself, but continues to be a cancer in the minds of Westerners - including Glurin's reply again:

Typical excuse. "That was totally different. That wasn't really socialism. They did it wrong. This time it will work because we are doing real socialism the right way."

The GRU's sponsorship & (limited, for reasons made obvious by the USSR's collapse) financial backing of anti-Western & anti-American groups was set back by the collapse, but the sewer of Marxist "thought" is alive & well and now is seated in the White House. If you didn't know, President Xiden has replaced the Churchill bust in the Oval Office with one of César Chávez.

 

[zemaj]

I'm posting here soley because of @jmervyn proddings, just to answer his repeated nudges for me to do so:

This thread has way too much racially charged straight bullshit for me to not go off on an angry, emotionally fueled tangent, and I really try to stay peaceful and logical as I can. It's something I struggle with. Every. Damn. Day.

I live in the south US, Louisiana specifically. I love it here, and have moved off more times than I care to count, and ended up back here every time. I tell y'all this so you can understand when I say I know racism, and I know the different levels thereof, intimately, it is most likely true. It's something I have grown up with, seen on just about every side of the table, and have very strong opinions on. The first of which is, as bad as things can be here, and they can be quite bad, the rest of this nation is totally fucked up. Suffice it to say, it's harder to be racist when most people's family gatherings tends to look like someone spilled a bag of M&Ms...

Which isn't to say there aren't racists here, too damned many, which means >0, imo, and I would dearly love to reduce that number, but the local constabulary tend to frown on the most direct method of doing such, and you just cannot change someone else's mind for them, but the fact that when I stayed in Vermont I knew a couple that, though they would damned near faint when a rapper dropped a n-bomb, they one day crossed the street and walked on the other sidewalk until we passed a couple of guys smoking who happened to have a shade or two darker skin, and were totally stunned, saying "thats just how it is here!" when I went off on them once I pieced together the reason, is telling. In West Virginia, I was pretty much instantly the social pariah of the small town after making an offhand comment about how weird it was not having darker people around while at the bar one night. During the (very short) time I was in California, I was assaulted twice by darker skinned individuals, simply because I was dating a woman with darker skin. Later, in Colorado, my gf dumped me because I wouldn't "just not say anything" when racial division came up in a conversation. In Texas, when I said something to my 1 neighbor who I got on really well with about how everyone else in the trailer park I was living at all looked at me funny and would barely talk to me, he said, quote "most likely because you the whitest thing they seen so close to thier home since they filled the salt shaker". Meanwhile, in Missouri I lost someone I had known for years, closer than my biological brothers to me, because some dicks couldn't deal with him having the wrong color skin, and I wasn't there. I had really thought that kind of bullshit was isolated incidents blown out of proportion when I was younger. It's all so foriegn to me, I don't get any of these incidents, not a damned one makes any sense.

Back home, I grew up with an uncle who was a certified klansman, who also would never pass by someone on the side of the highway without stopping to see if he could help, regardless of what they looked like, because he had "definitely been there before, and don't want anyone else to be" and always was cool with my friend from next door, Jorge, coming to the camp with us (to be clear, he died before I really understood what all those decals on his truck and that funny robe he would sometimes wear really meant, though when it did dawn on me, I also remebered my dad telling him to "take that shit off before coming in my home"... I had thought dad meant his boots at the time, I heard that enough... ah, innocence...). My graduating high school class had no predominant skin color, and I don't remember ever seeing a group that was of a sole skin-tone, unless it was because someone had gone off to the bathroom or some such, in a scholastic setting until I went off to college. I work with dark skinned guys that, to this day, wear battleflag bandannas. It just isn't so much of thing here, and even when it is, it's typically not the violent shit the rest of this nation has... I like to think that is because we all (well, vast majority of us, anyway) know we all bleed the same, and that's just some assholes elsewhere trying to divide the people.

Seeing y'all, who I really like to think better of, as the vast majority here do seem to think more deeply than is average, buy into that divisive horseshit so fully sets me off, so much so I have never gotten past the first page, thus I'm not commenting here past this, because I don't want to know where the rest goes. I know that racism is never going to go away, not as long as people have free will, and I like my free will, so I have to accept that... nothing says I have to like it, however, so I don't, as part of my free will.

Maybe this will also help explain why I get so out of my shit when it does go there. Also why I am possibly more hostile to some than others, as they race-bait so frequently (I do try to edit down my posts, so maybe no one has picked up on that... if so, just be glad I do edit myself, pre-posting, is all I can say). I'll end this with possibly one of the best sentiments I've heard on the issue, to date:

(Second half, couldn't find a clip of just that, though the whole things is good as well)

(It took me 8 attempts to write this, and whittle it down to what you see here, without really blowing it, just for the record.)

((Also for the record, I've skipped large swaths of the Protests thread as well... anytime it goes much past one or two comments on those lines, I just give it a couple days and skip to the most recent posts, unless someone quotes/mentions me, then I typically only respond to that and let it get back to other points.))

(((Lastly for the record, I do still assert my opinions in racial discussions, just not online... I want people to see my eye twitch and forehead vein throb as I reply to thier inane drivel)))


EDIT:
I can't believe I wrote all that out, and then actually posted it... I'll let it stand, only because I refuse to take anything back, I said what I said. Please do not clog up yalls bullshit replying to this, if you want to say something, I got a PM inbox, and in case I wasn't clear, I don't want to be here.

 

[jmervyn]

in case I wasn't clear, I don't want to be here.

Well, bravo for posting in spite of yourself. Drunkenposts are the best posts.

******************************************

I may or may not have mentioned that I encountered casual racism more than once, but growing up in the West I was pleasantly able to ignore much of it. The first time racism *really* struck home for me was when a friend of mine ("black as the Ace of Spades, he was" as Monty Python would say) were driving to Infantry Officer Basic Camp in Columbus, GA from Tucson, AZ. I was the lead in our two-car convoy; I was with my wife in her Isuzu pickup and he was in a shiny new Ford Probe (AKA a "Lieutenantmobile").

Well, we had passed a gaggle of Alabama law enforcement by about 5 miles, and I realized we were going down the empty highway in the wrong direction. I decided to jump the median, and suddenly EVERY COP IN THE WORLD surrounded us. One came over to our pickup. Fifteen or more surrounded my friend's car (including at least a couple of black ones). I swear to God I thought they were going to pull him from his vehicle & commence beating. I think the only thing that saved us was that we were enroute to Ft. Benning.

******************************************

That said, the direction I hoped this thread would take was regarding ideology. Progressives, Marxists, fascists, Maoists, Communists, and various other forms of Democrats all despise the contemporary, and demand it be destroyed and remade as they desire.

The thing is, what does their alternative offer? Anarchy? Nihilism? Armageddon? Sounds groovy. Sure, change is scary and Democrats adore their "hope and change", but as any IT type can tell you, hope isn't something you build a plan on. When an ethos is responsible for over 100,000,000 dead in the 20th Century, it's sad to see how many people want to keep giving it one more chance.

 

[superdave]

This is the stage at CPAC. I did NAZI that coming.

 

[superdave]

The American Neo-Nazi Party rebranded a few years ago in an attempt to go mainstream. Out with the swastika and in with the Odal Rune.

https://www.news.com.au/world/north-america/americas-white-supremacists-ban-swastika-in-bm/news-story/53f68100bold-attempt-to-go-mainstreaa52a1e33b13cf25b794d028

 

[Glurin]

Yup, I thought as much.

Design firm takes full responsibility for CPAC stage design.

Short version, the firm had no idea that shape was now associated with nazis and there was no ill intent behind it at all. It was just a design meant to make the best use of the space available under the circumstances. According to the contract, the organizers had no rights to change or alter the stage.

By the way, the owner and many employees of that design firm are also apparently liberal Biden supporters. They've worked with many organizations including MSNBC and Google. CPAC will no longer be working with them going forward.

So what you have here is at most a simple oversight and nothing more. I will not be following woke mob playbook by accusing anyone directly involved of deliberate malicious intentions. The cancel culture mafia, oh yeah, they absolutely had malicious intent. There's no question on that front. But the organizers, the hotel, the design firms, attendees, carpenters, etc., no. It was a simple, easy mistake that resulted in bad optics and nothing more.

 

[superdave]

Yup, I thought as much.

Design firm takes full responsibility for CPAC stage design.

Short version, the firm had no idea that shape was now associated with nazis and there was no ill intent behind it at all. It was just a design meant to make the best use of the space available under the circumstances. According to the contract, the organizers had no rights to change or alter the stage.

By the way, the owner and many employees of that design firm are also apparently liberal Biden supporters. They've worked with many organizations including MSNBC and Google. CPAC will no longer be working with them going forward.

So what you have here is at most a simple oversight and nothing more. I will not be following woke mob playbook by accusing anyone directly involved of deliberate malicious intentions. The cancel culture mafia, oh yeah, they absolutely had malicious intent. There's no question on that front. But the organizers, the hotel, the design firms, attendees, carpenters, etc., no. It was a simple, easy mistake that resulted in bad optics and nothing more.

OK. Just a big misunderstanding. Those responsible have been canned.

 

[jmervyn]

By the way, the owner and many employees of that design firm are also apparently liberal Biden supporters. They've worked with many organizations including MSNBC and Google. CPAC will no longer be working with them going forward.

Yup, this #BlueAnon incident was a thing of beauty. Actual fascists dishonestly accusing conservatives of using NSDAP symbology simply in order to fondle themselves over their imagined moral rectitude and try to score cheap social media points.

Also worth repeating is (leftist) journalist Yashar Ali, who is one of the few Proggies who aren't unhinged lunatics, admonishing others on his team: "And before you ding her for working for CPAC, you try having an events business during a pandemic". Because that was happening, along the lines of their standard "her skirt was too short" thinking.


EDIT - thinking about it, I better explain #BlueAnon, considering I hadn't even heard about this perfect hashtag previously. An incessant accusation by the Left is that conservatives constantly traffic in lunatic conspiracy theories because they're such retards. Ignoring their own, significantly higher percentage of said trend, they point at the "Birther" theory, which was caused by Obama lying on his book jacket about his Kenyan nationality, among other supposed evidence. The most recent conservative conspiracy theory was that there was a patriot in the "deep state" who was sending coded messages and was helping the Trump administration expose the fascists intent on suppressing the Republic.

This patriot supposedly had a code name, "Q" and supporters were called #QAnon. It's a truly silly theory, cooked up by ignorant people who have watched too many episodes of "24". The fascists intent on suppressing the Republic openly boasted about it in Time Magazine, they were quite proud of their actual insurrection under the #Resist hashtag, and Trump undermined himself from the start of his administration by not firing the 'holdovers' engaging in that sedition. In contrast, there were never many QAnon believers as far as I ever saw; they were mostly on Twitter where conservatives and moderates are already endangered species, and it had about as much "supporting evidence" as the #Pizzagate conspiracy theory...

{/glances at President Biden trying to pinch a 9-year-old girl's nipples on camera} Probably even less "supporting evidence" than #Pizzagate.

 

[superdave]

Well there you go. It was the liberals fault all along. Close this case.