Mafia Game: Cheers/Frasier Theme

can we lynch OMG today as well for the love of god.

coju
nulio
frozzzen
pancakeman
MartinLong
Jcakes
noodle
pyro
moar
Solar ice

are all yet to cast a vote2

more than a few scum suspects in there

You do realise that we are only 12 hours into the day and it happens to be a weekend. I haven't had a chance to read this thread let alone vote. In addition you only voted an hour or so before that post? Interesting, I think you might be top of my scum list.
When I have a chance and my head is not throbbing (damn headache), I will have to have a look through your posts.

On Goryani: It appears he is already locked (12 hours into the day .....). I do think we need to lynch him, I do however find it funny how quick people are to trust ML, especially given he was locked yesterday and somehow avoided it. I still think we should lynch him, but it doesn't make me easy how quick the lynch train closed on him. It will be interesting to see how he flips.

On OMG, I still think the same as I did yesterday.

Vote 2: omgwtfbbqpwn


 
Okay, I didn't know that. I've yet to have the chance of being a cop and receiving results myself.

MartinLong, are you able to tell us what words were used to describe the result?
anti-town, guilty, etc?
This is something I pmd thy about, w/o response. My roles says I should get the alignment of town, neutral, antitown. Yet these two investigations turned up friend and foe. I'm assuming that bc I was given 3 possible answers to my investigations a neutral should still show as neutral (as to be the third possible outcome)

Vote 2: omgwtfbbqpwned


 
Can you describe to us how omg was doing more scumhunting than anyone? He was suspicious of Noodle, and yet every one of his posts were about his role but one and the post where he votes. That doesn't justify him being around when we lost nothing by lynching him, especially as late in the day as you came in and failed to act!

So you just described Autti as having only talked about voting and omg and you can't think of anyone who omg was doing more scumhunting than? While I'll agree that most of his posts were about his role, he did have some analysis of Laarz, Malevolent, Noodle and kestegs(p177 and p209). If he'd have had more such posts past the point I departed and we had lynched one mafia, I'd have no problem keeping him around longer.

coju votes kestegs first without a reason(p155) and then claims his reason is that because kestegs called omg a godfather, he was trying to get him investigated(p166). That sounds like complete nonsense to me. (p286) is bantering between kestegs and MartinLong, and mentions pcm being linked to kestegs. He fails to give much reasoning when switching to ML(p384). (p385,424,434) Comments on voting and vaguely on why he's not voting omg. I'd only call his participation equal to omg.

flubbucket (p185,187,269) posts on Noodle, (p317) a little Question to ML, alot of roleplaying, no voting that I remember.
Omg a little better than him.

frozzzen (p183) Question to coju/goryani on why kestegs. (p342) likes Goryani's point about kestegs, votes ML, seems to give vague flips will give info reason.
Omg Better than him.

Gwaihir (p204,p206) omg discussion and vote. (p235,243) Some questions toward ML. (p253) A question toward Noodle on what he thought vote 2 would be for. (p350) Repeats the same questions posed by Solar Ice two posts up, time stamps are at least 30 mins apart. (p403,405,406,408,415) A lot of talk on why you should roleclaim as town. (p431) Banter with Moar and kestegs and a question to Solar if his suspicion of goryani was gut feeling.
All in all, Gwaihir's scumhunting was about equal to omg.

Jcakes (p157) ask for reasoning of coju's vote. (p179) votes omg, points out one of kestegs posts as being LAMIST.
(p202) Refutes flub 3 reasons on why Noodle would be scum. Say's flub does that everygame to FoE's post, and agrees with Goryani's theory vs pcm from (p191). (p277) A no order scum list- Kegs, nulio, ML, Mal; then revotes omg. (p320) Becomes the third person to ask if Noodle had a guilty conscience. Makes a bunch of analysis on ML and then votes.
Maybe a little ahead of omg. Its close, most of Jcakes scumhunting is directed toward already popular targets.

Laarz(p174,p213) Discusses omg and then votes omg. (p357) picks up ML badge comment. (p369) When ML says its just a synonym for "throwing in the towel", claims it might have been a last ditch effort to not get lynched and votes ML.
I'd say omg has done more here. Though I've got to give Laarz credit for finding the badge comment, as it seemed to lead to ML saying more later on about his role.

Loz(p231) V1/V2 stuff and not wanting to lynch Noodle for posting more. (p255) Agrees with Moar's post and says he's willing to vote omg. (p374) Agrees with Solar, seems to like a kestegs vote but that ML would be a better test because of leads though isn't descriptive on how. Points out Noodle's vote 2 as not counting(no space between vote and 2), though Thyiad ends up counting it anyways. Then votes V1 ML and V2 omg.
Really not too much input for Loz, I'd say omg has the lead here.

Malevolent(p188) Some about Noodle, (p245,246) votes ML, talks about omg. (p301) kestegs odd like a politician in answers, ML#1 scum, more on omg. (p419) comments on wanting to see who votes Moar. (p430) Discussion with Moar on her lynch not being guaranteed.
Not too much early for Mal, but does a little more late. Either equal or a little ahead of omg.

Noodle(p156) Postman idea, (p199) Response vs flub of how SK is not more likely a revealed postman (p210) Mistakes FoE's post on flub for himself and responds (p362) Has a slightly invalid vote on omg that is counted by Thyiad.
I'd say omg certainly has the lead here.

nulio Roleplaying posts
again easy lead for omg

pcm (p178) about omg, (p241) some response to goryani's theory vs him. Talks about's flubs breadcrumb/rp and speculation on who mafia is. p(291) not sold on kestegs yet, still wants his Mal vote, agrees on with Martin on nulio, wants to know about bartender role. (p297) still concerned vs nulio p(302-3) talks about three bartenders of Cheers. (p371) cites the need for lynches this game vs some other sp game, Prefers Mal but thinks with Moar's there's a good chance of scum ML and votes ML.
About equal to omg. He really seems interested in the bartender. Though I'd think the scum would have talked about rolefishing in their QT after Mal from the first day. He was absent the first day, did he not check there before posting?

TL,DR;

I'd say omg was better than Autti, flubbucket, frozzzen, Laarz, Loz, Noodle and nulio. And equal or close to equal with coju, Gwaihir, Jcakes, Malevolent, pcm and me. Thirteen out of twenty two players. CG and Pyro I'd rank as just a little bit ahead of the last group.

---
And now to try to catch up with what has been posted today.



 
Vote 1: Goryani

As explained above, because of an investigation result from a story-consistent investigator.

Vote 2: omgwtfbbqpwned

Well don't I look silly, making a post about voting rules yesterday and then not doing it myself. I'll correct the Goryani vote once I'm sure its not the lock vote. As discussion can tend to die down after that happens.



 
Goryani is already locked.
 
Uraj: just wanted till see yours and coju's reactions. You went through an awful lot of work to justify your reasoning. A lot of work. Too much work... I believe your reasoning.

I also have faith ML is what he says he is. I don't think he is insane because it took gory a very long time to think of that.
 
Post 203. You said your list matched Solar's, which was kestegs, Noodle, ML and Malevolent. Post 308's line about not being happier with the other candidates I took to interpret as you still thought them scum just not as scum as Mal. In 310, you specifically said "not much happier" with the non-Mal candidates, which most definitely implies you still think them scummy. The closest you come to defending MartinLong is when you say I'm being nit-picky about my reasons for questioning and voting him (433).

While that post didn't specifically state you thought ML was scum, your previous posts certainly gave that impression. But most importantly, never did you say you were against a MartinLong lynch until AFTER his claim.

Oh, okay, I see now. Let me clarify a little.
I wasn't very happy with the Mal lynch, so "being not much happier" about the other candidates to me didn't read as "I think they are a little scummy". I did say later (after solar) that I think our best bets were going for someone lurky, and that going for the people who get all the heat D1 never seems fruitful. This is why I wasn't very sold on any of these lynches.
Bingo. Mafia, absolutely, positively, wants to lynch someone using the vote 2 mechanic. They will say they are lynching the SK. They will say they are lynching mafia. They will say anything to get it done.

Ask yourself: If a townie actually thought omg was a SK, why wouldn't they make a case and vote 1 just to get rid of the SK?

I think OMG is SK, and if we can't get a vote 2 on him then I will be placing my vote 1 on him (depending on other investigations, of course)

I'm getting lynched today. I can't save myself. Even if someone can save me, they shouldn't. FAR too many questions left unanswered. My only way to help the town is to identify scum before I die. My poking and prodding is less useful if I blurt out my role and info for scum to glean answers from.

Maybe I should be more specific. If you AREN'T scum then why would you not tell us immediately so we can all gather our thoughts on who is more likely to be lying (or both honest, because of bussing or something). You suggested that he may not be a sane cop (or at least that we should all keep that possibility in mind), yes if you weren't scum you could really show that possibility immediately by claiming your alignment (not necessarily role, ofc).

I don't see how not claiming your alignment after all of this can help scum during this day phase, and by the time your lynch happens, everyone will know the information you're "hiding" so dearly.

It's easy to say "I'm helping the scum hunt the best I can given that I'm going to be lynched by poking and prodding", but in actuality this is the first of two options as a a guilty verdict.

1. You're scum and you're throwing your finger around everywhere to distract people from the real information, such as your post last night about scum not voting for their own team this early.
2. Don't say anything


 
MartinLong, are you able to tell us what words were used to describe the result?
anti-town, guilty, etc?

Why are you so interested in the mechanics of how his role works?

What struck me odd, is how everyone accepted Martin's claim as set in stone. I for one don't trust him. At all.

<snip>

Martin, you look scum in my book that set everything up (with help of moar, I'm not really sure, would need to observe your convo more) until someone claims pro town lynch preventer (what I don't think would happen and probably shouldn't considering role can be used to greater success if it's not only one/limited use per game).

This is one of the scummiest posts I have read all day. In the span of four paragraphs you manage to try to discredit a claimed cop, call into question anyone voting for someone with a guilty result on them, then subtly hint that if lawyer type role exists he should come forward to confirm the cop.

Just... wow.

But this is my favourite part, and it deserves it's own special quote:

To me this all chain of events looked like Martin was pretty sure he would get killed (and prevented) so he used Cop claim as lovely way to stay in game longer. And considering Martin drew some attention on himself it wouldn't be out of window for scum to pull something like that.

So, you're suggesting that Martin fake claims cop, knowing full well that he'll survive the lynch, but then busses the hell out of one of his team mates? Because if Goryani doesn't flip as mafia, Martin is going to have a lot of explaining to do tomorrow. If he were mafia fake claiming it would have been better to fake an innocent result.

It's fine that you don't trust Martin. You shouldn't trust anyone up until the moderator flips their role. But to try to create confusion and cast doubt on something that is easily tested via a lynch is just... well, scummy.

And I think we will deal with omg today, at least on my part (in retrospect I probably should have voted yesterday for omg and not sticking to my logic but I didn't imagine there would be so much possible V#2 candidates today).

Oh, thanks for your permission to proceed with the lynch that the rest of the town had yesterday decided was necessary. Did you all decide that omg wasn't that useful to your win condition after all?

I think there is NO WAY omg gets lynched without mafia being willing participants. If it's what they want, I don't want it.

How very black and white of you.

Additionally, I'd like to hear from the seven people who decided to not cast a Vote 2 on omgwtfbbqpwned. These people include:
[STRIKE]Goryani[/STRIKE] <~~ Spite the mafia.
[STRIKE]Malevolent[/STRIKE] <~~ A misplaced vote.
[STRIKE]frozzzen[/STRIKE] <~~ Semi-answered, but also felt like he was avoiding the question.
nulio <~~ Has not posted.
flubbucket <~~ Has not answered. Has posted.
[STRIKE]coju[/STRIKE] <~~ Partly wanted him to work for town, partly felt bad for voting someone active using vote 2.
[STRIKE]Uraj[/STRIKE] <~~ Wanted him to work for town.

I am not willing to believe Goryani's reasoning. I think it makes him look like scum trying to not look scummy.

I am willing to believe Malevolent's misplaced vote. It was placed early on before the whole debacle of voting rules came around, and could have easily slipped his mind to recast it.

frozzzen I covered earlier.

I find it slightly strange that frozzzen, Uraj and flubbucket all have similar reasoning for leaving omg alive yesterday, but now are willing to vote him out today.

Speaking of flubbucket: I like how you avoided the question entirely and just decided to go with the flow. Realized that working against the town's interests was not the most conducive path to staying under the radar?

Lastly, coju's reasoning makes sense from a personal point of view, but not one I agree with. The person who created the light-hearted game put in the tools to use to hunt, find, and lynch scum. Why are you opposed to using those tools?



 
@CG, I am interested simply because I have no experience with this, and can't say I've ever thought about it specifically. Though, Gory did tell me that it varies. I thought it important to know for the town so that if it always just says "guilty" or something like that, then we distinguish between SK and mafia, if need be in the future. (In the case of an investigation being bused this could prove extremely important, I think)
 
In the span of four paragraphs you manage to try to discredit a claimed cop, call into question anyone voting for someone with a guilty result on them, then subtly hint that if lawyer type role exists he should come forward to confirm the cop.

No CG, I didn't try to discredit him. I just wanted to state how iffy his claim was really iffy. Much more then my post methinks. I have seen cases where lynching scum fails (iirc it was Leopold Stotch in one community game where she went all crazy, forced lynched and survived) and just look at his claim:
1. after lock
2. does not want to share info
3. didn't even inspect himself first night so we don't even know if he is sane, insane, random or real cop
4. claimed cop after Laarz asked him if it's time to claim Cop - considering real cop is dead it wouldn't be bad idea for scum to claim cop and live couple more days
5. all above and more

Subtly hinting lawyer type role is also just weak attempt to put another stain on me cause I said it would be better for that person not to come out due to its potential usefulness. Nothing to see, go on.

Call into question anyone voting for someone with a guilty result on them? Seriously? Where. Quote me, find that statement. I think it would be best course of action to lynch Gory today cause:
- if we get mafia, great
- if we get town/neutral - martin is scum or flavor cop (from here we can move on to determine where and how to proceed)

If he were mafia fake claiming it would have been better to fake an innocent result.
You know, I never pictured this scenario. Will think about it a bit and see what I can think of.

Regarding OMG. He seemed more useful then some posters here (see Uraj 544 post) so I was thinking it would be good addition to town. He did his share of scum hunting so it wasn't bad, but as Martin lynch failed, and we still don't know what he is (at the time I voted for OMG I had pretty good feeling he is scum, but your quote just above shook up that clear perception of him as scum) so I was thinking if Gory gets out neutral or town, we can easily take Martin down with vote 2. That was my opinion on this matter earlier in the day.
But now I wanted to lynch OMG cause we need to free that Vote 2 for next day. Add in nulio that has heavy RP or post restriction + low game participation or whatever... we need that vote 2 to sweep scan lurkers. Not necessary for lynch, but exposing them to vote 2 scenario might put them a bit more into spotlight to participate more in game.

I knew that voicing my opinion about Martin would put me in spotlight, but my meta isn't for lurking and as long as I think I should warn everyone of his...weird(?) play I?ll do it in spite of it taking some heat on to me.

And last, your feeling of me dodging questions is off, as no questions have been directed at me. Only thing worth mentioning is Autti questioning why I didn't vote for OMG today (and I did) so I didn't feel obligated to respond.
 
Now that I've taken care of that, I think we should clear up something. The discussion over ML's cop claim seems to have been leaning toward him being proven to be a cop. While there is clearly some reason to trust him, there is also just as much reason to distrust him. I'm not saying this because I think him to be scum, but because I don't see any reason for those who are suspicious of him because they are suspicious of everybody being lynched for this wariness. So to treat a distrust of ML as a scum tell is silly and dangerous. Like some have said already, he walked away from a lynch without any explanation.

I'm not at all saying we should lynch ML, not today and with what he have now, anyway. I think Gory is a good lynch, and were it not redundant I would cast my vote for him right now. I have already explained why omg needs to go, and I haven't really seen much else that I think is a surefire scum tell. Some generally scummy behavior coming off of Solar, he has come out swinging against virtually everyone, but I've only had one game with him so that might be his normal behavior. Mal is awfully quiet, I'd be interested to see more from him. And frozzzen is definitely tripping some alarms, but I am certainly not the first to notice that.

Just in case:
Vote 1: Goryani
 
See frozzen's post above for some very good reasons not to trust ML. The only one that confuses me is number 3, about investigating himself. Is that normal cop behavior? I do not have the most experience in these things.
 
See frozzen's post above for some very good reasons not to trust ML. The only one that confuses me is number 3, about investigating himself. Is that normal cop behavior? I do not have the most experience in these things.

In the SP game several people said it was NOT common behaviour to investigate yourself.
Statistically, I think the most sensible thing to do is never investigate yourself, as from the lynches you obtain you can determine whether or not you are sane. 1 read on self = 1 less read on another player, meaning an extra day of waiting before you investigate someone scummy.


 
All right, let's get the important question out in the open:

MartinLong; do you know how you avoided the lynch?

Probably one of the more important questions of the day, although since Martin says he doesn't know we wouldn't want to expose who did it unless it was only a one shot and they have no other abilities.

Two nights, two deaths. This would confirm that mafia has two kills a night and those theories about the post man taking out someone is false.

Vote 1: Goryani

How are you so sure that the mafia has two night kills, a SK seems like a more valid explanation but I guess it could be possible.

I'm thinking something a little less superstitious, such as a Treestump. AKA, the guy who won't/can't vote.


Fair enough. I just wanted to make sure it wasn't some part of your role claim that you conveniently failed to mention.

Claimed cop with a guilty, no-vote 2 on the claimed non-town, and one of the people calling for his lynch yesterday dead this morning. That's more than enough to justify a vote on Gory.

Oh, and re-voting on omg, because nothing has changed since yesterday.

Vote 1: Goryani

Vote 2: omgwtfbbqpwned

If he actaully is the cop then having a lynch proof on top of that seems vastly overpowered, it wouldn't make sense. So either he is a cop and someone else stopped the lynch, hes not the cop and someone else stopped the lynch, or hes not the cop and he stopped the lynch. Nothing is certain until Goryani flips.

I believe that Autti is scum. Here is activity since the end of day 1. He has done nothing but talk about omg and the Vote 2 mechanism and voting in general. While he did vote for OMG with his vote 2, he clearly explained day 1 he would do that if he were mafia.

Auttis activity is very interesting and as you stated not very focused on scum hunting it seems. Something to keep a watch on for sure.

What the ****. Seriously. This is TWICE in just a few games that someone accuses me of losing the game for the town ON THE FIRST ****ING DAY. I've no doubt that your alignment will be the same as the previous one. Game on.

I don't think anyone said you lost the game for the town, just that you don't have your normal analytical style and long winded posts with questions going out to everyone that you normally have on Day1. If you didn't have more analytical thoughts in a couple day phases then I would be more suspsicious but a "guilty" cop result is hard to ignore, and if aren't actually scum then MartinLong is going to have a lot of questions tomorrow.

Okay, this is not going well. We need to get on top of this, and we need to do it fast. I agree with Cal, I think first priority should be sorting out the missed lynching of omg. That should start with some answers. I understand there were reservations, but we had a chance for two lynches and instead we got none.
Secondly, we need to find out how ML avoided that lynch, and whether he did it or someone did it for him. mafiascum says Jailkeeper can block any form of kill, but our Jailkeeper (Fred) didn't seem very sympathetic to ML, so I can't see why he would protect him. So if anyone knows any role that can explain this?
I think we also need to examine those that were attacking kesty so vigorously, too. Not necessarily those who were suspicious, but those that were sure.
Finally, there is what ML said about the postman theory being wrong. Do we take this to mean the postman is that second possibility, the sending a message and getting one back thing? Furthermore, it means we have a second kill, and there are few things that can do that, and do it consistently. I think we need to strongly consider the possibility of a SK. It does seem a bit strange that this SK, if there is one, has nailed two townies in two night, possibly even two power roles, but it is always possible that that is pure luck or that this game is full of power roles.

If I had to guess at the identity of an SK now, without any real discussion on it, I'd have to point at omg. His purely neutral story is a nice distraction, causing us all to argue over whether he should be lynched or not instead of whether he is telling the truth or not. Furthermore, investigation from our (now fallen) Cop would simply say neutral, which would serve to back up his story. And he knows good and well that if we didn't Vote2 lynch him at first chance we won't be able to, and we will be too focused on hunting scum to V1 lynch him, so he is relatively safe as long as he lays low. Basically, it boils down to the old "hiding in plain sight" cliche.

So, I think at this point we string up omg at all cost. Even if he isn't an SK or some similar town-killer, he is the only person we know for sure to be non-town, and with 4 down we have to lynch someone.

Bolded portion above, yes we need to find out, but if someone else did it for him then it would be very representative of the laywer role in the last game and we would not want to out that person and his ability at this point because we don't want to risk another power role. Its best if whoever may have this ability keep that to themselves for the time.

I just assumed SK would show as neutral, because they aren't town or mafia. I admit that I don't actually know for sure, though.

Has anyone else ever witnessed this happening before? If no one knows for sure, is there reason to believe any different?

I know in a very recent game that the investigation on the SK came up Unknown, not antitown or neutral so it would depend on the mod.

Too much to read atm, but let me address this.

You should never take precedence of a previous game too much into account. Each game is different, although you can draw patterns that a single player seems to exhibit from one game to the next. Otherwise strategically, I would be one of the first to go every D1 for the random lynch. :smug: A fact I am actually quite proud of.

Second, I was made useless only because of circumstance. I would have killed a mafia had Bad Ash chosen any other day to use his global block. I also saved you from a roleblock N4, which did lead to my death.

Third, I was lynched before I could actually reveal anything. You guys knew what I could be, you guys knew I was silenced and unable to defend myself, yet you went along with the lynch.

Fourth, I'm actually being quite supportive of the town this game. I've helped scumhunt a lot more than most players. I'm not sure how I could directly get a townie killed this game. :crazyeyes:

Now back to reading the last 20 pages. No doubt littered with more SK/VI/Mafia theories, but I shall enjoy reading them nonetheless.

And before I make my pitstop for the night, I can't remember if it was Pyro, Laarz, or thefranklin who was all uptight about it, but here goes nothing:

My wincon brings all the boys to the yard, and they're like, it's better than yours, damn right, it's better than yours, I can teach you, but I have to charge. Wincon wincon wincon wincon wincon wincon wincon. Me me me me me me me. :tongue:

I was the one that was all uptight about it and you told me off, so I'm not sure why that would make me any more sympathetic toward you?

My point about vote2, which has seemingly come true is this.

The whole of town cannot vote 2 someone without the help of neutrals and mafia.

If someone is very scummy, or anti town, and we (town) already have a vote 1 candidate we will vote 2 him. This means that either mafia will lynch their own, or neutrals will be lynched by mafia.

Either way, anti town players will have to help because of the lynch.

Because of that, those players who don't vote2 are most likely to be scum, as they are stopping town from voting on of their scum buddies.

This is what i tried to explain earlier, in that vote2 is useful in determining voting behavior, and a good scum test.

Needless to say, my theory worked because these are the people who didn't vote2:
Goryani
Malevolent
frozzzen
nulio
flubbucket
coju
Uraj

Surprise, surprise, they are quite scummy.

The question is if mafia would use a vote 2 to not look scummy or they would just let it slide to save one of their own? How confident are you in your theory? (Not that I disagree with the possibility)


 
Well, the thing is on first night you check yourself. If you end up scum then there is something clearly not ok with you and you assume you are insane cop (I think he gets reversed roles, not sure about terminology). There are other flavors such as naive cop (everyone town) or paranoid cop (everyone scum) but I count them out as ML got both town and scum reads.
Reason to check it first night is cause there isn't any targets that are more valid then others.

And regarding checking yourself vs not checking yourself - cop should try not to check people that everyone sees as scum, but rather those that are controlling flow of game, so not many of your investigations go to grave with next night. At least that's my view on this matter so if I were cop I'd check myself first night for sure.
 
Maybe I should be more specific. If you AREN'T scum then why would you not tell us immediately so we can all gather our thoughts on who is more likely to be lying (or both honest, because of bussing or something). You suggested that he may not be a sane cop (or at least that we should all keep that possibility in mind), yes if you weren't scum you could really show that possibility immediately by claiming your alignment (not necessarily role, ofc).
I'm locked and can't avoid that. My lynch shouldn't be avoided even if it could. Determining my honesty before the end of the day can't happen without exposing another power role. I don't want that to happen. There are over 30 hours left in the day. I see no need to rush things.



 
Diablo 4 Interactive Map
PurePremium
Estimated market value
Low
High