About D2R patch 2.4 - their ideas - and mine

[Helvete]

So, they're crossing quite a few more lines, it would seem. I'm... nervous, but excited. More on the nervous side, since I'm beginning to show my age, and don't take too kindly to change any longer.

My biggest worry is that they will make the game super ez mode, and anyone and their gaming grandma will have several lvl 99 characters, putting our previous achievements (mine included, I only ever reached 99 once) in the shadow.

Now, there were already some steps taken to make the game easier before D2R - mainly respecs, and the fact that you can get as many as you like. Before that, they took away Iron Maiden curse from hostiles. The latest is they fixed the Tomb Vipers, who had been working as intended for like a decade.

But this time, I'm getting more nervous, because there is quite a lot of talk about buffing, and not a lot of nerfs being mentioned. Worst case scenario, any skill becomes super viable, making build choice purely aesthetic. Worst case scenario #2 is for multiplayer, but if they indeed make necromages viable, and at the same time make druid summons viable... how many friendly minions would be on screen? Necro alone could easily make 50 minions, counting revives. Then you may end up with two of them in the party, with your summon druid tagging along, and all of these need to display their auras, curses, warcry buffs, and a monstrous amount of animations.... Won't this impact performance a lot?

Also, I'm all for new runewords, breaking up the act 2 merc monopoly, ladder season... I just hope they will add the ladder content to Single Player from day one, and not take another decade to implement it, like the last time.

On the other hand, if they do buff everything on our side, they may soon realize that the challenge of beating the game / getting high lvl was severely weakened, and implement countermeasures. What I really would like to see is achievements implemented, tailored around self-imposed handicaps, speedrunning and item collecting.

 

[Tatterson]

I would not mind some buffs for really bad skills such as druid summoner skills or javazon stabs, but I am scared of what they are going to do, especially if they force the updates to everyone in singleplayer without the option to play with the 1.13 values. People have archieved D2R in its current state, so playing in HD + 1.13c is possible in the future I guess, but maybe not officially. It will be interesting to see what happens, but honestly I have no faith in Blizzard or anything associated.

 

[TheNix]

I just finished reading the proposed changes for the next patch and I feel a little nervous too. I guess it will all come down to how they implement these changes.

 

[ipsilantee]

I'm feeling a bit nervous with a tinge of naive excitement as well. There are a lot of possibilities laid out and I sincerely hope the item grind of this game isn't changed so that rare drops become trivial or that level 99 becomes common. That would be a change that convinces me to go back to LoD and stop playing D2R.

I'd love it if they nailed skill buffs, balancing mercs, and new rune words without flipping the game on its head.

 

[Triple Helix]

I would like it best if they didn't do anything other than fix bugs or improve UI. I don't have a lot of trust or confidence that they won't cater to the masses by making things too easy, like in D3.

 

[Dudzy]

Will see i guess, i am excited to see new runewords and balance changes to make skills more viable. Having more build options is never a bad thing. Honestly as long as they dont tweak exp gain, drop rates or make the game way too easy im fine with anything else. I mean the current runewords already break the game, its just it takes someone on single player a very long time to get to that point. Nothing here sounds bad but it will come down to execution. Hell, make Tyreals Might something other then a collectors piece already! It dont have to break the game but it be cool if it was BIS for something considering the rarity.

Also want clarification on if we get the ladder runewords day one. I dont get holding them back for single player.

 

[softlyfalling]

These changes were almost inevitable, unfortunately. In non-PvP games, developers must not balance by listening to the community, because there is an obvious conflict of interest: the players want to be stronger, not to be "balanced." The voice of the community has only grown as time has passed and communication media have expanded, and so has their sway over changes to game development. The voice of the enemies, of course, remains silent.

Look at runewords. Ladder runewords get proposed, and can be wildly powerful because they are apparently intended only to be temporary rewards. But then as they get acquired and stick around, they gain inertia, and now what once were absurdly powerful, experimental items (Infinity, Grief, Spirit, Lawbringer, Insight...) become normalized as what items should be. Instead of removing these items from the game, the expectation is now that this is the appropriate power level for items, and otherwise powerful items should be buffed to these incredible heights of power. And now these runewords appear to be permanent fixtures of the game, and have even spread to be acquirable outside of the ladder.

And then, of course, there are the not-so-obvious examples of power creep. "Fixing" the Tomb Viper bug is a terrible idea, in my opinion. Those bugs that increase difficulty of certain encounters are some of the most interesting parts of the game, sometimes even requiring creative solutions. Instead of eradicating that mechanic, it would be better to enshrine it, perhaps even spread it around: requiring the character to stand still occasionally might not be such a bad thing! Will the same fate befall invisible CE or FE explosions on LE+CE or LE+FE unique monsters?

Skill buffs will make many (all?) characters more powerful. Is that really what people want? For a game that's been out for 20 years, which has been defeated in nearly every way imaginable, to be easier? Instead, why not buff all the monsters that seem almost inconsequential? Give Goatmen the ability to use Sacrifice, return Vultures to their former glory, let Fetish Shamans revive allies more consistently, let Siege Beasts ground slam attack actually land occasionally, and let Succubi cast the Blood Mana curse unconditionally! These are the types of changes I'd be interested in seeing, not changes that make the game flat and lifeless.

 

[Nona]

To me it should be a remastered game, not a remade game. It gives a chance for an old generation (me) to share something with a new generation (my kids). I like having the challenges of ubers and Dclone added. I like that I feel I have accomplished something if I make a guardian. I don't want an easier game. If anything I would like reasons to spend more time in atypical areas. Maybe a progressive MF or area level bonus as you full clear other areas in the act. I agree that achievements would be cool. I like games like GTA that had a 100% completion list. I also always wanted a stash in game that tracked my grail that I could page through. So many dreams...

 

[lizard]

I had also hoped for nerfs of powerful skills and runewords, but instead they aee going to buff underused items and skills.

they said in an interview with ign that they wanted to be conservative and not touch any of the powerful items, which i kinda get and i hope they adjust the buffs correctly so we dont end up just buffing new build into dominance.

i think they correctly identified problem areas of the game and i look forward to see how they want to address these.

i am more skeptical of the community who will demand more and more powerful items and skills as time goes on and we end up as another PoE one button screen exploder.

hopefully they do a round of nerfs after they introduce these new things and not just buff things to enigma and grief level.

doubtful that these ladder runeword will be unlocked in sp from the beginning. they moght aftet the imaugural season, but i also would not be surprised if they dont.

 

[ffs]

I didn't like learning about the tomb viper change either. As someone who finished 3 untwinked 99ers at Nihlathak, it’s almost a slap in the face.

Like others, I too was excited about D2R as a remastered (only) game, with just a couple of QoL changes. In fact Blizzard had always expressed that was the idea.

Balance changes, new runewords… this won’t be "my" game anymore.

 

[snickersnack]

I agree with a lot of the above posts that there is a decent chance that blizz will make the game easier, but they may also add a new difficulty. Maybe an Uber difficulty where every act boss is the Uber version and all of the other mobs are scaled up accordingly. Maybe they'll make it so that it's more difficult to beat the game solo, twinked or not. Also, since there are going to be new runewords, the game will certainly be easier unless they make some other change that balances it.

 

[J-Dog]

I personally don't mind them making changes to the game. I feel like the devs have a decent understanding of what makes this game tick. To me the most important thing is not messing too much with the overall difficulty curve of the game. This boils down to skill balance, item balance and drop rates.

I really enjoy the fixed difficulty in D2 because it makes the progression so apparent. With most builds by investing time you can progress from P1 to P3 to P7 for example and getting efficient in P7 takes a lot of investment with any character.

To not mess with that balance they should be very careful when tweaking skills and I trust that they understand this. Interesting example would be Necromancers bone skills and how are they tweaking the synergies to make them more powerful in higher difficulty settings. I'm not worried at all about the underused skill tweaks. I trust that Arctic Blast won't outperform Hammerdins after the patch.

What I don't really like, and this is more of a universal thing in gaming, is how devs implement player base feedback into their game. I found this GDC presentation by Mark Rosewater where he talks about developing Magic the Gathering extremely interesting (at 55:54 he is talking about the interaction with the player base):

Oh and if you haven't watched David Breviks presentation yet, you're welcome:

 

[Kartongen]

A link for people as lazy as me.

Edit: I must say I like their ideas of what to change, but I do fear that it will be a different game once such a change is made. As others have said, I hope they give single players the options on staying on an older patch, so "purists" (or whatever I should call them) can keep playing something more alike the game we love.

I personally get the feeling that someone will need to write a new rune word mod for D2R very soon though...

New Horadric Cube Recipes being implemented will allow for upgrading the item quality of Set Items to give more item build possibilities.

Unless they remove CBF from death's sash, it is now one of the best set items. ^^

One last thing about the patch notes: they will give amazon melee skills (i.e. physical spear/jav skills) some love. Amazing! But no mention of NHAM. What?

I have mixed emotions about this patch. (The corresponding phrase to mixed emotions is fear-tempered excitement (or something like that) in my language, which describes my stance quite well.)

 

[softlyfalling]

To not mess with that balance they should be very careful when tweaking skills and I trust that they understand this. Interesting example would be Necromancers bone skills and how are they tweaking the synergies to make them more powerful in higher difficulty settings. I'm not worried at all about the underused skill tweaks. I trust that Arctic Blast won't outperform Hammerdins after the patch.

The issue is not so much the underused skills being buffed to better than the best skills in the game, it's the interaction of abilities when creating a build. Take the Amazon melee skill buffs, for instance. It is unlikely these skills will end up being better at clearing most of the game than Charged Strike + Lightning Fury, of course. However, Charged Strike + Lightning Fury is an incredibly potent build, hamstrung primarily against lightning immune enemies. So Fend does not need to be stronger than Charged Strike or Lightning Fury, it only needs to be sometimes stronger than the other backup abilities such an Amazon would use against LIs (Poison jav skills, FArrow), for CS + LF Amazons to be stronger on the margin.

It is a similar case with the proposed mercenary buffs. A2 mercs are clearly head-and-shoulders above the rest; I would argue they are a clear candidate for a nerf. Should mercenaries really be that powerful, providing two auras to the player and handling most enemies on their own? Instead, it seems the rest of the mercenaries will receive buffs to compensate. They don't have to be better than A2 mercs at every area of the game, just at some specific portion of it to make the game easier. Maybe A3 mercs start doing decent elemental damage, so primarily physical damage builds don't have to worry about dealing elemental damage anymore to take care of PIs.

It is my perception that the game is already too simple, and requires numerous houserules to become interesting in the first place (see: all the SPF tournaments and their restrictions). So any list of changes that includes only changes in the upwards power direction can't help but make me skeptical of the designers' capabilities.

 

[Foghorn Leghorn]

But this time, I'm getting more nervous, because there is quite a lot of talk about buffing, and not a lot of nerfs being mentioned.

My hope is that there are indeed nerfs coming as well, but they just weren't mentioned because of the negative connotations associated with them. I agree with the consensus that the skills as a whole need a BALANCE adjustment, with some getting beefed up and some getting nerfed, rather than just beefing some weaker skills up to be on par with OP skills. I love playing a Fishymancer, but I'll be the first to admit that Corpse Explosion is way too strong, as are some other particular skills (Blizzard, Lightning Fury, etc.). When a new release/season/etc. comes out, and 95% of the first characters are the same three or four paths, that to me is a problem that needs to be addressed.

The same should be done for the monsters too. I wasn't a fan of Oblivion Knights being able to cast Iron Maiden because I feel like melee characters are already up against it when compared to ranged/casters, but I do like that the Oblivion Knights are now casting Lower Resist. And I think @softlyfalling listed some great ideas regarding other ways to address this. Part of this rebalancing can also involve repositioning some of the Super Uniques. For example, I always found Ancient Kaa The Soulless to be one of the tougher Super Uniques out there - but given he is always in one of the false tombs (which no one ever enters anyway), when was the last time anyone even faced him? Move him to the chamber where the orifice for the Horadric Staff gets placed, just like Rakanishu guards the Cairn Stones and Fangskin guards the Tainted Sun Altar.

Actually, my bigger concern is the rune words. There are so many overpowered rune words as it is....and now they want to introduce more? Meanwhile, many others just sit there pretty much unused. To me, these need a rebalance just as badly as the skills do....if not moreso - they surely don't need to add MORE overpowered rune words. Short of just removing rune words entirely (which to me would be a very intriguing step), the very first thing I would do if I were in charge of a new patch, and I know this would not be popular at all, is to remove Teleport from Enigma. Right after that, I would look at Infinity and either nerf the Conviction or remove it entirely, and then nerf Grief.

 

[Vang]

Isn't the term challenge subjective? There are many ways to play this game. If adding additional avenues and alternatives to already popular gear setups and skills, would that not be a boon to the game?

I know in some tournaments it would really buff a few classes' ability to excel.

I love Fend, but it is a horrible skill, I imagine the overall skill is going to be overhauled to a max of 5 hits sort of like Zeal or a total overall to something different.

There is a lot that can go right and a lot that can go wrong. The good news is you can still go play the OG if you want too at any moment. But like I said in the other thread, I've been waiting for something like this for years and when D2R was announced I knew it would come.

 

[Cattleya]

The good news is you can still go play the OG if you want too at any moment.

Unless you're like me and can't because the old graphics on modern monitors causes too much eye strain. So I'm effectively trapped with whatever they do.

I'm very nervous. I won't lie, as soon I saw them mention buffing underperforming sets I was triggered by what happened with sets in D3. (Although upgrading set stuff makes me happy — Death's Belt for all!) I mean, buffing up underused but fun skills can be a very good thing. But I'm going to be very wary given my D3 experience. (The changes to the Inna set recently brought the set back into the meta, but it completely killed off several fun non-meta builds. And I don't mean made them less viable, I mean the set changes mean that those builds no longer exist at all.)

 

[maxicek]

Why are they ramming “Content creator MrLlamaSC” down my throat? Since when did he become the voice of Diablo?

Best case: They make underused skills marginally less underused. I don’t expect BNet to suddenly be full of Fendazons and FoH Paladins though.

 

[Oblivious]

Why are they ramming “Content creator MrLlamaSC” down my throat? Since when did he become the voice of Diablo?

Second that...

Anyway, I must echo the feeling of the forum, I'm excited and kinda nervous. The chasm between LoD and D2R is inevitably gonna keep growing. Some might choose to go back even. We shall soon see.

 

[lizard]

Why are they ramming “Content creator MrLlamaSC” down my throat? Since when did he become the voice of Diablo?

Best case: They make underused skills marginally less underused. I don’t expect BNet to suddenly be full of Fendazons and FoH Paladins though.

He is super popular and arguably the biggest pure d2 streamer out there.

Also he is fairly purist and has good opinions on the game, from what i have seen.
he is pro nerfs of grief enigma etc and that melee has to be adressed (e.g. overall ar buff)
he had a series of videos on suggested changes and most of those were very sensible imo.