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Vessel of Hatred

1.08 News, Info and Gossip

Okay, I tried to verify ATMAs chance for a Stormspire from Snipsnap in 1.08 and no matter how I do it I don't get the same chance for 1000 MF.

First off I calculated the chance to get an Archon Staff at all (caution: very depressing numbers ahead). Snipsnap drops from "Act 5 (H) Unique C" which drops 4 potions and one item from "Act 5 Uitem C". This item in turn comes from "Act 5 (H) Equip C" with a chance of 58/62. (4/62 chance for "Good" TC)

Now "Act 5 (H) Equip C" has total weight 4616 and within it weap90 has weight 2. There is no weap90 reference in the equip TC that are called by this TC so the chance for weap90 is 2/4616. Now weap90 contains these items:
name​
level​
TC rarity​
Glorious Axe​
88​
3​
Caduceus​
88​
1​
Mythical Sword​
88​
3​
Legend Spike​
88​
3​
War Pike​
89​
3​
Giant Thresher​
89​
3​
Archon Staff​
89​
1​
Dimensional Shard​
89​
1​
with a total rarity of 18 and hence if weap90 is selected the chance to get an Archon Staff is 1/18.

Multiplying all these chances together we get roughly a 1 in 44409 chance to get an Archon Staff from Snipsnap per kill. ATMA outputs the same number for a white Archon Staff so everything is fine so far.

***

Now on to the quality selection, here I tried 4 different approaches. The general approach should be as follows:
  • 1) Chance = Rarity - [(mlvl-qlvl)/Divisor]
  • 2) Chance = 128*Chance
  • 3) Chance = Chance - [Chance*QualityFactor/1024]
  • 4a) Chance = Chance-MF
  • 4b) Chance = Chance-X*MF; X is 1 for Normal, 4 for NM and 9 for Hell.
  • 4c) Chance = [Chance/(1+EMF/100)] where for uniques EMF = [250*MF/(250+MF)] for MF at least 11, else for uniques EMF = MF.
  • 4d) Chance = [Chance*100/(100+X*MF)] where X = 1/5 for uniques.
Now we think of 4a) as the correct fourth step in 1.08, for example @m4ke 's calculator is based on that step. Step 4b) is how it works in 1.07 while 4c) is the 1.09 version of the algorithm (technically in 1.09 that step comes before 3) but due to the extra precision in step 2) it shouldn't matter). Now where the Hell did I get 4d) from?

For that I quote @TheJarulf from the PK:
Next, how does Magic Find (MF) works? Well, first, lets recap how the base chance for item quality (that is unique, rare and such) works. For this, we uses the itemratio.txt file. We will always use the version 1 line. I am not sure if it uses the uber/class specific lines though, could be, but have not checked. It then calculate the base chance as follow:


Chance: Value - (mlvl-qlvl)/divisor


The value and divisor values are found in the itemratio.txt file.


This is the base chance. That is, there is a 1 in Chance probability of the game picking that quality. As before it starts with unique, then rare, set, magic, superior and normal (and if nothing picked so far, it is a low quality item). Please remember what I said about minimum magic quality above when we looked at item types, if the picked quality was lower, it will be pushed up to magic (or downgraded to normal if applicable).


Now, the above calculated value is the Base chance, it is modified as:


(Chance*128) - Chance*128*cx/1024


This is the modified chance (ModChance), where cx is the value for unique I mentioned above (unique column or cu value, whatever was the highest for checking for unique and so on). This is only done for unique, rare, set and magic check.


To calculate the final chance (FinalChance), we then do:


ModChance * 100/(100 + MF*X)


Where MF is your own Magic Find number (and if it is a minion making the kill, the sum of the minions MF and your own MF) and X is a modifier as follow:


Unique: 1/5 Rare: 1/3 Set: 1/3 Magic: 1


Thus the MF is only one fifth for unique items and one third for set and rare items. It has full effect for magic check. This step is again not performed for superior and normal check for obvious reasons.


Note that in 1.08 open (and 1.07) the above does NOT apply. There, the game simply subtracted the MF value. As the Chance is multiplied by 128 earlier (for extra precision), MF was basically useless. This has been fixed server side and will be added with the 1.09 patch. The lower effectiveness for unique, set and rare should also be implemented with the 1.09 patch. I have no idea if it is implemented on the servers though (or if it will be tweaked more).
Click to expand...
The essential part comes close to the end. First off he describes 4d) and then in the last paragraph he says that in "open" (i.e. SP) it doesn't apply. He claims that the game simply subtracts the MF value which we know is wrong for 1.07 but in 1.08 should be the way it works offline.

So let's do steps 1-3) first:
1) We have rarity = 800, div = 6, qlvl = 89 and mlvl = 93 so that Chance = 800.
2) Chance = 128*800.
3) Chance = 128*800-[128*800*800/1024] = 128*800-[800*100*(128*8/1024)] = 128*800-[800*100] = 28*800

So Chance = 22400 after step 3. If we don't have any MF this is the final chance in all variants 4a) through 4d). To get the final chance we divide 128 by that number and multiply it with the chance to get an Archon Staff. We get a chance of 1 in 7771593 at 0 MF which again is consistent with ATMA, so far everything syncs up.

But now:
ATMAStormspire.png
However with the four different versions of the algorithm I get:
  • 4a) 1 in 7424646 (1.08 SP)
  • 4b) 1 in 4649078 (1.07 SP)
  • 4c) 1 in 2590299 (1.09 SP)
  • 4d) 1 in 2590531 (1.08 Realms?)
Weirdly enough the last two are very close but remember that 1000/5 is the same as EMF(1000) for uniques.

So ATMA doesn't implement the 1.09, the 1.07 or the 1.08 Realms way of calculating quality chances. But it also doesn't implement the 1.08 offline formula.

I hope I made a mistake somewhere, can somebody check the numbers? Looking at @m4ke specifically :D
 
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Damn.

This is a dii.net quote I found on another forum about 1.07/1.08 MF:
MF was completely (completely) different pre-LoD. There were no treasure classes, no boss bonuses, I don't know how it worked exactly but it was nothing like now.

The current system has indeed only changed in places since 1.07 came out.

The information you quote from the 1.07 guide is correct. The base chance back then was 1000 for uniques, 500 for class-specific. The guide mentions the ilvl-qlvl modification.

The equation is combining two steps. I might as well explain the whole thing in depth...

Start with your base chance (from itemratio.txt - this chance has changed every patch, was 1000 in 1.07, 800 in 1.08, 500 in 1.09 and now 400 in 1.10).

Subtract (ilvl-qlvl)/divisor. Divisor is also from itemratio.txt and has changed.

Multiply by 128. This is just done for extra precision. Instead of storing X and your chance being 1/X, they store 128*X and your chance is 128/(128*X). That is why all the 128s in the equation you quote.

The next three steps have not always been the same. I will list them, then explain the history.

A) Apply boss bonus. Each monster has a bonus to finding each quality type called Cx. This is a number between 0 and 1024. Higher is better. It is applied by this equation:
new chance = chance - (chance * Cx / 1024)
Effectively that improves the chance by 1024/(1024-Cx). For act bosses, Cx has always been 983, which turns into roughly a 25 times bonus.

B) Apply MF. The way they have done this changed dramatically early on (because the way they first did it was, to put it mildly, rteraded).
Originally (1.07) they simply subtracted your MF*X as your equation lists. X was 1/4/9 in norm/NM/Hell respectively.

If you know a little maths you can see that this results in a curve which starts off really flat and then suddenly curves up steeply (the opposite of what happens now, more or less). For example, if your odds are 1 in 100 and you add 1 MF, you get 1 in 99 - almost the same. If your odds are 1 in 100 and you add 50 MF, you get 1 in 2 - much better. If your odds are 1 in 100 and you add 99 MF then it becomes automatic! This resulted in there being critical values of MF that would always force certain monsters to drop a given quality, set, rare, even unique - though you could only reach the unique critical on Hell bosses. However, the cost of that was that at low levels MF was completely useless.

In 1.08, they "fixed" this, sorta. They reduced the difficulty bonus to 1/2/3 instead of 1/4/9. Now, you couldn't reach the critical points anymore. But it still sucked at low levels though. So in 1.08, you might as well forget MF altogether.

In 1.09 they fixed it properly, and it is unchanged in 1.10. MF is now diminished through a formula like
effective MF = MF * 250 / (MF + 250)
The 250 value is only for uniques, there are others for set and rare.
It is then applied by
new chance = chance * 100 / (100 + effective MF)
Which means if you have 100 effective MF (which is 167 actual MF), you exactly halve your 1 in "chance" number, ie doubling your chances.

C) The min chance cap. This was only brought in in 1.09, and has only been working since 1.10. In itemratio.txt is another value for each quality which is a minimum value for your chance number. The idea is that if you have a billion MF they didn't want you to get uniques every drop (even though the diminishing returns actually already achieves this, meh). So here they simply say if the bonuses have reduced your chance below the cap, set it to the cap.

Unfortunately, when they wrote the caps into 1.09 they forgot about Mr 128. All their caps in that version were the actual cap they wanted when it should have been 128 times the cap. For example, they wanted unique chance to never be better than 1/50, but because of the 128 scaling, putting 50 there meant your odds were never better than 128/50. Not surprisingly.
They fixed this in 1.10, now the cap for uniques is 6400 (128/6400 = 1/50) as they intended.

Now, like I said the order changed too.
In 1.07 and 1.08 it went A then B, giving the equation you quote.
In 1.09 they added the cap, but the cap was only supposed to affect MF and not rob you of your boss bonus. So since then it has been B then C then A.

Finally your actual chance is 128/(total chance) as produced by all the steps.
Click to expand...
There it says that for 1.08 the formula is:
  • 4e) Chance = Chance-X*MF; X is 1 for normal, 2 for NM and 3 for Hell
And if I use this formula I get the ATMA chance!

Probably very wrong still, the quoted post also lists the wrong qualityfactors for class-specific uniques, so...
 
Hi 1.08 players, do the current players have a list of 1.08 runewords that are active in SP? The intro thread does not mention any of the 1.08 runewords at all, thanks

Edit : Nevermind, I found the answer in the stickies above
 
Last edited:
Is there something I should know about WW in 1.08? 1.07 had some weird thing but how about 1.08?

I'm sending WW barb to 1.08 Travincal to farm Tal runes. Is BK set good enough for that? And socketed with what?

Thanks.

m4ke
 
@nulio got one for his PvP Bowazon, but I think he is the only one. Basically other than that, don’t bother.
 
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I also found a 1.08 HLW and gave it away, but I don't remember who I gave it to. Perhaps froz?

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Does crafting in 1.08 use the ilvl of the rune? I'm interested in trying to craft fcr amulets if I can forward my Tal runes from 1.07, but if the ilvl of the rune is used in the formula then probably I will just use them to trade as spirit sets.
 
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ziambe said:
Why anyone would wanna trade 30% frw for 20% ias...? Especially when you can get 5% frw on small charms in 1.08 and 1.09
Click to expand...
Idk, ww barbs don't need off weapon IAS so it's really good for them at least. It's popular class/spec so it counts I guess. Shapers too, even if it's less popular.

Both me and nulio ran math long ago and it turns out it's best on pvp style bowazons as well. You get roughly 1.4% dps and extra resistances if you use it over Cat's Eye. Both have FRW and 1.08 HLW is superior because of other stats, while 20 IAS from regular HLW doesn't matter at all because you already hit desired IAS breakpoints without extra HLW IAS (either 65 diamond or 45 matbow iirc).
It's very cool item that doesn't really justify the time invested, much like aforementioned 5 frw charms (plain ones are bleh and good mods are too rare on them).
jimsfriend said:
I also found a 1.08 HLW and gave it away, but I don't remember who I gave it to. Perhaps froz?
Click to expand...
Correct <3
 
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frozzzen said:
Idk, ww barbs don't need off weapon IAS so it's really good for them at least. It's popular class/spec so it counts I guess. Shapers too, even if it's less popular.

Both me and nulio ran math long ago and it turns out it's best on pvp style bowazons as well. You get roughly 1.4% dps and extra resistances if you use it over Cat's Eye. Both have FRW and 1.08 HLW is superior because of other stats, while 20 IAS from regular HLW doesn't matter at all because you already hit desired IAS breakpoints without extra HLW IAS (either 65 diamond or 45 matbow iirc).
It's very cool item that doesn't really justify the time invested, much like aforementioned 5 frw charms (plain ones are bleh and good mods are too rare on them).
Click to expand...
fair enough! :)

d2lover said:
ah ok, has 1.08 5 frw scs too?
Click to expand...
yes
 
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I've started working on 1.08 more seriously, seeking to nail down some stuff...

First up, sockets from the cube... wasn't 100% certain until now, but just like 1.07, if you cube something that spawns a socket affix, it doesn't get sockets (only formulae that explicitly give sockets actually do)
NoSockets108.jpg

I also looked at merc xp a bit... 1.08 increased xp requirements for merc levels by a lot... a lvl98 1.07 barb merc has a bit over 3,200,000xp, which is only enough for ~lvl50 in 1.08, and xp requirements jump wildly at certain levels (@m4ke posted about this last year). To really step up the pain, 1.08 also introduced a hard cap on merc xp/kill (500, a bit more for champs/uniques)...and multiplayer made no difference, at least for two or three players ingame (can't check higher psettings at the moment, but will soon...) Just to compare, I took a rushed sorc in 1.07 whose rogue merc was level62 to NM Frigid Highlands... she got ~7500xp/kill, at lvl65 I took the waypoint to NM WSK, where she got ~13500xp/kill, then lvl67 hell blood moor, back down to ~7500, so I jumped to Hell Arcane Sanctuary (~17500), and finally hell WSK at lvl70 (~28000)... this all took less time than it took me to write it :p
I did also quickly check multiplayer...2 player lvl72 rogue on hell blood moor got ~13500, 3player ~15500.

Third...ATMA... Well, I knew that ATMA sometimes threw an error when you forwarded a character from 1.07 who had crafted gear, and always if you Safety crafted a ring (I thought it was because there is no affix for +Vit, which all Safety rings have...), but it's worse than that: ALL crafted rings have a chance of making ATMA throw an error, every time the character file is reloaded (so constantly in MP), and so do several other crafted items: boots & weapons seem to be most frequent, occasionally gloves & belts, and a few amulets... also a rare circlet and once a rare armor that didn't throw an error, but crashed ATMA every time I moused over it...

This is an ATMA problem... its obviously not quite compatible with 1.08! All of these items were created in the game, and cause no issues in the game... its only when you attempt to open the character in ATMA that there's a problem. There's something about crafted items in 1.08 that ATMA isn't coded for, and its solution is to throw an error and strip off all the properties of the item except the base, the name, and the fact that it is a crafted item!

There really needs to be a better muling program for 1.08 (@silospen, that would be super awesome!), but until then, my strong suggestion to anyone planning to do any crafting in 1.08 is to turn OFF autosave in ATMA... when you get an error, click yes, then OK for every item it errored on, then check which item(s). Close the character WITHOUT saving, then reopen the character in game and see if the item(s) are worth saving... if so, you may want to use old school muling to move the item off your character, as its likely to keep screwing up ATMA... if not, get rid of it... BTW, to add to the bugginess, ATMA will not always error on an item, so you can keep closing and reopening the character until it doesn't (assuming you turned off autosave), but some items (rings, especially safety rings) will usually error, others are more random... if ATMA doesn't error when you open the character, then you can mule normally, but the next time you open the character, it may (or may not) error again, until you move off the item causing it to error, and I'd avoid putting an item thats caused ATMA to error into a stash, as it can be a PITA to find and remove later...use mules for such items.

You can 'fix' a problematic item by putting the item on a mule and forwarding it to 1.09+ where ATMA is fully compatible and will stop annoying you with errors (because the problem isn't the item, its ATMA in 1.08 :mad:)


OK, enuff complaining... I'm having fun, just resent the necessity to return to old school muling (I'm crafting a lot, in case you haven't guessed...)

One of the big draws to crafting in 1.08 is the caster amulet formulae that offers a 1-15%FCR automod, potentially getting up to 25%FCR on an amulet... but I don't recall anyone ever actually showing one off...soooo,
and the answer is yes, yes they can!!​
108ammy24fcr.jpg
Code: 
Grim Emblem
Amulet
Required Level: 54
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0x2999d37
+2 to Strength
+19 to Mana
+5 to Minimum Damage
Regenerate Mana 11%
Poison Resist +10%
24% Faster Cast Rate
It's pretty crappy, actually, but its the first I've rolled over 20%FCR... the best one I've rolled yet that has more than automod FCR is this one:
108_BeastScarab.jpg
Code: 
Beast Scarab
Amulet
Required Level: 62
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0x41013bf9
+60 to Life
+12 to Mana
Regenerate Mana 5%
8% Mana stolen per hit
19% Faster Cast Rate
+2 to Druid Skill Levels

But my favorite (so far) has got to be this one... I've mostly been doing lesser crafts, but this is a greater craft, rolled with a Lum from hellforge... great rolls, no FCR beyond the automod, but 15% actually works pretty good for Necro/Pally:
108_StormGorget.jpg
Code: 
Storm Gorget
Amulet
Required Level: 57
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 99
Fingerprint: 0x278417f4
+20 to Strength
+19 to Dexterity
+58 to Life
+22 to Mana
Regenerate Mana 21%
15% Faster Cast Rate
+2 to Poison and Bone Skills (Necromancer Only)

WoRG
 
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I've probably asked and had answered this here before, but in 1.08 is rune ilvl used in crafting? I have some 1.07 Tal runes that I might be interested in forwarding "some day", and also might try to play a bit in 1.08 myself either at trav or pindle or drifter cavern.
 
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