The LLD Nursery
- Thread starter entwilighter
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- Oct 8, 2019
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Has someone calced it out which ilvl is the best for double bow?
I want to make a char just for PSkull rerolling them
then I can Imbue only one bow and cube the rest.
I came to the conclusion that diademrerolling merely saves gold, and 6 PSkulls are alot harder than finding 2 million gold imo
I want to make a char just for PSkull rerolling them
then I can Imbue only one bow and cube the rest.
I came to the conclusion that diademrerolling merely saves gold, and 6 PSkulls are alot harder than finding 2 million gold imo
- Oct 8, 2019
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is this the perfect lvl 18 weapon for druid?
A couple of questions re LLD items and rules, as mentioned in the PvP thread with @Delsy I'd be interested in buliding a few LLD chars.
Rules questions:
namely:
Rules questions:
- Insight/Meditation: I've seen Insight mentioned in numerous guides. Granted, some of them where for rule sets where mana potions were disallowed, which I understand is not the case around here. But should Insight be banned completely? Insight has many uses, including melee characters that mostly want the damage and Critical Strike.
- Perhaps: If Insight is used, mana potions may not be used? And banned for ES Sorc?
- Eth runewords for physical dmg dealers: I've seen this is considered BM by many. Personally I can relate because (1) it kinda forces all physical damage dealers to do the same to even the odds, and (2) it favors builds that use cheap runewords with easy to obtain bases. E.g. Paladins using scepters with rare staffmods or Barbs using axes with crazy jewels would be stuck with much weaker weapons for little reason.
namely:- Necro heads:
- Rhyme base with up to +3 staffmods: Pesumably most reliable farming is via racking? I guess LK? Any insight as to how normal/NM/Hell compare? Alternatively when rolling the dice and running cows, NM or normal?
- Also magic/rare with + skill levels for lvl 30: Racking or what?
- Necro wands: I guess shopping? Similarly, any golden rules re difficulty and clvl of the shopper?
- Sin claws: I guess these should be rare, i.e. gambling rather than shopping, but not sure?
- Paladin scepters are of interest to me as well, but I guess this will be pretty much same the same as necro heads for runeword bases.
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snickersnack
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- Dec 23, 2007
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I haven't kept up with this thread, so maybe this is a dumb question...
Is anyone doing LLD on D2R bnet?
Is anyone doing LLD on D2R bnet?
Delsy
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- Oct 16, 2013
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@ffs regarding lvl 30 rules:
- I can't really see the reason why not to use mana potions. However, in all the guides I came across they are not used. There seems to be something to it, which I can't see yet. It's up to you, I don't mind either way right now. I played lvl 30 only once here with @entwilighter, but I can't remember whether we used pots or not.
- Insight I don't mind if it's reasonable, i.e. not on MS sorc and on Pally with 1 pt Prayer max.
- Eth RW's I don't mind either.
- I can't really see the reason why not to use mana potions. However, in all the guides I came across they are not used. There seems to be something to it, which I can't see yet. It's up to you, I don't mind either way right now. I played lvl 30 only once here with @entwilighter, but I can't remember whether we used pots or not.
- Insight I don't mind if it's reasonable, i.e. not on MS sorc and on Pally with 1 pt Prayer max.
- Eth RW's I don't mind either.
Personally I've based my characters around @maxicek's rules suggestions (posted here). Whether we change them or not doesn't have much on an effect on my current characters/planning.
Still, a couple of takes/additions & suggestions on some points:
Still, a couple of takes/additions & suggestions on some points:
- Insight/Meditation: Allowed except for ES Sorc; Paladin with 1 pt Prayer max.
- Mana potions allowed except for ES Sorc (perhaps also prohibited if Insight is used? TBD)
- Ethereal runewords: My take would be "no". Things like Honor/Insight can be made in dispensible bases. Don't see why characters using weapons like that should get such a big and easy damage boost (and saved stat points) in comparison to chars that spend super rare jewels and/or a lot of time looking for bases. It also devalues eth/self-repair rares. Personally I don't have any useful ones, but they can be very cool and awesome and I'd love to see people who have them also use them. Would be a shame if they see no action just because they can't quite beat some cheapo ethereal Honor/Insight damage.
- Recasting Cyclone/Bone Armor: In HLD we allow this by now, perhaps in LLD too? Granted, looking at absorb numbers they do have a bigger effect in LLD in comparison to damage output. But then again, seems like Druid/Nec aren't as OP in LLD as they are in HLD and there we allow it... Not sure.
- Time travel gear: Perhaps an exception for 1.07 damage charms. For example on a bowazon those could be too OP, from what I gather she is already a top tier build in LLD even with current patch charms.
Delsy
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- Oct 16, 2013
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I have the lvl 30 necro ready. He lags behind yours in life and dmg, but he should be fine. BP's are 75 fcr, 56 fhr and 100 frw.
What I propose is we take the more or less universal bnet GM rules as our example. Most notably - no pots, no BA/CA recast. Insight we agree on. Impact of Eth RW's is unknown to me so I'd not ban those yet. Neither of us uses time travel gear, so that shouldn't be a worry for now.
What I propose is we take the more or less universal bnet GM rules as our example. Most notably - no pots, no BA/CA recast. Insight we agree on. Impact of Eth RW's is unknown to me so I'd not ban those yet. Neither of us uses time travel gear, so that shouldn't be a worry for now.
@Delsy sounds good to me, although as mentioned before I do feel ethereal runewords for melee weapons should be avoided. My 2 cents, we can just start playing and see how it goes!
I decided to make a tele/WW barb next, looks like amazing fun. Which also brought me to the WW weapons question, there was some discussion earlier in the thread. I've been making spreadsheets calc for PvP characters for a while, and now tweaked a version for LLD30 chars. I used that to help me decide which weapons to use on my Barb and figured I'd share some numbers and what I personally landed on.
@entwilighter mentioned a couple of points here and my spreadsheet numbers are in agreement with the notion that Naga Robo (primary) and Naga Honor (secondary) are probably the way to go for most people in "short WW" scenarios (which are the most relevant, in particular with tele-WW biuld). Numbers in case of my planned gear/build:
The simple 2x Knout Honor seems very appealing. Damage with Naga Robo/Honor combo would be ~14% higher and that's probably worth going for, but in the meantime 2x Honor Knouts grant an additional +10 life repl and +1 skills. Fantastic starter combo, that's what I'll go with at first... before eventually bringing myself to look for Naga racks and engaging in yet another mind numbing grind (or lucking out from NM cows).
On the other hand, 2x Naga Honor isn't that good. The slow attack rates has an impact rather quickly after the 8th frame hit check.
Bloodletters are included mostly for completeness, tbh I'm not seriously considering them because I'm very skeptical due to the range. Range 3 setups have roughly twice the range which is massive, and arguably DPS above can basically be halved as a result. Robo Zweihander (primary) + Bloodletter (secondary) evens out the range but ends up being worse than the other options.
I didn't include eth/self-rep rares because numbers/stats would have been arbitrary. Good eth rares will outperform all of the above of course. I wonder whether any nice ones exists around the SPF? Would love to see such items.
Finally re Insight Partizan, I didn't include numbers either but should be mentioned. For very short WWs of 8 frames or just a tiny bit longer, Insight blows everything else out of the water. But apart from being strictly BvC (no shield), in practice WWs will very often be longer, and even under ideal circumstances it requires machine-like precision to make full use of the guaranteed 4+8 frame hit checks with a slow 2h weapon.
I decided to make a tele/WW barb next, looks like amazing fun. Which also brought me to the WW weapons question, there was some discussion earlier in the thread. I've been making spreadsheets calc for PvP characters for a while, and now tweaked a version for LLD30 chars.
I used that to help me decide which weapons to use on my Barb and figured I'd share some numbers and what I personally landed on.@entwilighter mentioned a couple of points here and my spreadsheet numbers are in agreement with the notion that Naga Robo (primary) and Naga Honor (secondary) are probably the way to go for most people in "short WW" scenarios (which are the most relevant, in particular with tele-WW biuld). Numbers in case of my planned gear/build:
- 586 DPS with Robo Knout (primary) + Honor Knout (secondary)
- 585 DPS with 2x Knout Honor << very good starter combo
- 516 DPS with 2x Robo Nagas (aka me pretending I could make my best robo option twice for the sake of comparison)
- 666 DPS with Robo Naga (primary) + Honor Naga (secondary) << potentially best apart from godly rares
- 512 DPS with 2x Naga Honor
- 698 DPS with 2x Bloodletter (but ~50% range of all other options, deal breaker IMO)
- 579 DPS with Robo Zweihander (primary) + max jewel Bloodletter (secondary)
- Short WWs for a 1 second duration (50 frames), i.e. within range of the target on frames 4/8 and staying in range of the target for the duration.
- DPS numbers are the sum of applied damage in roughly one second, more precisely after WWing for 24 or 26 frames, depending on when hit checks occur with the relevant primary weapon's attack rate (4, 6 or 8 fpa weapons following the second "free" hit check on frame 8). Worth noting that Robo Nagas tend to perform better in longer WW sequences.
- AR/CTH was taken into account, but this of course depends on opponent def. The numbers are based on lvl 30 opponent with 500 defense (and lvl 30 barb). In case of my (planned) gear and above scenarios, AR was between ~2.1k with dual robo to 3.9k with dual Honor.
- Jewels in robos apart from 2x Shael: 20 ED/15max, 18 ED/14max, 19 max and (Naga only) 18 max. That's the best I can currently make. Not exactly top end, but good enough. FWIW, the DPS numbers didn't increase much for RObos when adjusting numbers for perfect jewel rolls.
- Gear: 1/20 FCR circlet (2x 20% ED jewels), 3os armor +65 dmg, Bloodfist, 2x FCR/AR/mana rings, Sander's, SoE, +1 barb/life/mana ammy, 70 max damage from Inventory.
On the other hand, 2x Naga Honor isn't that good. The slow attack rates has an impact rather quickly after the 8th frame hit check.
Bloodletters are included mostly for completeness, tbh I'm not seriously considering them because I'm very skeptical due to the range. Range 3 setups have roughly twice the range which is massive, and arguably DPS above can basically be halved as a result. Robo Zweihander (primary) + Bloodletter (secondary) evens out the range but ends up being worse than the other options.
I didn't include eth/self-rep rares because numbers/stats would have been arbitrary. Good eth rares will outperform all of the above of course. I wonder whether any nice ones exists around the SPF? Would love to see such items.
Finally re Insight Partizan, I didn't include numbers either but should be mentioned. For very short WWs of 8 frames or just a tiny bit longer, Insight blows everything else out of the water. But apart from being strictly BvC (no shield), in practice WWs will very often be longer, and even under ideal circumstances it requires machine-like precision to make full use of the guaranteed 4+8 frame hit checks with a slow 2h weapon.
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- Jun 8, 2010
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To answer your questions about bows, Ashwood Bow is by far the best bow for LLD Bowa. The theoretical best is 1.07 +3 100% ED/+40 Max 4os. Ashwoods seem really hard to find in 1.07 though, Razor Bows are much more common and would also be a good option. I ignore most other bows.
@ffs Amazing theorycrafting work! A lot of the established "meta" for LLD is borne from other communities and can be a bit hit and miss on the thoroughness of their theorycrafting imo. That's why I started this thread in the first place, because the SPF community is the best.
Really cool to know the best setup for whirlybarb and how minimal the DPS difference is with some combinations. This is especially so because the jewels required for robos are almost impossible to find in SP, and robos are only the "standard" because of online duping imo!I have just started playing again after a lengthy hiatus. I will have to get back to all your posts about rules etc. at a later date. BUT I would be keen to arrange some duels in the near term future. Thanks so much for all your contributions to this thread.
@entwilighter you should join us in the PvP thread for the next games! We're playing pretty much on a weekly basis, usually 1-2 sessions per weekend. We had LLD games with @Delsy and @Pyrohemia last time and I think we'll stick with LLD for a bit.
Edit: What’s your time zone?
Re bowazon it's worth noting that upped Rogue's Bow is incredibly strong and cheap, too. With the remaining gear I'm using, 8 FPA Rogues's DPS is even slightly ahead ahead of DPS with 9 FPA Ashwood Robo. And if I chose to go 9 FPA for lower mana consumption, socketing a max jewel in it and using KB craft gloves is the same or barely worse damage per arrow than Robo Ashwood at 9 FPA (~1-2% depending on jewel roll).
For Barb I will eventually switch to Robo+Honor Nagas for the extra damage... for bowazon I don't see myself dropping Rogue's Bow, perhaps merely adding a couple of those to keep in stash with different socketings.
But important to note that I'm using current patch gear, 1.07 bows like the one you described are of course much better than all current patch options.
Edit: What’s your time zone?
Re bowazon it's worth noting that upped Rogue's Bow is incredibly strong and cheap, too. With the remaining gear I'm using, 8 FPA Rogues's DPS is even slightly ahead ahead of DPS with 9 FPA Ashwood Robo. And if I chose to go 9 FPA for lower mana consumption, socketing a max jewel in it and using KB craft gloves is the same or barely worse damage per arrow than Robo Ashwood at 9 FPA (~1-2% depending on jewel roll).
For Barb I will eventually switch to Robo+Honor Nagas for the extra damage... for bowazon I don't see myself dropping Rogue's Bow, perhaps merely adding a couple of those to keep in stash with different socketings.
But important to note that I'm using current patch gear, 1.07 bows like the one you described are of course much better than all current patch options.
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