The PvP Thread
- Thread starter nulio
- Start date
Fun fights indeed! It's a nice matchup. I felt offense and defense can quickly switch back and forth depending on Druid minion stack and Sorc mana pool... or at least I thought so... From the vid it's evident my pressure on your recast game was rather laughable. 
@Miron when I was playing with Trapper I was rather scared of you tbh! OW bane of my existence. At least given I'm still occasionally just too stubborn to move away. Although as per Gripphon's recommendation I'll try to get my own Ghost ready next, but kinda want to get 1-2 levels on that Sin before I respec...
Games today? Dinner plans now, but I think I should be able to join around 21h CET or soon after.
Although as per Gripphon's recommendation I'll try to get my own Ghost ready next, but kinda want to get 1-2 levels on that Sin before I respec...Games today? Dinner plans now, but I think I should be able to join around 21h CET or soon after.
- Apr 4, 2020
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Good games, everyone!
Man how strong liberator is, practically has no real weaknesses. Beast of a character. Actually those hammer paladins are all freaking strong, even with 900 damage hammers. They are MUCH more influential than bone necros, maybe even trappers. You can't relax for a second, one mistake might mean death. There are very few characters who can fight without running away the whole match, you can't really properly attack liberator and not risk getting killed quickly.
I grew to like javazon. Funny, I never liked her in PvM, but in PvP different story.
She is completely different story than BvC and liberator. She usually runs away and waits for an opportunity to attack. Very nice contrast in playing styles.
Man how strong liberator is, practically has no real weaknesses. Beast of a character. Actually those hammer paladins are all freaking strong, even with 900 damage hammers. They are MUCH more influential than bone necros, maybe even trappers. You can't relax for a second, one mistake might mean death. There are very few characters who can fight without running away the whole match, you can't really properly attack liberator and not risk getting killed quickly.
I grew to like javazon. Funny, I never liked her in PvM, but in PvP different story.
She is completely different story than BvC and liberator. She usually runs away and waits for an opportunity to attack. Very nice contrast in playing styles.
I wonder if it's mostly due to hammer side or charge. My money would be on hammer tbh.
Ghost honestly felt so weak it's crazy compared to *proper* characters. Will take a metric ton of effort to do anything worthwhile with her. I think I need to make some changes to her stuff to make her a bit better, least of all the pilot >_>
Ghost honestly felt so weak it's crazy compared to *proper* characters. Will take a metric ton of effort to do anything worthwhile with her. I think I need to make some changes to her stuff to make her a bit better, least of all the pilot >_>
- Apr 4, 2020
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You are used to 2 hit kills, 7k life, max block and stacked resistances. Whatever else you take, minus trapper, will feel weak. I felt like a superman with 900 hammer damage liberator. Give yourself a chance to get used to a more vulnerable characters.
I'll give Ghost a try tonight. 100% sober.
Hoping more people will join, new guys and veterans alike! @nulio @d2lover @art_vandelay waddup, also where has @Delsy been lately?
So now I've tried a handful of the mainstream PvP builds over the last couple of weeks. Here's my impression as to the beginner-friendliness based on at least a couple of hours with each, and specifically from my personal noob perspective. Figured maybe reading about such beginner experiences is helpful to others who are thinking about joining the fun!
Hammerdin:
LS Trapper:
Bone Necro:
FB/ES Sorc:
Windy:
BvC/BvA & other melee
Hoping more people will join, new guys and veterans alike! @nulio @d2lover @art_vandelay waddup, also where has @Delsy been lately?
So now I've tried a handful of the mainstream PvP builds over the last couple of weeks. Here's my impression as to the beginner-friendliness based on at least a couple of hours with each, and specifically from my personal noob perspective.
Figured maybe reading about such beginner experiences is helpful to others who are thinking about joining the fun!Hammerdin:
Pro:
Very easy to pick up and straight-forward gameplay. Survives very well, no fancy gear required, simple gameplay. Being tanky I usually wasn't afraid to stomp. Even just creating hammer fields in various places is already annoying for others, in particular in FFA. Finishing off oppponents can require some gamble/prediction on where your opponent is running (because they expect the direct stomp), but not overly difficult either tbh.
Con:
I felt he's not great for actually learning/improving PvP skills... You can ofc grab namelocks but it's not as vital as for other builds that really depend on it. (With hammers it seemed to me it can actually be beneficial to add an element of randomness by not always stomping right on top of enemies.)
Very easy to pick up and straight-forward gameplay. Survives very well, no fancy gear required, simple gameplay. Being tanky I usually wasn't afraid to stomp. Even just creating hammer fields in various places is already annoying for others, in particular in FFA. Finishing off oppponents can require some gamble/prediction on where your opponent is running (because they expect the direct stomp), but not overly difficult either tbh.
Con:
I felt he's not great for actually learning/improving PvP skills... You can ofc grab namelocks but it's not as vital as for other builds that really depend on it. (With hammers it seemed to me it can actually be beneficial to add an element of randomness by not always stomping right on top of enemies.)
LS Trapper:
Pro:
Similar to Hdin: Real cheapo, braindead gameplay can work surpringly well. Laying traps, spamming mindblast, and teleporting away when people close in is actually a "strategy".
Basically I felt that what Hammerdin and Trapper have in common is they can easily create problems for others, requiring some effort on opponents' sides to deal with them.... while Trapper/Hdin have to put very little effort into creating those problems.
Con:
Again similar to Hammerdin, not as high of a learning curve as with other builds. Also not sure about gear and how that affects the experience (I have mediocre +4 LS claws but otherwise decent Assassin gear). Doesn't use many skills either, but I guess whether that's a con depends on personal preference.
Similar to Hdin: Real cheapo, braindead gameplay can work surpringly well. Laying traps, spamming mindblast, and teleporting away when people close in is actually a "strategy".
Basically I felt that what Hammerdin and Trapper have in common is they can easily create problems for others, requiring some effort on opponents' sides to deal with them.... while Trapper/Hdin have to put very little effort into creating those problems.
Con:
Again similar to Hammerdin, not as high of a learning curve as with other builds. Also not sure about gear and how that affects the experience (I have mediocre +4 LS claws but otherwise decent Assassin gear). Doesn't use many skills either, but I guess whether that's a con depends on personal preference.
Bone Necro:
Pro:
To me he seems the most suitable build to practice some PvP techniques. His offense really needs namelocks/chainlocks to be scary, and with every hour I played him I felt I actually learned and improved a little bit (however slightly). Definitely cannot say the same for every hour I played Hammerdin or Trapper. That being said, spamming projectiles can get a kill here or there as well, in particular those infamous invisible spirits.
Con:
Maybe a bit gear dependent. Don't know how I would have built him if I didn't have 2/20 ammy and good CoA. Uses many skills for caster standards, which took me some getting used to. Also one of the builds where I felt I really have to take care of recasting. While he can survive well enough he's overall not very tanky. Keeping up armor, golem & oak up really helps his survivability, but was a bit overwhelming in the beginning... there is so much to pay attention to when first getting into PvP. But once I started to keep those things up I survived better.
To me he seems the most suitable build to practice some PvP techniques. His offense really needs namelocks/chainlocks to be scary, and with every hour I played him I felt I actually learned and improved a little bit (however slightly
). Definitely cannot say the same for every hour I played Hammerdin or Trapper. That being said, spamming projectiles can get a kill here or there as well, in particular those infamous invisible spirits. Con:
Maybe a bit gear dependent. Don't know how I would have built him if I didn't have 2/20 ammy and good CoA. Uses many skills for caster standards, which took me some getting used to. Also one of the builds where I felt I really have to take care of recasting. While he can survive well enough he's overall not very tanky. Keeping up armor, golem & oak up really helps his survivability, but was a bit overwhelming in the beginning... there is so much to pay attention to when first getting into PvP. But once I started to keep those things up I survived better.
FB/ES Sorc:
Pro:
No fancy gear required, can work with basic Meph gear. Similar style as Necro, but much tankier (at the cost of a somewhat weaker offense that's a easier to deal with than Necro's). Fast mana replenish often means recovering from hits/mistakes that would mean a death sentence with other builds. Also well suited for chainlock practice.
Con:
Not a lot of depth to the build, uses only a small number of skills. While most matchups seemed really fine (if I had been on the same skill/experience level), the major problem are builds that deal big elemental damage in single hits or otherwise very quickly. I've seen my >4k mana pool depleted in split-seconds, and even ES broken from some nasty hits. Has to play super defensively against such builds which isn't that fun.
No fancy gear required, can work with basic Meph gear. Similar style as Necro, but much tankier (at the cost of a somewhat weaker offense that's a easier to deal with than Necro's). Fast mana replenish often means recovering from hits/mistakes that would mean a death sentence with other builds. Also well suited for chainlock practice.
Con:
Not a lot of depth to the build, uses only a small number of skills. While most matchups seemed really fine (if I had been on the same skill/experience level
), the major problem are builds that deal big elemental damage in single hits or otherwise very quickly. I've seen my >4k mana pool depleted in split-seconds, and even ES broken from some nasty hits. Has to play super defensively against such builds which isn't that fun.Windy:
Pro:
Very sturdy with minions, high life, max block and DR. Damage is solid too, and he doesn't require crazy gear, again basic Meph stuff suffices.
Con:
99 FCR maxblock setup is a bit slow and clumsy compared to other casters, not that easy to chase down opponents. The alternative 163 FCR setup is more fun, but not great when physical damage is a threat. Also very dependent on constant recasting, more so than Necro and other classes. To me it seemed every Windy is in reality two Windys, depending on the situation: The one with armor & minions is very scary to face... but the one who just lost all of those things is vulnerable and not that scary.
Very sturdy with minions, high life, max block and DR. Damage is solid too, and he doesn't require crazy gear, again basic Meph stuff suffices.
Con:
99 FCR maxblock setup is a bit slow and clumsy compared to other casters, not that easy to chase down opponents. The alternative 163 FCR setup is more fun, but not great when physical damage is a threat. Also very dependent on constant recasting, more so than Necro and other classes. To me it seemed every Windy is in reality two Windys, depending on the situation: The one with armor & minions is very scary to face... but the one who just lost all of those things is vulnerable and not that scary.
BvC/BvA & other melee
Nope. Here I realized VERY quickly these require much more experience than all of the above to be viable, that is in FFA at least. Same for some melee-oriented builds such as hybrid Paladin, having tried V/T and some Dreamer variant briefly. They do get kills but in most cases getting a kill left me in terrible shape... 1v1 could be different but I felt making them work in FFA is very hard.
1v1 could be different but I felt making them work in FFA is very hard.
- Apr 4, 2020
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@ffs a wonderful post. I share the view on 90% things you said
I just checked what kind of hammerdin I could build with my gear.
2x fcr/dex/life rings, no skills fcr dex/life amulet, 1 skiller, 1.07 Shako... He would be this:
6236 life (no Oak)
7338 life (Oak)
Permanent 85 lite res, 80 fire res
86 FHR
31% DR
1332 PvP damage
Now let's assume player uses 1.13 Shako and 1.13 CtA with +4 BO
Everything is the same except
4563 life (no Oak)
5664 life (Oak)
41% DR
This gives you two ideas
1. How easy it is to build a powerful Hammerdin
2. How huge difference does bta CtA + 1.07 Shako make in general
One more thing to add in that regard. With hammerdin you can pretty much ignore all melee builds, they are simply not a threat to you. Trapper and other builds can't say the same. All these could be reasons why hammer is considered the strongest PvP build in general. I'd say Liberator could be potentially stronger, or at least in my mind they are the very comparable in power although I'd pick Liberator for the general all around PvP due to having good hammers and very strong charge/smite to deal with the likes of trapper and bowa hammer struggles against.
I just checked what kind of hammerdin I could build with my gear.
2x fcr/dex/life rings, no skills fcr dex/life amulet, 1 skiller, 1.07 Shako... He would be this:
6236 life (no Oak)
7338 life (Oak)
Permanent 85 lite res, 80 fire res
86 FHR
31% DR
1332 PvP damage
Now let's assume player uses 1.13 Shako and 1.13 CtA with +4 BO
Everything is the same except
4563 life (no Oak)
5664 life (Oak)
41% DR
This gives you two ideas
1. How easy it is to build a powerful Hammerdin
2. How huge difference does bta CtA + 1.07 Shako make in general
One more thing to add in that regard. With hammerdin you can pretty much ignore all melee builds, they are simply not a threat to you. Trapper and other builds can't say the same. All these could be reasons why hammer is considered the strongest PvP build in general. I'd say Liberator could be potentially stronger, or at least in my mind they are the very comparable in power although I'd pick Liberator for the general all around PvP due to having good hammers and very strong charge/smite to deal with the likes of trapper and bowa hammer struggles against.
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Delsy
Active member
- Oct 16, 2013
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@ffs I'll join today if there's a game
@nulio You've asked about bowazon. Grip has a pvp bowazon video that'll give you a good idea how to play. The basics are: don't be stationary, always have some GA's nearby - shoot in directions you expect you'll be approached from, if you catch an opponent off guard - namelock GA, if you are in trouble - WSG away.
@nulio You've asked about bowazon. Grip has a pvp bowazon video that'll give you a good idea how to play. The basics are: don't be stationary, always have some GA's nearby - shoot in directions you expect you'll be approached from, if you catch an opponent off guard - namelock GA, if you are in trouble - WSG away.
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