The PvP Thread
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@Gripphon very nice Necro spam, 9/10. Clean and aesthetically pleasing. 
My Necro spam is chaotic and ugly. 6/10 at most, probably less. Still featured in this funny TvT comeback, alongside forgetting to re-BO and somehow surviving several whirls by the boogeyman.
Think I'll go Necro again later. Yesterday I was sometimes sloppy, making mistakes that by now I thought I shouldn't be making anymore. Need to properly git gud.
My Necro spam is chaotic and ugly. 6/10 at most, probably less. Still featured in this funny TvT comeback, alongside forgetting to re-BO and somehow surviving several whirls by the boogeyman.
Think I'll go Necro again later. Yesterday I was sometimes sloppy, making mistakes that by now I thought I shouldn't be making anymore. Need to properly git gud.
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Barb and Sin players: Couple of questions regarding WW chars, as I've been meaning to finalize Barb and Ghost at some point.
AR: What is a good target to aim for, on Barb and Ghost respectively? Do you use Demon Limb to boost it?
Ghost claws: Is Fury or Fools "main" second weapon? Are there specific matchups where one of them is a must?
Fools: How do you prioritize further mods apart from hitting IAS BP, meaining skills, sockets? I guess sockets are ideally Um'ed?
AR: What is a good target to aim for, on Barb and Ghost respectively? Do you use Demon Limb to boost it?
Ghost claws: Is Fury or Fools "main" second weapon? Are there specific matchups where one of them is a must?
Fools: How do you prioritize further mods apart from hitting IAS BP, meaining skills, sockets? I guess sockets are ideally Um'ed?
I rarely if ever use Fury, but in theory it should give better results once you get AR to sufficient level. As for what is that level, I don't know. I know @Gripphon did some math regarding this so he might give you some more concrete points.
WW attack rating is 4300 / 11300 on Chaos/Fool's respectively. No RF, ar/fcr ring or Demon Limb buff so that can be brought fair bit higher in theory. If I were to prebuff with Demon Limb I'd also use beta bramble to prebuff Venom while at it, and I really don't want to do it as of yet. Ghosts aren't good PvP chars but they can get by without prebuffing imo. Reason why I opt for Fool's is because you want high ar and "guaranteed" first ww check. With high enough ar it will connect, trigger fhr with help of Mindblast and then you get more hits in. I'm WSM bugging my claws (Suwayyah + RT) so you only need 20 IAS on RT to hit fastest trap laying speed (19 IAS really).
I'm really not sure about secondary mods so I use what I can. Nice fool's claws aren't really easy to come by. I'd say 50% OW is my main goal for claw to have alongside fastest trap laying speed. Ghosts don't have as high dmg output as BvC so you really want to trigger OW with any WW hit.
This isn't my claw, but I'm using something similar. 1.10a has Horadric Cube recipe that lets you get 3os on magic claws. 3os/fool's 'UmShaelUm' looks like great starter. With 20 IAS suffix you can use 3rd Um/nice jewel and with 40 IAS suffix you also ignore 10% slow from Arach when it comes to trap laying speed. And these claws are relatively easy to get (at least basic version). You can get one well before BKWB in that version.
WW attack rating is 4300 / 11300 on Chaos/Fool's respectively. No RF, ar/fcr ring or Demon Limb buff so that can be brought fair bit higher in theory. If I were to prebuff with Demon Limb I'd also use beta bramble to prebuff Venom while at it, and I really don't want to do it as of yet. Ghosts aren't good PvP chars but they can get by without prebuffing imo. Reason why I opt for Fool's is because you want high ar and "guaranteed" first ww check. With high enough ar it will connect, trigger fhr with help of Mindblast and then you get more hits in. I'm WSM bugging my claws (Suwayyah + RT) so you only need 20 IAS on RT to hit fastest trap laying speed (19 IAS really).
I'm really not sure about secondary mods so I use what I can. Nice fool's claws aren't really easy to come by. I'd say 50% OW is my main goal for claw to have alongside fastest trap laying speed. Ghosts don't have as high dmg output as BvC so you really want to trigger OW with any WW hit.
This isn't my claw, but I'm using something similar. 1.10a has Horadric Cube recipe that lets you get 3os on magic claws. 3os/fool's 'UmShaelUm' looks like great starter. With 20 IAS suffix you can use 3rd Um/nice jewel and with 40 IAS suffix you also ignore 10% slow from Arach when it comes to trap laying speed. And these claws are relatively easy to get (at least basic version). You can get one well before BKWB in that version.
Code:
Fool's Runic Talons
'UmShaelUm'
One-Hand Damage: 24 to 44
Durability: 53 of 69
(Assassin Only)
Required Dexterity: 115
Required Strength: 115
Required Level: 60
Claw Class - Fastest Attack Speed
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 30
Fingerprint: 0x6857564f
20% Increased Attack Speed
+1 to Mind Blast (Assassin Only)
+2 to Fade (Assassin Only)
50% Chance of Open Wounds
+0 to Maximum Damage (Based on Character Level)
+16 to Attack Rating (Based on Character Level)
Socketed (3: 3 used)
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@ffs
What I'll say now is only my point of view supported with some math behind it.
Optimal minimum to aim for is 7k AR. My barb so far used 5.9k AR without Limb. With Limb he has 7.5k AR. Is it worth it? Yes, it is, and I'll buff AR that way from now on.
Difference between 7k AR and 9k AR is very small in some practical sense. If we want to boost AR further while sacrificing some gear slots, then better option is to go Angelic and nail 11k+ range to actually make some mathematical difference against most opponents. Against opponents with 5k or more defense, Angelic is the best option if it doesn't sacrifice other important gear slots. Barb can do it, ghost only if she uses fcr on head slot.
With ghost we can reach 7k AR somewhat easily with Limb buff, mine would have around 9k with Chaos/Fury although I would argue it is better to go with 8k and boost mana instead to 900s. With such AR Fury is better option than fool's against low defense opponents for higher damage output and faster killing while fool's is better against high defense. Angelic is also an overkill for her.
All of those things being said, I have played hybrid sin with like 10k/3k AR and she did just fine. I have also played barb with like 5.5k AR before... Now how much stronger those characters become by using more AR is not something that is easy to answer. But, around 7k AR is the optimal minimum to aim for above which additional AR adds rather insignificant difference unless boosted in thousands.
What I'll say now is only my point of view supported with some math behind it.
Optimal minimum to aim for is 7k AR. My barb so far used 5.9k AR without Limb. With Limb he has 7.5k AR. Is it worth it? Yes, it is, and I'll buff AR that way from now on.
Difference between 7k AR and 9k AR is very small in some practical sense. If we want to boost AR further while sacrificing some gear slots, then better option is to go Angelic and nail 11k+ range to actually make some mathematical difference against most opponents. Against opponents with 5k or more defense, Angelic is the best option if it doesn't sacrifice other important gear slots. Barb can do it, ghost only if she uses fcr on head slot.
With ghost we can reach 7k AR somewhat easily with Limb buff, mine would have around 9k with Chaos/Fury although I would argue it is better to go with 8k and boost mana instead to 900s. With such AR Fury is better option than fool's against low defense opponents for higher damage output and faster killing while fool's is better against high defense. Angelic is also an overkill for her.
All of those things being said, I have played hybrid sin with like 10k/3k AR and she did just fine. I have also played barb with like 5.5k AR before... Now how much stronger those characters become by using more AR is not something that is easy to answer. But, around 7k AR is the optimal minimum to aim for above which additional AR adds rather insignificant difference unless boosted in thousands.
@Gripphon thanks, and glad to hear it because I had just landed on a Fury setup with 7.7k AR.
Ghost is more or less ready now, I'll try her a bit later.
Made two new toys in the process.
Finally got 2os from Larzuk on a circlet I cared about. Stuffed it with some resist, life and a bunch of AR:
While I was at it, most recent Ber was put to use as well, also considering possible use on FoH-based Paladins.
Ghost is more or less ready now, I'll try her a bit later.
Made two new toys in the process.
Finally got 2os from Larzuk on a circlet I cared about. Stuffed it with some resist, life and a bunch of AR:
While I was at it, most recent Ber was put to use as well, also considering possible use on FoH-based Paladins.
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- Apr 4, 2020
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Nice games, thanks everyone!
New chars T/V and Ghost were both fun, but at the same time they'll both take some getting used to. Ghost setup seemed fine, I managed to get her to 3.8/4.9k (Oak) life which appears to be enough. But I'll need to increase life on the the T/V Paladin for sure. When moving via Charge instead of teleporting, Oak is pretty useless and dies instantly from any random damage in the vicinity. Without it he was a bit too fragile. I'll go for some setup without Oak ring and higher "real" life on that character. But generally I liked the build a lot, interesting mind games having several entirely different attacks in the arsenal.
Heh, yeah especially in TvT games I somehow forget about the "don't get hit" part in the "don't get hit" game.
New chars T/V and Ghost were both fun, but at the same time they'll both take some getting used to. Ghost setup seemed fine, I managed to get her to 3.8/4.9k (Oak) life which appears to be enough. But I'll need to increase life on the the T/V Paladin for sure. When moving via Charge instead of teleporting, Oak is pretty useless and dies instantly from any random damage in the vicinity. Without it he was a bit too fragile. I'll go for some setup without Oak ring and higher "real" life on that character. But generally I liked the build a lot, interesting mind games having several entirely different attacks in the arsenal.
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@ffs
That pala did well, so many kills
I have a feeling FoH is only a minor addition to him being mostly charge/smite paladin. It certainly takes time to get used to his changing playing style going from casting into melee and vice versa. He is a good opponent to face, although unusually fragile compared to hammer variants mostly to being much harder to play.
Some more gameplay from tri-hybrid zon. Poison is doing its job, sometimes opponents first appear on my screen with barely any HP being infected by poison without me knowing about it. I think she is deadly to any non-teleporting character with exception of pala who could kill her with charge/smite. Many opponents are problematic to her, every class has a build she struggles against. She can kill everything and be killed by many. Overall enjoyable character to play.
For the next project I wanna give a chance to some non-teleporting character. Rabies druid maybe. Field is stacked with such characters, it is now or never to build one
That pala did well, so many kills
I have a feeling FoH is only a minor addition to him being mostly charge/smite paladin. It certainly takes time to get used to his changing playing style going from casting into melee and vice versa. He is a good opponent to face, although unusually fragile compared to hammer variants mostly to being much harder to play.
Some more gameplay from tri-hybrid zon. Poison is doing its job, sometimes opponents first appear on my screen with barely any HP being infected by poison without me knowing about it. I think she is deadly to any non-teleporting character with exception of pala who could kill her with charge/smite. Many opponents are problematic to her, every class has a build she struggles against. She can kill everything and be killed by many. Overall enjoyable character to play.
For the next project I wanna give a chance to some non-teleporting character. Rabies druid maybe. Field is stacked with such characters, it is now or never to build one
Pyro was asking about melee fights yesterday. If a melee crowd like that assembles next time I can ofc join the fun with hybrid Paladin.For the next project I wanna give a chance to some non-teleporting character. Rabies druid maybe. Field is stacked with such characters, it is now or never to build one
Yeah, I will do something to boost his life pool a bit. Around 4k without Oak or close to that should be possible with a reasonable setup. Sacrificing other things of course, but should be worth it. I'm still figuring out the proper mix and situational use of FoH/charge/smite. Indeed, in the end the kills come from smite/charge. But I felt having solid FoH damage was very important. If FoH was no threat at all (like it was on my previous V/T build), any ranged opponents could ignore it and just try to kill him while keeping their distance.That pala did well, so many kills
I have a feeling FoH is only a minor addition to him being mostly charge/smite paladin. It certainly takes time to get used to his changing playing style going from casting into melee and vice versa. He is a good opponent to face, although unusually fragile compared to hammer variants mostly to being much harder to play.
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- Mar 24, 2020
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Decided to ask for some advice regarding my V/T paladin. He is lvl 86 atm and I'm going to lvl him up to 92-93 in the future but maybe you can see some room for improvement in his gear.
Charms:
Summery:
Guess I can change gloves and few charms, any suggestions? what about the weapon?
Thanks in advance guys.
Helm - shako + shael
Amulet - Mara 21@
Armor - CoH, for resists/DR/skills
Shield - HoZ + PDiamond
Weapon - Lacerator / Perfect Redeemer, for some reason I feel that I get better results with Lacerator
Belt - Verdungo 15% DR
Ring #1 - Raven
Boots - Sandstorm (15/13) / waterwalk (15) / Gores
Ring #2 (main ring) -
Ghoul Finger
Ring
Required Level: 47
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0x7cac33f5
+13 to Strength
+29 to Life
+115 to Attack Rating
Lightning Resist +6%
Cold Resist +22%
Replenish Life +9
Gloves -
Rune Hold
Vampirebone Gloves
Defense: 83
Durability: 14 of 14
Required Strength: 50
Required Level: 70
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 84
Fingerprint: 0xe8bde421
+13 to Dexterity
+17 to Life
+26% Enhanced Defense
2% Life stolen per hit
3% Mana stolen per hit
20% Increased Attack Speed
8% Chance of Crushing Blow
Amulet - Mara 21@
Armor - CoH, for resists/DR/skills
Shield - HoZ + PDiamond
Weapon - Lacerator / Perfect Redeemer, for some reason I feel that I get better results with Lacerator
Belt - Verdungo 15% DR
Ring #1 - Raven
Boots - Sandstorm (15/13) / waterwalk (15) / Gores
Ring #2 (main ring) -
Ghoul Finger
Ring
Required Level: 47
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 85
Fingerprint: 0x7cac33f5
+13 to Strength
+29 to Life
+115 to Attack Rating
Lightning Resist +6%
Cold Resist +22%
Replenish Life +9
Gloves -
Rune Hold
Vampirebone Gloves
Defense: 83
Durability: 14 of 14
Required Strength: 50
Required Level: 70
Item Version: 1.10+ Expansion
Item Level: 84
Fingerprint: 0xe8bde421
+13 to Dexterity
+17 to Life
+26% Enhanced Defense
2% Life stolen per hit
3% Mana stolen per hit
20% Increased Attack Speed
8% Chance of Crushing Blow
Charms:
3 x Lion Branded Grand Charm (7 str + 29hp)
3 x Serpent's Grand Charm of Sustenance
1 x 14@/40hp GC
2 x Steel Large Charm of Balance
2 x Ruby Large Charm of Balance
1 x 5@/2 str SC
5 x Resists/5 FHR SC
3 x Serpent's Grand Charm of Sustenance
1 x 14@/40hp GC
2 x Steel Large Charm of Balance
2 x Ruby Large Charm of Balance
1 x 5@/2 str SC
5 x Resists/5 FHR SC
Summery:
95 STR / 95 DEX
33% DR
~ 2800 hp / ~700 mana
87% FHR (without boots)
33% DR
~ 2800 hp / ~700 mana
87% FHR (without boots)
Guess I can change gloves and few charms, any suggestions? what about the weapon?
Thanks in advance guys.
@Miron
I noticed a lot of your gear has AR and FHR. Of course AR helps Charge but isn't needed at all for Smite and FoH. Could be an idea to replace AR charms with more life, because yours is very low... even lower than mine was yesterday, and I immediately decided to sacrifice some damage so that I can add some 700-800 HP. You seemed to like to go more melee with the build, so probably a good idea to add a whole bunch of life SCs with useful second mods.
FHR isn't that important IMO cause you can use Charge to get out of most things if need be. Could drop some FHR and add even more life or other useful stats (or Ber/Cham in Shako if you have one laying around). Sandstorm Treks are good mostly for FHR too, you could get more life from things like Aldur's, or Waterwalk if resists are nicely covered.
Weapons are tricky in vanilla. On paper I kinda like Redeemer, especially with perfect + damage roll for smiting. Problem is Redeemer needs a lot of IAS to hit 6 FPA Smite even with high level Fanaticism. Shael + IAS gloves will still be at 7 FPA Smite. In your setup, Lacerator is at least 1 frame faster, which may be part of the reason why you prefer it. Another thing to consider for FFA specifically is that Lacerator's Amp procs increase the damage of everyone, similar to LR on Poison Necro for other elemental builds.
Gloves are fine IMO because IAS is kinda needed on that slot with your current weapons.
Do you have Astreon's? Think that would probably be my weapon of choice for FoH/Smite builds in vanilla D2. If you don't have it I can send you one. I have several with sort of average rolls that I won't ever use.
I noticed a lot of your gear has AR and FHR. Of course AR helps Charge but isn't needed at all for Smite and FoH. Could be an idea to replace AR charms with more life, because yours is very low... even lower than mine was yesterday, and I immediately decided to sacrifice some damage so that I can add some 700-800 HP.
You seemed to like to go more melee with the build, so probably a good idea to add a whole bunch of life SCs with useful second mods. FHR isn't that important IMO cause you can use Charge to get out of most things if need be. Could drop some FHR and add even more life or other useful stats (or Ber/Cham in Shako if you have one laying around). Sandstorm Treks are good mostly for FHR too, you could get more life from things like Aldur's, or Waterwalk if resists are nicely covered.
Weapons are tricky in vanilla. On paper I kinda like Redeemer, especially with perfect + damage roll for smiting. Problem is Redeemer needs a lot of IAS to hit 6 FPA Smite even with high level Fanaticism. Shael + IAS gloves will still be at 7 FPA Smite. In your setup, Lacerator is at least 1 frame faster, which may be part of the reason why you prefer it. Another thing to consider for FFA specifically is that Lacerator's Amp procs increase the damage of everyone, similar to LR on Poison Necro for other elemental builds.
Gloves are fine IMO because IAS is kinda needed on that slot with your current weapons.
Do you have Astreon's? Think that would probably be my weapon of choice for FoH/Smite builds in vanilla D2. If you don't have it I can send you one. I have several with sort of average rolls that I won't ever use.
- Mar 24, 2020
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@ffs thanks for the reply.
I think I will need to reequip him a bit, is 48 fhr will be enough?
I will look for better gloves, some resists can free some charms, I need some stats on equipment to free stat points for vit and equip Lacerator and upped HoZ.
I was sure I had Asteron, will have to look a bit more.
I think I will need to reequip him a bit, is 48 fhr will be enough?
I will look for better gloves, some resists can free some charms, I need some stats on equipment to free stat points for vit and equip Lacerator and upped HoZ.
I was sure I had Asteron, will have to look a bit more.
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@Miron
Have you considered rebuilding him into hammer variant of a paladin? Because whatever melee you try in vanilla, without hammers he will be very weak because your gear options are too limited, not having anything comparable to Grief. Liberator has much more promise to work well, with Enigma of course.
What about BotD? Smite will be weak, but at least charge will be strong.
Overall 48 fhr is enough for paladin.
Have you considered rebuilding him into hammer variant of a paladin? Because whatever melee you try in vanilla, without hammers he will be very weak because your gear options are too limited, not having anything comparable to Grief. Liberator has much more promise to work well, with Enigma of course.
What about BotD? Smite will be weak, but at least charge will be strong.
Overall 48 fhr is enough for paladin.
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@Miron
I agree with everything ffs has written about it. The top priority in general to make a properly functional paladin (or assassin) is to get close to or even over 3.5k life without Oak active. Without that you will simply die too quickly regardless what the rest of the gear looks like. You should be able to get to 3.5k life or close to it.
Then, another priority is to also have absorb handy in a form of Wisp. It also provides Oak for more life regardless is it useful all the time or not, absorb is there anyway.
Overall to aim for in order of priorities:
3.5k life if possible without Oak active, below 3k is way too low <-- the top priority
Strong charge weapon
30+% DR
Wisp option + Oak
6 frames Smite (7 works just fine, charge is what is killing usually)
Reasonable FoH damage
48 FHR --> could work with less even
I agree with everything ffs has written about it. The top priority in general to make a properly functional paladin (or assassin) is to get close to or even over 3.5k life without Oak active. Without that you will simply die too quickly regardless what the rest of the gear looks like. You should be able to get to 3.5k life or close to it.
Then, another priority is to also have absorb handy in a form of Wisp. It also provides Oak for more life regardless is it useful all the time or not, absorb is there anyway.
Overall to aim for in order of priorities:
3.5k life if possible without Oak active, below 3k is way too low <-- the top priority
Strong charge weapon
30+% DR
Wisp option + Oak
6 frames Smite (7 works just fine, charge is what is killing usually)
Reasonable FoH damage
48 FHR --> could work with less even
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