2019 Spring RFL Sign-up and Running Thread: 2nd Round
- Thread starter Grape1
- Start date
Babyhell
Well-known member
It's mostly about the goal. "Maniac" mode tests the limits of the character. Now I kinda prefer more relaxed slower pace of playing at ~17s rather than pushing it to the limits.
What I would present as biggest advantage of 200 fcr sorc is the lack of mobility from minions, they are more stationary and more cooperative to take damage. Should be tested on a less perfect map, but with this I can keep them immobile for 10-15 runs in a row from time to time resulting in fast killing even though sorceress lacks damage compared to 105 fcr variants. And ofc timed saved on teleporting alone.
What I would present as biggest advantage of 200 fcr sorc is the lack of mobility from minions, they are more stationary and more cooperative to take damage. Should be tested on a less perfect map, but with this I can keep them immobile for 10-15 runs in a row from time to time resulting in fast killing even though sorceress lacks damage compared to 105 fcr variants. And ofc timed saved on teleporting alone.
Took a break from Barb to give 200 FCR Sorc a try. I ran with this setup:
First I tried taking advantage of the 2/20 amulet and use HotO, given 40 FCR would be enough for me. But I do need the higher resists from Wizzy, plus its extra mana is very helpful, so I ended up with the above setup. I ignored MF completely for now, but it's obviously harder to include than with 105 FCR. I still used the 2/20 amulet which allowed me to include SoJ – not only the +1 skill but also the extra mana was very welcome due to spamming more Ice Blast.
To test her I used the Sorc which had my next most recent map, the one I ran first half of my Sorc set with. I had ~16.5 second runs with 105 FCR setup there. Now the 200 FCR variant came in at ~16.7 – so it's very similar. On my new map (and other Sorc) I was at ~16.4 towards the end of her set with 105 FCR. I think that map is stronger, so maybe in order to test 200 FCR thoroughly I will need to respec her, too. But definitely this is one of the most efficient setups also on non-perfect maps. Likely beats 105 FCR setups without Fathom, though the gear used for 200 FCR isn't super easy to come by either...
(EDIT: To clarify, all times are with nothing or almost nothing picked up, since I wanted to compare the fastest times with either variant.)
I'll try some more with her, maybe socket a Griffon's with cold facet, and see if it's possible to surpass 105 FCR run times with her. I expect to end up sticking to 105 FCR setup though. It's just much more convenient with higher life and mana, higher MF and in particular I missed the QoL from Hellmouth constantly healing me. With 200 FCR you can't include such stats and have to juggle with both stat points (Dex for Wizzy, Str for Spirit) and skill points (CM and Static need more hard points). This goes to the detriment of Blizzard synergies and life amount, meaning lower Blizzard damage and I need to be more careful with her. It's normally fine, but she doesn't forgive mistakes so easily. So assuming 105 FCR ends up not being any worse, I think I'll stick to that for these reasons.
Will try to record a few 200 FCR runs tomorrow on non-Gripp map.
Code:
Griffon's 24/20 (5/5 lightning facet*)
Wizzy (4/3 cold facet**)
2/20 amulet
Blizzard Ormus (5/5 cold facet)
35 Spirit
SoJ
FCR/stat/life/res ring
TO Claws
Arach
Aldur's
* Not yet committing with cold facet atm & lightning helps Static.
** Same, for now I used a 4/3 for testing purposes.First I tried taking advantage of the 2/20 amulet and use HotO, given 40 FCR would be enough for me. But I do need the higher resists from Wizzy, plus its extra mana is very helpful, so I ended up with the above setup. I ignored MF completely for now, but it's obviously harder to include than with 105 FCR. I still used the 2/20 amulet which allowed me to include SoJ – not only the +1 skill but also the extra mana was very welcome due to spamming more Ice Blast.
To test her I used the Sorc which had my next most recent map, the one I ran first half of my Sorc set with. I had ~16.5 second runs with 105 FCR setup there. Now the 200 FCR variant came in at ~16.7 – so it's very similar. On my new map (and other Sorc) I was at ~16.4 towards the end of her set with 105 FCR. I think that map is stronger, so maybe in order to test 200 FCR thoroughly I will need to respec her, too. But definitely this is one of the most efficient setups also on non-perfect maps. Likely beats 105 FCR setups without Fathom, though the gear used for 200 FCR isn't super easy to come by either...
(EDIT: To clarify, all times are with nothing or almost nothing picked up, since I wanted to compare the fastest times with either variant.)
I'll try some more with her, maybe socket a Griffon's with cold facet, and see if it's possible to surpass 105 FCR run times with her. I expect to end up sticking to 105 FCR setup though. It's just much more convenient with higher life and mana, higher MF and in particular I missed the QoL from Hellmouth constantly healing me. With 200 FCR you can't include such stats and have to juggle with both stat points (Dex for Wizzy, Str for Spirit) and skill points (CM and Static need more hard points). This goes to the detriment of Blizzard synergies and life amount, meaning lower Blizzard damage and I need to be more careful with her. It's normally fine, but she doesn't forgive mistakes so easily. So assuming 105 FCR ends up not being any worse, I think I'll stick to that for these reasons.
Will try to record a few 200 FCR runs tomorrow on non-Gripp map.
Last edited:
I'm happy you like it, @Yng
@ffs
Good tests. I'm really happy you are willing to test characters in details you do. You definitely offer more realistic observations from a less rich perspective for a players who don't have all the gear I have. I like how we together arrive to valuable conclusions about the builds.
You are correct about 200 fcr variant to have much more needy gear to make it work properly. Alternative I'd consider for less rich players include Vipermagi armor with Hoto, but that is what each player needs to test for himself to determine is that a better option than a typical 105 fcr variant since Hellmouth gloves and Wisp offer so much safety for running and extra damage might mean more on a less perfect maps.
Most important observation I'm interested in is does 200 fcr help keep minions in place more often. I did final running today and managed to keep minions immobile for a whooping 30+ runs which is just incredible and never happened with a 105 fcr variant, although on my map they can scatter only on one direction, not two. They would still scatter to the mini corner out of reach of the Blizzard forcing me to Blast them or leave them alone every x runs. Now this is minimal.
@ffs
Good tests. I'm really happy you are willing to test characters in details you do. You definitely offer more realistic observations from a less rich perspective for a players who don't have all the gear I have. I like how we together arrive to valuable conclusions about the builds.
You are correct about 200 fcr variant to have much more needy gear to make it work properly. Alternative I'd consider for less rich players include Vipermagi armor with Hoto, but that is what each player needs to test for himself to determine is that a better option than a typical 105 fcr variant since Hellmouth gloves and Wisp offer so much safety for running and extra damage might mean more on a less perfect maps.
Most important observation I'm interested in is does 200 fcr help keep minions in place more often. I did final running today and managed to keep minions immobile for a whooping 30+ runs which is just incredible and never happened with a 105 fcr variant, although on my map they can scatter only on one direction, not two. They would still scatter to the mini corner out of reach of the Blizzard forcing me to Blast them or leave them alone every x runs. Now this is minimal.
Peytron
Active member
Well, I've only managed to get a few hours in so hopefully RNG will do its thing and help me out. The Council did manage to drop the last normal set item I needed though, so that's something.
View attachment 13421
View attachment 13421
Admittedly I have good options for Sorc. But in general, for most of the top MF/RF builds, I think you can still get some of the best results even without perfect gear and time-travel stuff and so on. At least I like to blame any differences on other things such as map and lack of practice.
Generally it's possible to run her with rather common gear, but in such case the scales are definitely tipped towards 105 FCR. Griffon's can be substituted with rare/magic circlet, either with 15+ craft ammy as you said or just Wizzy + Viper. Hoto/Viper has same resists as Ormus/Wizzy and Viper provides some MDR which is nice. But to me it seems Blizzard Ormus (if available) is the clear choice for 200 FCR Blizzy, because you do need to make up for damage lost.
I'm curious as to your exact gear in use though – would you mind posting the GoMule dump?
I didn't notice any difference to 105 FCR in this regard. I will respec the other Sorc with my new/better map as well and pay more attention to this. Also realized I have one Griffon's with nothing too valuable socketed. But with my 105 FCR setup I could already run that new map so that they very reliably stick together anyway. I'd be surprised if the 200 FCR setup affects council behaviour.
By the way I saw you're using tele trick with Sorc as well to go back to WP. Did you compare this to teleporting normal full screens and using TK from further away to the right of WP? I found that was faster for Sorc on every map I tested both approaches (due to less mouse movement as mentioned in the vid I posted earlier), and distance is even smaller on yours.
Basics of the gear you know, these are few "special" items I use:
Maxed allres except poison which is 70 area.
I don't use wrapper, so I can't properly click on the edge of the screen to reliably end up using only 4 teleports towards waypoint. I tried without the trick, but ended up using 5, sometimes even 6 teleports to get to the waypoint. Now I reliably can count on only 4, sometimes even 3 needed, so it effectively reduces 1 to 2 teleports for me.
Blood Clasp
Amulet
Required Level: 89
Fingerprint: 0x952f35a9
Item Level: 92
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+2 to Sorceress Skill Levels
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+18 to Mana
Regenerate Mana 5%
All Resistances +17
Fire Resist +33%
Magic Damage Reduced by 1
Eagle Coil
Ring
Required Level: 48
Fingerprint: 0x6c8eee06
Item Level: 96
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+24 to Attack Rating
+28 to Life
+5 Maximum Stamina
All Resistances +10
15% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
Storm Finger
Ring
Required Level: 9
Fingerprint: 0xab522c20
Item Level: 85
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+26 to Attack Rating
+2 to Life
Lightning Resist +18%
Fire Resist +5%
14% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
Inventory:
Skillers with dexterity/life, 40 MF Gheed
Small charms using 6 MF with best mana I have, 7 MF 5@ charm and 7/10 LR, 7/11 LR SC
14 BO CtA which is a huge help
Amulet
Required Level: 89
Fingerprint: 0x952f35a9
Item Level: 92
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+2 to Sorceress Skill Levels
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+18 to Mana
Regenerate Mana 5%
All Resistances +17
Fire Resist +33%
Magic Damage Reduced by 1
Eagle Coil
Ring
Required Level: 48
Fingerprint: 0x6c8eee06
Item Level: 96
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+24 to Attack Rating
+28 to Life
+5 Maximum Stamina
All Resistances +10
15% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
Storm Finger
Ring
Required Level: 9
Fingerprint: 0xab522c20
Item Level: 85
Version: Expansion 1.10+
+10% Faster Cast Rate
+26 to Attack Rating
+2 to Life
Lightning Resist +18%
Fire Resist +5%
14% Better Chance of Getting Magic Items
Inventory:
Skillers with dexterity/life, 40 MF Gheed
Small charms using 6 MF with best mana I have, 7 MF 5@ charm and 7/10 LR, 7/11 LR SC
14 BO CtA which is a huge help
Maxed allres except poison which is 70 area.
I don't use wrapper, so I can't properly click on the edge of the screen to reliably end up using only 4 teleports towards waypoint. I tried without the trick, but ended up using 5, sometimes even 6 teleports to get to the waypoint. Now I reliably can count on only 4, sometimes even 3 needed, so it effectively reduces 1 to 2 teleports for me.
Ah I didn't realize the beta CtA before. That is of course a huge help for her.
I respec'ed the other Sorc and ran a bunch with 200 FCR on the other map. I wasn't able to reproduce the 16.7 second runs I had yesterday. (I didn't record those so I don't know, maybe I skipped minions there or something, or runs just went perfectly right.) Uploaded one "not perfect but overall solid" batch, averaging 17.1 seconds:
It could be a tiny bit faster since I had a couple of misclicks, and I'm still using low roll facets because I didn't want to commit good ones yet (and likely won't). But those things don't add up to the difference to 16.4 seconds which I can get with 105 FCR setup:
Regarding council movement, again I didn't notice a difference with 200 FCR. If anything they moved a little more. Which makes sense actually: If for example run time is the same, then slightly more time of the run is spent fighting the council (because less time is spent teleporting), which can give them more time to move around.
So in short, in my case at least 200 FCR provides no advantage over 105 FCR. Of course could be different with perfect map and stuff like beta CtA. But I'd assume also for others it's not any better than solid 105 FCR setups (at least with current-patch gear and humanly possible maps
). Lower life, lower MF, no healing from Hellmouth, higher mana usage... Individually that's fine in each case, but in conjunction these result in more uncomfortable running, while not providing a speed advantage it seems.
That being said, very cool approach in the first place. Generally it's nice that you still try to push the limits, and your demonstrations are very helpful in seeing what is possible. (Until just a couple of weeks ago when you posted sub-16 runs, I wondered if I could even averge sub-18. Now that's kind of normal.
)
I respec'ed the other Sorc and ran a bunch with 200 FCR on the other map. I wasn't able to reproduce the 16.7 second runs I had yesterday. (I didn't record those so I don't know, maybe I skipped minions there or something, or runs just went perfectly right.) Uploaded one "not perfect but overall solid" batch, averaging 17.1 seconds:
It could be a tiny bit faster since I had a couple of misclicks, and I'm still using low roll facets because I didn't want to commit good ones yet (and likely won't). But those things don't add up to the difference to 16.4 seconds which I can get with 105 FCR setup:
Regarding council movement, again I didn't notice a difference with 200 FCR. If anything they moved a little more. Which makes sense actually: If for example run time is the same, then slightly more time of the run is spent fighting the council (because less time is spent teleporting), which can give them more time to move around.
So in short, in my case at least 200 FCR provides no advantage over 105 FCR. Of course could be different with perfect map and stuff like beta CtA. But I'd assume also for others it's not any better than solid 105 FCR setups (at least with current-patch gear and humanly possible maps
). Lower life, lower MF, no healing from Hellmouth, higher mana usage... Individually that's fine in each case, but in conjunction these result in more uncomfortable running, while not providing a speed advantage it seems.That being said, very cool approach in the first place. Generally it's nice that you still try to push the limits, and your demonstrations are very helpful in seeing what is possible. (Until just a couple of weeks ago when you posted sub-16 runs, I wondered if I could even averge sub-18. Now that's kind of normal.
)I find it interesting we arrived to opposite conclusions regarding minion movement. There might also be the human factor involved. Now I nearly never have to chase minions around with Blasts, full focus is on items dropped and more fluent teleporting could make me more relaxed and faster in that way. I don't know what else could be the reason. In either case, sorceress seems to have tons of options for gearing, probably most versatile character in the whole diablo world.
I have 4 hours left and then have to farm that mattock from cows for facets
I have 4 hours left and then have to farm that mattock from cows for facets
Belthazor
New member
Just got 2 unique rings from the Council in the same run. Only Dwarf Star and Raven Frost, but still kinda cool.
I'm 2 hours in with my Barb now. Averaging 37.5 seconds at the moment, which, surprisingly, is almost 7 seconds faster than my old Barb in 1.13, even though he had dual Grief, which the new one hasn't. He's also more efficient than my sorc, whose average time was 28.4 seconds. Her map could be improved, though. It's very similar to Babyhell's. I find the Barb a lot more relaxing to play, too.
I'm 2 hours in with my Barb now. Averaging 37.5 seconds at the moment, which, surprisingly, is almost 7 seconds faster than my old Barb in 1.13, even though he had dual Grief, which the new one hasn't. He's also more efficient than my sorc, whose average time was 28.4 seconds. Her map could be improved, though. It's very similar to Babyhell's. I find the Barb a lot more relaxing to play, too.
Babyhell
Well-known member
This.
6.5 hours to go with Barb set here. He can't seem to find many qualifiers, at a 3.5 hour drought now. 
#complaining Couple nice non-qualifiers though including 3rd Metalgrid.
Looking forward to R3 already though. The other day I tweaked one Java specifically for AS running. I hope many people will count monsters in AS so we can see better how it compares to e.g. Trav. Wouldn't be surprised if it came very close at least.
#complaining Couple nice non-qualifiers though including 3rd Metalgrid.Looking forward to R3 already though. The other day I tweaked one Java specifically for AS running. I hope many people will count monsters in AS
so we can see better how it compares to e.g. Trav. Wouldn't be surprised if it came very close at least.
@ffs Right now I'm rushing up a Sorc to test out AS! I have seen your posts on the Java Setup, do you have a link to some estimates on the number of monsters killed?
In your route you are taking a full lap and then going to act 4, was that only because you have that horrible 'go west' lag or is it actually faster? I think some people theorized about skipping to another 'wing' of the AS on the way back to get some groups there.
In your route you are taking a full lap and then going to act 4, was that only because you have that horrible 'go west' lag or is it actually faster? I think some people theorized about skipping to another 'wing' of the AS on the way back to get some groups there.
I'm creating sorc who has 100% chance to 1 shot ghost in CS or 2 shot minions, but I'm not sure what resists are needed there. I would have to test are Hellmouth gloves enough to hold the fire damage off while fire resists isn't maxed, also not sure about other resists. I would use nearly maxed poison since I know it is annoying, but runs would be short and I don't know would it affect anything at all.
So much lack of knowledge, ISO CS masters to help so I don't have to test things. I'm usually just putting strong gear on with overall strong resists and go go, but this requires precision.
So much lack of knowledge, ISO CS masters to help so I don't have to test things. I'm usually just putting strong gear on with overall strong resists and go go, but this requires precision.
@art_vandelay I don't know which way to start runs is faster to be honest – difference is milliseconds either way. Don't think adding other wings is beneficial. The "straight path" wing is the most easily farmed one, and starting a new run is not any slower than going to other wings with less advantageous layout...
As for kills, I only counted monsters in one small sample here and arrived at ~215 per minute. That included normal monsters and is counting ghosts as 3.59. Don't know how many of those were ghosts. Anyway the sample was very small, so definitely need to count more monsters this year – hope you will, too!
Don't think adding other wings is beneficial. The "straight path" wing is the most easily farmed one, and starting a new run is not any slower than going to other wings with less advantageous layout...As for kills, I only counted monsters in one small sample here and arrived at ~215 per minute. That included normal monsters and is counting ghosts as 3.59. Don't know how many of those were ghosts. Anyway the sample was very small, so definitely need to count more monsters this year – hope you will, too!
@ffs I did some testing now. I had the idea to use the Bone Prison Charges on Marrowwalk to lure ghosts on one spot. Since they can move freely all over the map they should go straight to the source of the Bone Prison. (1000 hours in paint coming up )
View attachment 13440
I moved from the WP to the red dot where I cast BP on some monsters. Then I teleported to the upmost corner (above the orange dot) and then on the position of the orange dot spotted a bosspack of specters hovering towards the red dot. I drew a line to find out where they came frome and marked that spot with a yellow cross.
I think that Bone Prison can indeed lure monsters as far away as the green line indicates however their AI needs to be 'activated' first. From what I know this mechanism is the same with attract and Bone Wall (and that can be cast without a target)
As it stands right now this mostly causes specters to hover over the abyss and it doesn't do what I wanted it to do: Lure specters from the northern wing to the rightmost platform of the western wing. (North = upper right corner of the screen, West = upper left corner)
The run would have been this: Teleport to the red spot and cast BP and then do a lap. Upon returning to the red spot you would find a nice clump of specters from the northern wing to finish with.
---
There must be some order of doing things and a spot to cast BP to make this useful. Especially for Necros who can BW wherever they want. For example a necro could try to do this on a map like this:
View attachment 13441
Cast BW on the red spot and then do a lap to activate specters in the W and S wing. By the time you return to the middle some of the specters from the W should have made it there and you can cast Attract on them. Then you do the second lap to activate specters in the N and E wing and return to the middle to kill the first two batches of specters creating corpses for the arrival of the specters from the other wings.
This map has only two 'bridges' between corners of wings. I have never cared about those so I don't know wether it is possible to get three or four allowing for a full 'lap' without returning to the middle. However that is probably unavoidable as BW only lasts 24 seconds. (Same for BP. Attract has its length quartered in Hell so 24 is reasonable if you invest 20 points into it)
Necro can't use Bone spells for damage as specters have 50% magic resist and merc is basically useless against them so the first kill would have to come from poison and then CE until the middle is clear.
---
I just made a sorc for this. I'm going to be very tilted if necro somehow becomes the most efficient at it
)View attachment 13440
I moved from the WP to the red dot where I cast BP on some monsters. Then I teleported to the upmost corner (above the orange dot) and then on the position of the orange dot spotted a bosspack of specters hovering towards the red dot. I drew a line to find out where they came frome and marked that spot with a yellow cross.
I think that Bone Prison can indeed lure monsters as far away as the green line indicates however their AI needs to be 'activated' first. From what I know this mechanism is the same with attract and Bone Wall (and that can be cast without a target)
As it stands right now this mostly causes specters to hover over the abyss and it doesn't do what I wanted it to do: Lure specters from the northern wing to the rightmost platform of the western wing. (North = upper right corner of the screen, West = upper left corner)
The run would have been this: Teleport to the red spot and cast BP and then do a lap. Upon returning to the red spot you would find a nice clump of specters from the northern wing to finish with.
---
There must be some order of doing things and a spot to cast BP to make this useful. Especially for Necros who can BW wherever they want. For example a necro could try to do this on a map like this:
View attachment 13441
Cast BW on the red spot and then do a lap to activate specters in the W and S wing. By the time you return to the middle some of the specters from the W should have made it there and you can cast Attract on them. Then you do the second lap to activate specters in the N and E wing and return to the middle to kill the first two batches of specters creating corpses for the arrival of the specters from the other wings.
This map has only two 'bridges' between corners of wings. I have never cared about those so I don't know wether it is possible to get three or four allowing for a full 'lap' without returning to the middle. However that is probably unavoidable as BW only lasts 24 seconds. (Same for BP. Attract has its length quartered in Hell so 24 is reasonable if you invest 20 points into it)
Necro can't use Bone spells for damage as specters have 50% magic resist and merc is basically useless against them so the first kill would have to come from poison and then CE until the middle is clear.
---
I just made a sorc for this. I'm going to be very tilted if necro somehow becomes the most efficient at it
sir_cyclops
Active member
@art_vandelay im loving this theory crafting