The PvP Thread
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@Gripphon
I assume you consider Oak ring slot mandatory? Otherwise could include Cham'ed Griffon's and hit the same stats/breakpoints with HLW, Arach, second FCR ring, and get more FRW/FHR from charms as needed. Tradeoff is open ring slot vs the massive damage from Grffon's, depending on exact numbers it can more than double it even when dropping a couple of skillers... But I don't know your damage numbers and trust you ran things on your end for typical enemy LR/absorb setups and considered Oak utility.
Another point/question relates to IAS breakpoints and use of the weapon switch. I've seen several Zon builds that used cube CtA to make more use of the switch, and was wondering whether it makes sense for Javazon too, be it CS/LF or hybrid with poison (I want to build one of the latter).
I'm considering it because Java doesn't actually need 55 IAS for CS but only 50 IAS, while the 52 IAS breakpoint is "only" relevant for throwing. So with that in mind, for melee CS action I was considering Thunderstroke + some IAS gloves + IAS socketed Stormshield. That's 50 IAS and with Griffon's it's the most damaging CS, while keeping SS when using CS and being next to opponents. Then for ranged situations and throwing javelins, I was planning to use a dedicated offensive switch without SS and instead getting either 55 IAS or 99 FCR there.
I assume you consider Oak ring slot mandatory? Otherwise could include Cham'ed Griffon's and hit the same stats/breakpoints with HLW, Arach, second FCR ring, and get more FRW/FHR from charms as needed. Tradeoff is open ring slot vs the massive damage from Grffon's, depending on exact numbers it can more than double it even when dropping a couple of skillers... But I don't know your damage numbers and trust you ran things on your end for typical enemy LR/absorb setups and considered Oak utility.
Another point/question relates to IAS breakpoints and use of the weapon switch. I've seen several Zon builds that used cube CtA to make more use of the switch, and was wondering whether it makes sense for Javazon too, be it CS/LF or hybrid with poison (I want to build one of the latter).
I'm considering it because Java doesn't actually need 55 IAS for CS but only 50 IAS, while the 52 IAS breakpoint is "only" relevant for throwing. So with that in mind, for melee CS action I was considering Thunderstroke + some IAS gloves + IAS socketed Stormshield. That's 50 IAS and with Griffon's it's the most damaging CS, while keeping SS when using CS and being next to opponents. Then for ranged situations and throwing javelins, I was planning to use a dedicated offensive switch without SS and instead getting either 55 IAS or 99 FCR there.
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I do agree that setup based on Griffon's just isn't good. If you remove -elr cheese from equation Griffon's just isn't good. I made setup based around JMoD just so that I can use the damn thing, but don't think it's good in FFA.
Ber IAS CoA
Enigma
2/19/LR/mana amulet
Titan's
50allress/60IAS JMoD
Dungo
RF
Oak ring
2/20/knockback/LR gloves
30/10 resist boots
Enigma
2/19/LR/mana amulet
Titan's
50allress/60IAS JMoD
Dungo
RF
Oak ring
2/20/knockback/LR gloves
30/10 resist boots
Real differences in our setups are:
95 IAS vs 55 IAS
105 FRW vs 135 FRW
17 fpa teleport vs 13 fpa teleport
damage output
Because CoA and JMoD bring so many + resists on this, I can use 9 skillers which bumps my CS damage dramatically. If I math'd it right my zon probably has more than double CS damage than your zon (1-7221 x 11 bolts at 7 frames vs 1-4664 x 9 bolts at 8 frames). So there are obvious differences in builds. I don't know which one is better, but I do know mine is far more flexible. I can swap stuff around while you probably have built in belt and ring. I can easily switch to anti caster play with higher fcr breakpoints (think something like 48 fcr) but I'm not completely happy with my %DR FFA setup either fcr is just so low but I don't see solution outside of dropping JMoD which I don't want to do. Java is weak and it therefore completely unexplored build unlike meta builds and battle net guides assume you have 2/20/30/2os head to cover your breakpoints which is insane as starting point of the build. I think Valk is good alternative here even if it obviously looses to 6 modded rare diadems.
You gave me something to think about however. I'm not sure how important is DR on javazon considering all the matchups. I think only place where it can change outcome of the fight is vs barb and perhaps windy. Grief based paladins, ghosts(or any assassins?) and bowas are all broken matchups and not worth playing probably. I know DR is useful in FFA but it's just something to think about.
Sure... why remove that from the equation though?
Small table below with max CS damage numbers taken from my Cow/AS Javazon who uses 20/14 Cham'ed Griffon's by default. Input damage numbers simply obtained from equipping and unequipping stuff. Above table is when facing 75 LR with or without 20% Wisp. (Below ist vs 80 LR just cause I wanted to see the effects when some +max res is in play...)
TLDR: Better make 100% sure you have a damn good reason not to use it.
More than double damage in all above cases.Unless you expect significant LR overstack to neutralize -ELR from Griffon's. Then it's a different story entirely.
Indeed godly 2os rare circlet would be awesome given the ability to use facets for similar effects as above, while also getting some other good stats... I have nothing even remotely worth using though.
And that's precisely what I'm counting on. I know how busted -resistance is and I have option to stack it where needed. I know not everyone has access to it, but I also know that best built characters do have access to it. And those strongest characters is what I would build around. With -25 enemy resistance you can double your damage and it's very noticable when enemy fireball hits you for 1700 damage. You know there are -resistances in play and then you just stack it.
@frozzzen That makes sense. So far personally I mostly made sure I had 75 res after Anya bug which can already be tricky, then just using Wisp against lightning dmg... so against most of my fledgling characters, Griffon's would have meant 2x damage pretty much.
But sure enough, it only takes a couple of LR SCs to fully negate the -ELR. Having those stashed to counter a Griffon's setup isn't much of a stretch indeed. In such cases there's definitely better utility from other headpieces.
But sure enough, it only takes a couple of LR SCs to fully negate the -ELR. Having those stashed to counter a Griffon's setup isn't much of a stretch indeed. In such cases there's definitely better utility from other headpieces.
- Apr 4, 2020
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@frozzzen
Oh thank god you never bring that OP thing! No one would be able to collect corpses because they would be shattered into million pieces. Daaaamn. Look at that thing. And we thought hammmer is strong. How naive!
That being said, JMoD seems to lead to big sacrifices, especially fcr or alternatively in DR. Question is does extra damage output outweigh the need to have higher DR or higher fcr. At first I played with 34 FCR and total of 95 FRW and concluded I can't really do enough like that, namely FRW was too low for such character while fcr was barely useful for positioning, only for stomping purposes.
DR% I find important because there are many physical characters around javazon can kill and outtank and characters most players have aren't godlike tier built nor do we play them like gods would. Smiter with 6k life played by some very experienced player will smash javazon. Our smiters with 4k life and not godlike played won't necessarily kill java with ease. Our smiters struggle to kill bowa with ease after all. Ghost, unless it's Youmu, will be defeatable from time to time not because of DR although it helps, but if we can have higher FCR to escape easier and not rely just on walking. Windy is a hard matchup where javazon could put up resistance or even win sometimes, but without DR scratch that out as an option. BvC is also beatable with good DR. Of course I don't talk about 1v1, I talk about FFA where we could accidentally find some smiter or ghost with 1k-2k life left and then it's a doable kill with combination of good DR and faster casting. Against smiter java can actually tele out with 68 FCR breaking his lock, not sure it's doable with slower casting.
We simply don't have bnet playing conditions with godly gear nor hundreds of hours of experience or chainlock stomping practices. In such conditions javazon wouldn't really have access to Blood Moor, she would be a weaker FuzzyDodger.
@ffs
Interesting solutions. I want 55 IAS for throwing to benefit more from knockback as well as higher damage output. Most of the time Fury is my damaging skill, stomping ain't easy to use Charged Strike. As for Griffon's... yeah, at first I killed you more because you didn't have 20 LR stack. Make a stack and Griffon's is killed. I nearly always have 20 LR stack on my characters just in case someone comes with Griffon's, FoH paladins or Java or sorceress.
Oh thank god you never bring that OP thing! No one would be able to collect corpses because they would be shattered into million pieces. Daaaamn. Look at that thing. And we thought hammmer is strong. How naive!
That being said, JMoD seems to lead to big sacrifices, especially fcr or alternatively in DR. Question is does extra damage output outweigh the need to have higher DR or higher fcr. At first I played with 34 FCR and total of 95 FRW and concluded I can't really do enough like that, namely FRW was too low for such character while fcr was barely useful for positioning, only for stomping purposes.
DR% I find important because there are many physical characters around javazon can kill and outtank and characters most players have aren't godlike tier built nor do we play them like gods would. Smiter with 6k life played by some very experienced player will smash javazon. Our smiters with 4k life and not godlike played won't necessarily kill java with ease. Our smiters struggle to kill bowa with ease after all. Ghost, unless it's Youmu, will be defeatable from time to time not because of DR although it helps, but if we can have higher FCR to escape easier and not rely just on walking. Windy is a hard matchup where javazon could put up resistance or even win sometimes, but without DR scratch that out as an option. BvC is also beatable with good DR. Of course I don't talk about 1v1, I talk about FFA where we could accidentally find some smiter or ghost with 1k-2k life left and then it's a doable kill with combination of good DR and faster casting. Against smiter java can actually tele out with 68 FCR breaking his lock, not sure it's doable with slower casting.
We simply don't have bnet playing conditions with godly gear nor hundreds of hours of experience or chainlock stomping practices. In such conditions javazon wouldn't really have access to Blood Moor, she would be a weaker FuzzyDodger.
@ffs
Interesting solutions. I want 55 IAS for throwing to benefit more from knockback as well as higher damage output. Most of the time Fury is my damaging skill, stomping ain't easy to use Charged Strike. As for Griffon's... yeah, at first I killed you more because you didn't have 20 LR stack. Make a stack and Griffon's is killed. I nearly always have 20 LR stack on my characters just in case someone comes with Griffon's, FoH paladins or Java or sorceress.
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Yeah, doing 1v1 after you brought the Valk version and proclaimed it was scarier now, I was like "what the hell is this dude talking about, this is less scary" .. but indeed I just let myself get wrecked by Griffon's before that apparently.
There was some talk about mid-week sessions like today, anyone up for it on short notice?
Seems I can't host btw, tried several things but so far at least I can't get my router to do what I want it to do...
There was some talk about mid-week sessions like today, anyone up for it on short notice?
Seems I can't host btw, tried several things but so far at least I can't get my router to do what I want it to do...
- Apr 4, 2020
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You also played better in recent matches. It became more evident necro is the hunter and not java. Like I said, once you master necro, java won't be able to touch you in many fights. I barely saw any opportunity to damage you with CS. Windy is the same, once your namelock stomping game improves I won't be able to CS you like ever because I'll be too busy running away
I would be in for a short notice, but not today. Wednesday transforms into going out day for me with tuesday and thurdsay reserved for training, makes me possibly available monday/friday before the weekend. Some wednesdays will do okay from time to time, can't say when though xD
I would be in for a short notice, but not today. Wednesday transforms into going out day for me with tuesday and thurdsay reserved for training, makes me possibly available monday/friday before the weekend. Some wednesdays will do okay from time to time, can't say when though xD
I will be around today for sure, not sure if all the time but should be here. Also no to CBF unless you need IAS based attacks.
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