1.13 Public Test Realm online!

[veryfakename]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Also, I'm going to throw in my $.02 about the respec...I think everyone has the idea of how Blizzard wants us to use the respect wrong. I think they made it so the early game(level 1 to ~30) isn't all item dependent. I don't remember the last time I pumped a low level skill and used it on a character. The sorceress is a perfect example too. When playing untwinked, you usually have to smack stuff with the gemmed weapon for quite some times. This patch would allow you to invest in low levels skills and a utility skill like warmth until you get your real kill spell. So personally, I think this is the kind of use Blizzard thought of with respecing, not "Let's have everyone build cookie cutters, then respec when they hit level 88 to make anything they want."

Exactly! Early game as a sorc is downright exasperating to play, especially untwinked. To actually be able to put some stat points into energy with a caster... what a novel idea! Then when you have your high levels and insight and nice gear, move those points into vit. And to actually use low level spells rather than save everything to pump the lvl 30s... again, who would have thought, eh? How nice.

At the moment, the only time I use lower level skills, ever, is if I'm lucky enough that they're a critical synergy for my endgame skill. Otherwise you are absolutely not allowed to pump them if you want to be viable in hell with most builds.

Simply put, respecs are a great idea. Go go Blizzard.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Yes... simply put they're a great idea. It's only when given a "complex" look that you start to see the flaws in them. D2 has over 10 years without them. I can't think of another 10 year old game still on the shelves at best buy. My bet is that if D2 had respec in 2000 we wouldn't be here today talking about D2, or even D3 for that mater.

 

[smips]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Yes... simply put they're a great idea. It's only when given a "complex" look that you start to see the flaws in them. D2 has over 10 years without them. I can't think of another 10 year old game still on the shelves at best buy. My bet is that if D2 had respec in 2000 we wouldn't be here today talking about D2, or even D3 for that mater.

I doubt that. The reason we all still play Diablo 2 is because of the great gameplay it has. Respecing doesn't change that. I can see where you're coming from by saying respecing takes away from the replayability and I completely agree with you. Having unlimited respecs isn't the answer in my eyes either. I think the quest reward from the Normal Den of Evil quest should allow a respec and nothing else. I think that right now respecing is a good idea, but the current patch has it unbalanced. Judging by the amount of criticism it's getting, I wouldn't be surprised if it changed before 1.13 final is out.

 

[NacRuno]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

I doubt that. The reason we all still play Diablo 2 is because of the great gameplay it has. Respecing doesn't change that. I can see where you're coming from by saying respecing takes away from the replayability and I completely agree with you. Having unlimited respecs isn't the answer in my eyes either. I think the quest reward from the Normal Den of Evil quest should allow a respec and nothing else. I think that right now respecing is a good idea, but the current patch has it unbalanced. Judging by the amount of criticism it's getting, I wouldn't be surprised if it changed before 1.13 final is out.

Unfortunately i don't see much criticism made towards infinite respecs in Battle.net forums. Most of the users actually think it is one of the few nice features of the game. I really hope they remove infinite respecs but i won't be surprised if they stick with it in the final patch.

But i really don't think respecs (even if infinite) will change the SPF community that much. We are here since we enjoy to play the game, we will still play it the way we enjoy it after the patch.

 

[ancalagon the black]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

I don't remember the last time I pumped a low level skill and used it on a character.

I do. I always start out my trapsins by pumping fireblast. Not only is it a great backup skill in the late game, it's a great main skill in the early game. It always irritates me when people say that trapsins are boring for the first 24 levels. They aren't if you play them right.

I get your point, though, that's really the only build I do that sort of thing with.

The sorceress is a perfect example too. When playing untwinked, you usually have to smack stuff with the gemmed weapon for quite some times.

When I play a sorc, I always use spells throughout the game. It would feel wrong not to. I know some people like using gemmed hunters bows, ravenclaw, etc., but I'd rather play the game than skip past it.

Bliz isn't naive Smips... they know what the change will do. It will shorten the life/replayability of D2, which is exactly what they want with D3 coming out. They want people ready to switch to a new game, rather than stick with the old one.

:scratchhead: How exactly would this reduce replayability? There are already methods of rushing through the game that are as fast or faster than the ~6 hours skiffcz estimated farming a token would take.

 

[skiffcz]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

There are already methods of rushing through the game that are as fast or faster than the ~6 hours skiffcz estimated farming a token would take.

You wont get 64 bossdrops rushing your character. Also, "faster" depends on "up to what level". 85? Sure. 95? Not so. Basically, you make a good point, but practically its imba, and thats why Id personally change rarity of those items in those mentioned by 20-30 (more?), to make it as rare as say Ber. It seems fair to me. If anyone is willing to spend Ber to respec his/her char, why not.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

You don't spend six hours running... you get them as a byproduct of playing the game. You're also exagerating the difficulty. You run bosses for other reasons than the respecs, so you'll get respecs aplenty when you play the game looking for items. Meph's token is going to be more common than El runes.

Respec reduces replayability. It's been studied and debated by greater minds than we have here. The effect is really subtle, but you lose connection with the character you're playing when you respec. As a personal example, I was completely addicted to DAoC for years. I just couldn't quit playing. But within days of respecing my main character, I fell out of favor with the game and was eager to quit. Respecing reduces what the industry calls "stickiness". This is the attachment we have to games... what keeps us playing a certain game rather than switching to a different one.

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Indeed respecing won't change things. It would just help me saving some characters that I like but I have failed when I was making them. I don't think anyone here ( or most of us at least ) won't change their bowazons in cow runners just because they can. Respecing is also good for fixing errors or misclicks when we were making characters.

Anyway more I read about 1.13 the more i like it. Rune odds for council are also helping I'm sure I will respec some characters, or rather fix them, and I won't make another build out of it. My goldfinder has rather terrible stat and skill point alocation, but I like him and I will fix him in 1.13.

I will still make new characters, colect HF drops and enjoy game as I was before.

 

[veryfakename]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Yes... simply put they're a great idea. It's only when given a "complex" look that you start to see the flaws in them. D2 has over 10 years without them. I can't think of another 10 year old game still on the shelves at best buy. My bet is that if D2 had respec in 2000 we wouldn't be here today talking about D2, or even D3 for that mater.

I find this idea silly, personally. It's also not an argument that carries much weight with me because it's entirely hypothetical and is just a cheap and easy way to deride respecs without being provable. I mean, there are so many variables that go into making a game attain long lasting popularity and "classic" status. That respecs could be such an overwhelmingly anti-creative force as to shut down our interest in experimenting with new builds and sink interest in the game as a whole does not fly with me at all.

You could just as easily argue that it'd cause people to be more creative because experimenting becomes easier. Personally, there are a lot of builds I'll never try because it takes me about a week per build to get to a high level and I just don't have that kind of time given that I have many very time-consuming interests outside of Diablo as well. Especially when I'm saving my early skill points (in the hopes of maximizing my character for vastly more difficult Hell mode) and feeling underpowered for awhile.

But am I going to say that having respecs earlier on would have made Diablo II even more popular and ensured even longer longevity? No, it's a completely unprovable correlation either way. 20/20 hindsight doesn't help when the change is only introduced now, when there's a totally different fanbase and set of circumstances than there was back when the game was released.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

You could argue that, sure... but it wouldn't agree with what industry experts have paid millions of dollars to research. It also wouldn't agree with historical record.

It does allow people to try out new things. It does give people the feeling of freedom from mistakes. It seems like it would be an all around good idea. But what it does is take away the chance to fail, and without a chance to fail, success doesn't come highly valued. Without value, the interest in the game wanes. Without repercussions for decissions that we make, we stop investing any interest in making correct decissions.

Most people want respec, so game companies are buying into that desire for finacial reasons. They don't make a good game though. The reason HC has "thrill" to it is that we feel the hurt when we make a bad choice, or get sloppy. The reason we play D2 is to experiment... but without the chance of failing, any experiment is quite boring.

 

[ioupain]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

I have spoken to someone else who believes that these changes are actually meant to force people to stop playing - on realms anyway, so that they no longer have to support that battle.net as the new battle.net for D3 is unlikely to be compatible with D2. This way, they can put all their resources into D3 and no longer worry about D2 - but they do it in such a way that they are not obviously forcing people to stop - they are leading them by other means to stop.

EDIT: Forgot to mention that I agree with Shagsbeard - from my own personal experience games that took away the challenge/achievement/personal investment got old fast.

EDIT2: Just to reiterate a point I made earlier, I have no problem with respec as it won't make a difference to me. I won't use it if I don't want to. My biggest problem is the lack of bug fixes and changes (some of them probably very simple - at least for programmers of their calibre). I do however agree that this seems like a subversive tactic to let people get D2 out of their system by giving them easy(or easier) access to numerous builds.

 

[smips]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

It seems like there are two ways to look at respecing really...

One would be to abuse it. Make a cookie cutter, fly through the game, then respec to make an interesting character. Pretty lame and I doubt many people at the SPF would want to do this.

The other would be to optimize characters, fix mistakes, or to implement new gear. Let's say I have a level 90 character and I just found an awesome piece of gear for him to use. However, My stat placement which I chose for the items I have is insufficient. Should I really have to restart him just to use this one piece of gear? Or how about this example: When I made my 1.09 HF rushing sorc, I added a point into a skill I didn't need because I thought it was a prereq for another skill. I opted to just keep going, but if I really wanted or needed that skill point, does it make sense that I should have to restart the character? Needing to do that is tedious at best.

Edit: Right, they want people to stop playing when D3 is a year or two away from being finished.

 

[veryfakename]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

You could argue that, sure... but it wouldn't agree with what industry experts have paid millions of dollars to research. It also wouldn't agree with historical record.

Examples?

The reason we play D2 is to experiment... but without the chance of failing, any experiment is quite boring.

I'm quite capable of failing at d2 even with respec, thanks. It really seems like a lot of the opposition to respec is coming from people who are apparently good enough to never need it anyway (like people sad IM is gone... yeah I'll sure miss the ridiculously unbalanced one hit kills ::rolls eyes:: ). As a mere mortal with limited free time, I'll happily take respec.

 

[skiffcz]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Edit: Right, they want people to stop playing when D3 is a year or two away from being finished.

Careful release process planning and campaign leading was always something really thought through (and pumped with bucks) at Blizz. In fact, I suspect them that the 1.13 release delay was caused by some delay in D3 schedule. And becouse they need the 1.13 to come out at exact period of time before D3, they had to delay it too. Ive never ever seen Blizz to do anything random in their release campaigns and I seriously doubt this is the case.

Thats pure speculation and it may seem as some conspiration theory, but it makes sense to me when coupled with the idea of 1.13 being just part of D3 marketing. They want to test some things, introduce new game concepts and also kill the predecessor so new king can rule and this obviously requires some good timing.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

However, My stat placement which I chose for the items I have is insufficient. Should I really have to restart him just to use this one piece of gear?

What makes this game great is that there are these limitations in place. You don't HAVE to restart your character to use that item... you GET to restart your character so it can use that item. You learned something about the game. Flexability vs. optimalization. If you had used a few extra stat points on your first time through that weren't "optimal" you would have a weaker character, but it would be a character with more flexability. Now, with respec, you can have the whole thing... optimal and flexible. That takes out the reason for thinking about what points to put into stats in the first place.

You see... the game is fun because of the very difficulty you have illustrated. With respec, it's removing the chance of having a decission you made when you made your character have repercussions. That makes the game less interesting, rather than more.

 

[SiTro]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

But don't the new items reduce the chance for other items to drop? Unless it's handled seperatedly...

I think I'd not give the respec that early. Act 4 is good enough. And three respecs is plenty, I'd say.

You're probably right about the drop chances. But I don't know enough about how they're dropped to say much about that. Do they just affect the chances of other items in the same TC as them, or do they effect a global reduction of all other items to drop is one question I'd want to know the answer to.

I'm a little confused as to why the respec is a reward for the first quest in the game. Do they want people to have access to the option pretty much as soon as they start playing? In which case they might as well have respecs available without any pre-requisite from an NPC (Warriv?), and a flag that disables the option once set (like the Cow King/Cow Level access).

I'm inclined to think that the respec reward might be changed to a different quest if there are later betas. An additional reward for killing Nihlathak in Act 5 perhaps? But having it after Den of Evil gives testers a chance to sample it right away.

 

[smips]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Careful release process planning and campaign leading was always something really thought through (and pumped with bucks) at Blizz. In fact, I suspect them that the 1.13 release delay was caused by some delay in D3 schedule. And becouse they need the 1.13 to come out at exact period of time before D3, they had to delay it too. Ive never ever seen Blizz to do anything random in their release campaigns and I seriously doubt this is the case.

Thats pure speculation and it may seem as some conspiration theory, but it makes sense to me when coupled with the idea of 1.13 being just part of D3 marketing. They want to test some things, introduce new game concepts and also kill the predecessor so new king can rule and this obviously requires some good timing.

My point is that if they do something to D2 that makes people want to stop playing, they're going to remember that. Then when D3 comes out, some customers might think "Well, they had no idea what they were doing with the last D2 patches, so D3 is probably more of the same. Looks like I'll pass." Personally, the "make your old products horrible so your new ones will sell better" business approach doesn't make sense in my mind.

What I think makes this game great is that there are these limitations in place. You don't HAVE to restart your character to use that item... you GET to restart your character so it can use that item. You learned something about the game. Flexability vs. optimalization. If you had used a few extra stat points on your first time through that weren't "optimal" you would have a weaker character, but it would be a character with more flexability. Now, with respec, you can have the whole thing... optimal and flexible. That takes out the reason for thinking about what points to put into stats in the first place.

You see... I think the game is fun because of the very difficulty you have illustrated. With respec, it's removing the chance of having a decission you made when you made your character have repercussions. That makes the game less interesting, rather than more.

There, all fixed . Seriously though, if you feel that's one of the best aspects of the game, then you should continue to play that way. I get more enjoyment out of simply playing the game and progressing my characters. I not someone who wants to remake the same build to change my stat points around to use new gear.

 

[Triple Helix]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

You need to install RWM on 1.12 and then upgrade to 1.13 to get it all to work. Replacing the 1.13 Patch file with the RWM one pretty much reverts you back to 1.12 in all but name.

Note you have to use the RWM only modded file (if you use the RRM/RWM one then the 1.13 patch will fail to install).

Tested it and it works now. Thanks a bunch!

 

[ioupain]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

Personally, the "make your old products horrible so your new ones will sell better" business approach doesn't make sense in my mind.

It doesn't make sense - but lots of other things they have done haven't made sense either. Or rather the false promises, lack of content, lack of bug fixes and lack of SP functionality don't scream out that they are trying to make the game the best it can be to retain customers.

Clearly this is all based upon how each individual chooses to view the changes and this is a very personal thing (based on what changes people wanted and what they got). None of us can say for certain what their motivation or reasoning for this patch is - so this discussion (in this point at least) will probably continue ad infinitum.

What does make logical sense to me and to others is that they want to maximise profits on D3 and get all their D2 players to play that. It makes sense to infer that they will cease support for D2 at some point and probably take the resources from that and use them for D3 (although on the other hand they might keep up both - who knows). But this is all conjecture!

If that is their plan, then this might be a good way of making people stop playing by default without actually forcing them - which could lead to bad publicity and so on.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: 1.13 Public Test Realm online!

I'm inclined to think that the respec reward might be changed to a different quest if there are later betas. An additional reward for killing Nihlathak in Act 5 perhaps? But having it after Den of Evil gives testers a chance to sample it right away.

This makes a lot of sense... there's a couple "quests" that don't really do much for the game. I don't think I've ever used the personalization reward. Maybe get Ormus to do it as a reward for busting up the council... or to replace his worthless ring reward.