The PvP Thread

[ffs]

Btw current patch Arkaine's is an interesting option too, definitely for current-patch players. I'd even argue while 1.07 Ark is probably always better, for ES Sorc the difference is really smaller than usual. Just because life/vit is not quite as crucial for her, and the iDR from 1.10+ Ark on the other hand is actually helpful for ES Sorc. It's in fact my go-to body armor choice for my Nova/ES Sorcs when running Cows or Pit on higher player settings.

But integer dmg reduction really shines with 95% ES build, not so much with lower ES levels. Same for largely ignoring resists etc... Obviously haven't tried much in PvP but I might move some points out of mastery/synergies and try 95 ES (or close) with more integer dmg reduction stuff. Would lose a good chunk of FB damage but could be worth it.

 

[Gripphon]

Big minus of Arkaine's is it's type - medium armor. If not coupled with 40% FRW boots, your sorc will move like a grandpa and trapper will stun you to death. I would suggest against Arkaine's as ideal armor because of it despite having big life boost (1.07 variant). I would either go with some light armor or Enigma in light armor, Enigma being the better option against trappers and wind druids since it offers 45% FRW. And no, I'm not trolling if anyone wonders, I simply noticed the weakness of my firesorc when playing against both windy and trapper. She is walking so slowly... Sorceress not using Enigma is the only reason they fall prey so easily to trapper unlike necro who can escape out. Arkaine's works IF sorceress uses some FRW from charms or belt, don't know how much. Or simply ignore this one encounter since Ark is better against everything else and play it super safe against assassins.

 

[Gripphon]

Here are characters I'm gonna build for the next PvP session that I think were never seen before in our duel community. Plan is this

1. Frozen Orb sorceress
- max block
- 950 orb damage, 4300 blast damage, max mastery, 8k defense, Oak

2. Poison/bone hybrid necro
- vitality 75 fcr
- 6k Nova, 2200 Spear, 1600 Spirit, 810 Armor, Oak
- won't use Lower Resist
- will use Web

3. Kick/WoF hybrid
- lvl 38 WoF, 66% OW, 8k AR, 50% DR, 12 hard points Mindblast

4. Surprise build!
- this one will either be terrible or very fun, we shall see. I've never seen it in action, like ever.

 

[ffs]

Enigma is generally a good ES Sorc choice. Being new to PvP I have no idea about how much FRW is needed vs Trapper, but the malus from medium armor isn't that scary tbh. According to a quick search it’s -0.3 yards/s, and base is 6/s walk and 9/s run apparently. Should be easy to make up for if it really makes a difference.

I did remake the FB/ES Sorc with 95 ES now. Curious how that goes. But unless the next session lines up perfectly with my schedule I will probably only be back in action in a couple of weeks. Looking forward to better ping though.

 

[maxicek]

Nice builds froz.
1. @Darkoooo had one of these.
2. Interesting idea, looking forward to seeing this one.
3. I have one of these, but need to finish her off. I'm looking for a Jah for Fury and need to level her a bit more.

 

[Gripphon]

@ffs
Perhaps. What we should compare are necro and windy who by some default have at least 65%, usually 75 or 85% FRW without any penalty. My sorc in those duels had 40% FRW boots and Ark and she was a bit too slow against trapper, manageable but not comfortable against windy.

By that logic I'd say at least 60% FRW with Ark for some comfort to escape out of traps or dodge tornadoes and that should be tested. I think trapper is so dangerous because we simply lack FRW to escape her namelock or even fight her while she has us in namelock. I had so many opportunities to blast fireball into maxicek's trapper but couldn't because I moved too slowly to dodge traps fast enough. Maybe just a little extra FRW in inventory instead of life could make noticeable difference. Windy is also super dangerous unless you actually have CBF and fast movement, then you simply walk to avoid his stomps. I mean you can also walk against fireball sorc and bonenec and anything missile based to avoid damage while doing damage in return. Hammerdin can't stomp you either if you do that, at least he must rely on lucky hits more. We simply didn't explore such dueling strategies enough since battlenet is full of chainlocking madness players forget they can also walk just like bowazon does.

After all I walk with BvC as much as I port having several spirits on my tail and traps around and stuff and going unharmed while baiting for an opportunity to kill something.

Some fights with walking style from previous PvP weeks

@maxicek
I can give you Jah if you need it


EDIT
Upon checking some of my characters as well as FRW table here, this is what it gets to:

My necro has 85% FRW which is 12.24 y/s and he dodges tornadoes comfortably as well as being able to avoid trapper although still taking some damage. My sorceress with 40% FRW and medium armor had 10.56 y/s which is 1.68 y/s slower than necro and that is easily felt difference, enough to have trouble getting out of traps.

My conclusion; for the best dueling experience aiming for 12 yards/second running is optimal to be able to escape trapper reasonably well and dodge tornadoes. 12 yards/second is 75% FRW without penalty, or Enigma + 30% FRW boots. Going with Enigma + Sandstorm (65% FRW total) leads to 11.7 y/s which is the same as having 75% FRW with medium armor. Is that a bit slow or not? Can't really say. I just imagine sorceress having 100% FRW like barb does and how hard would be to hit her with pretty much anything

Is it worth it to remove some life charms for FRW charms just to have extra comfort in a few matches? Depends... Can't be objective here, but my experience is 85% FRW is very comfortable for a walking playing style while using 40% + medium armor makes you a snail.

 

[frozzzen]

FO sorc? >_> And you talkin' shit about Joanna? At this point I'm not sure if you are trolling or serious.

Yeah, Darkoooo had 95% FO/ES sorc which I think is far more natural build considering FO only uses 60 skillpoints total, but I never liked FO sorcs. They commit just about every sin under the sun I'll just go ahead and say it again "Necro is just a better sorc in every regard".

Anyway, when are we planing next games? Schedule etc?

 

[Gripphon]

Froz, perhaps you need to repeat that statement a few more times, it still didn't quite stick. Perhaps glue is too old.

As for my sorc, I won't build ES variant because it sacrifices the actually most dangerous thing about FO sorc.

 

[ffs]

For me it looks like I’ll be out until mid January, but then back with full force.

 

[Delsy]

FRW on a PvP Sorc wut? Only Grip...

I'm on a leave for 2 weeks, if anyone would like to play I'll find some time. If Max showed up it would be great with Froz and Grip, but 1v1 is fine too.

My bowa needs to be adjusted to hell. I can patch up a Fire sorc quickly just for a change and I'd like to make a Fury druid for team duels.

 

[maxicek]

I completely read that post as froz. Sorry for making the confusion

I may take you up on the Jah Grip, but I will wait until after I am levelled. Never know what will drop.

A couple of weeks should be good for me.

 

[Gripphon]

FRW on a PvP Sorc wut? Only Grip...

Can you believe amount of trolling in this thread? Unbelievable.

I will also rebuild my characters, completely removing 1.07 Shako from them. Useless helm is useless. Good news, assassins and paladins will be (even) easier to kill! Now the bad news... it doesn't apply to bowa

 

[Gripphon]

Here's a quick sketch of a Ghost I'd like to build, any comments/suggestions Sin pros?

Spoiler

2/20/life/res circlet posted above
Enigma
2/15 amulet
Raven
FCR/AR/dex/mana ring
Chaos Suwayyah
Fury Runic
TO gloves
Verdungo's
eth Sandstorm Treks

Skills: 20 each Venom, Mind blast, Claw Mastery, Fade, ~10 weapon block, rest TBD maybe shadow master?

Also wondering whether to go HLW + Arach instead of FCR ammy + Verdungo's. Is HLW worth it when generally leaning towards Venom for damage outpust (Mentalist skillers etc.)? Then I guess I should socketed yet another Ber I don't currently have in the circlet.

I don't have any great eth/venom fools claws or anything, so I think Fury RT is probably the way to go, but if I'm overlooking something lmk.

Probably should make new Chaos/Fury in any case because neither base has +Venom. Shame the only + Venom bases I have are Wrist Sword or Suwayyah but might just make a new Chaos in one of those and WSM bug with RT offhand.

Upon calculating the damage output of ghost assassin, it largely depends on a situation. If you whirl someone to death, majority of damage output is from physical damage, otherwise physical aspect is not even 50% (open wounds takes over).

HLW is not so juicy option to go for, even with ethereal claws. That being said, I did this:

Spoiler

FCR circlet
Enigma BP
Arachnid
TO gloves
Ravenfrost
10/stats/AR/mana/res ring
Eth Chaos/Eth Fury
HLW amulet
Gore Riders

Inventory: 4 skillers, 2 of those with FHR

Poison resist is not maxed, if needed I can replace Gore with Treks

HLW mathematically ISN'T worth it, especially since I used Gore before now just adding HLW which in return doesn't add more than 15% extra damage output for whirling. Better option is to go fcr amulet and use Oak ring for more life. However, it is simply my choice to go full damage mode

As for skills, opt for lvl 17 master when he gets rare items and can easily become immune to elements. Other than that....

Max Mastery, Fade, Mindblast, Venom, 58% clawblock

 

[ffs]

Interesting to see the claw staff mods, I figured you guys all had +Venom claws. When I farmed LK for the Bers for CoA there was a Suwayyah rack and I got a couple with +3 Venom.. was hoping to get Fade as well but no luck.

Think as my claws will be non-eth, I should probably look to boost Venom as much as I can and remake Chaos & Fury in bases that have it. Probably some cow running is in order to get a fast base to pair with the Suwayyah for WSM bugging.

Also I got 6 mentalist skillers with 20-35 life, not sure I should use that many but either way probably Venom focus is my best bet. Ofc in the end none of it really matters as I have absolutely zero experience in PvP, but that’s another problem entirely.

Grip don’t you want a flexible ring slot to be able to quickly swap in Wisp or something while maintaining 65 FCR, rather than having to use the FCR ring (along with Raven)? Didn’t understand that about froz’ setup either..

 

[frozzzen]

FRW is legitimate concern for pvp for any class. If you re using WSG you are shooting yourself in the foot for not using some FRW. It's not surprise that most expensive circlets on NL are usually 2/20 ones with 30 frw and 2os. We obviously don't have access to those (even if we can semi emulate them with 1.07 Valk and beta BKWB).

So if you care about my Ghost setup...

1.07 Shako
2/18 amulet
eth Chaos
50 OW Fool's Claw/eth Fury
Enigma
Trang gloves
Arach
fcr ring
oak ring
classic resist boots

Even if claws are ethereal, I can't really say that I have either venom or physical style setup. Eth claws get me more physical damage than 3/20/20 charms would, but I only use 3 Shadow skillers and no maxers at all. Idea is to hit 50% DR with Ber'd 1.07 Shako and for that I need 3 skillers to cast fade with (11 items 3 skillers 8 ber 8 enigma 20 fade for 50 total). My inventory is mix of resistance charms to get to 175 allress, enough mana to be comfortable (730 I think?) and rest into attack rating/life. It's a combination of what I have available to use since I don't have infinite wealth and perfect rares of NL so my Ghost ends up as some kind of weird mix of bnet ideas and spectrums, but I firmly believe this is best setup we have available on SPF.

Don't think staffmods are really relevant on Ghost since it's doesn't need many skill points to begin with, but if you can't get 6 fade or 6 venom or 6 minblast, then focus on picking skills like Blade Shield, Dragon Flight or LS that don't have useful prerequisites. If I could pick reasonable staffmods I'd take +6 Mindblast claws over +6 Fade or +6 Venom and then get as many aforementioned 1 point wonders.

 

[maxicek]

Trouble is if you are casting with Beta CtA you already have +4 Venom. Getting a decent Fools claw is hard enough, with +3 Venom even harder. I would only worry about + Venom on Chaos if I had +3 on the Fools claw.

 

[Gripphon]

Bnet is full of unnecessary perfectionism regarding gear or even ideas. Venom damage is not THAT important, hitting over 1k is good enough and won't make a difference whether you have 1k or 1.3k Venom damage. In fact using more AR charms for both higher life and AR is better option than focusing on Venom with skillers.

As for FRW... as froz said. Unless you want to be instantly killed by a trapper (or nearly any assassin), better pack some decent FRW on sorc and other casters. You may escape, but amount of time you will lose a ton of HP from one namelock is too high just because you walk too slow and can't WSG out of danger.

@ffs
I see absorb as a means to balance the fight, not to make a living Great Wall of China. If we go competitive format, then sure, I'd just build her the way froz did

 

[frozzzen]

Bnet is full of unnecessary perfectionism regarding gear or even ideas. Venom damage is not THAT important, hitting over 1k is good enough and won't make a difference whether you have 1k or 1.3k Venom damage. In fact using more AR charms for both higher life and AR is better option than focusing on Venom with skillers.

As for FRW... as froz said. Unless you want to be instantly killed by a trapper (or nearly any assassin), better pack some decent FRW on sorc and other casters. You may escape, but amount of time you will lose a ton of HP from one namelock is too high just because you walk too slow and can't WSG out of danger.

@ffs
I see absorb as a means to balance the fight, not to make a living Great Wall of China. If we go competitive format, then sure, I'd just build her the way froz did

For one reason or another I feel called out, but I don't primarily use flexible ring slot for absorb. I use it for Oak charges. In fact, 30 PR from Nature's Peace is built into my 175 allress Ghost's kit and I don't swap for Wisp at all. Ghosts already have high clawblock and are fairly good against caster by default. Oak is amazing. Aside from added life it acts as minion stack and if it eats bone spirit or hammer it already had more impact than any other item I could use.

Trouble is if you are casting with Beta CtA you already have +4 Venom. Getting a decent Fools claw is hard enough, with +3 Venom even harder. I would only worry about + Venom on Chaos if I had +3 on the Fools claw.

And even then I don't think venom is worth it. Venom is still a dot. It lasts 20 frames on Hell from initial application. It's good against maxblock where you don't get many hits, but against vita caster you can get as many as 7-8 additional hit checks on whirlwind during those 20 frames. It doesn't do full damage on every tick, it just extends its duration. Tienje might as well be best pvp guide writer for d2, but if there's one thing I disagree with him, that is assigning much relevance to Venom. If you want Venom that badly, just slap (beta) Bramble and Demon Limb in cube and field buff it from there >_>

Mindblast on the other hand is probably second most commonly cast spell except Teleport. When dueling Delsy's bowa on my trapper I probably cast Mindblast well over 100 times over the course of the duel. That's some serious damage. Considering he was using absorb vs my LS I'd bet that ~25 - 30% of my damage output was Mindblast chipping. Higher levels also get progressively better and better because they add more and more value due to you getting out of IDR range from Sols (Fortitude) or stuff like Nature's Peace, and once you hit lvl 41 Minblast it gets full 10 sec of its stun thingie, so pushing it up is never a bad idea. There is also idea floating around that Shadow Master is using skills you have invested many points in, but also that it's using skills you have on your claws so it would make SM even better with +6 Minblast claws, but I never managed to confirm that theory. And even in case you like the idea of having high level Venom vs maxblock characters, those are usually Paladins. Against those you will usually be on defensive and use Mindblast like crazy, so I don't think there is any real loss in going for Mindblast as primary staffmod.

Did I sell it enough?

 

[Gripphon]

Fun facts: Oak from Nature's prefers to eat hammers while Oak from Wisp prefers to eat spirits!

 

[Delsy]

Froz could you host tomorrow or over the weekend? Is anyone interested?