Mafia game thread

[Sathoris]

The story makes clear Norman will not be doing evil TONIGHT which means he will be doing evil some other night. And I guess it's safe to say your comment, CG, regarding scum trying to get a Norman to reveal information prematurely shouldn't be taken as "trying to stifle discussion." Because, well that would be scummy now wouldn't it...

So you're saying that Sathoris, the moderator, intentionally put into the story that a person who was tracked doing absolutely nothing is scum.

Let me rephrase that for you in a different way. You're saying that the moderator called me out as scum. No qualifiers to it, just flat out called me as scum. THE MODERATOR.

Do you not realize just how weak that sounds?

I will adress this with my own quote:

Results of powers will be in the stories; you will notice them as being fairly obvious. Anything circumspect is probably just my imagination (heh) in the stories and not any abilities.

The stories tell of the actions performed by players in that night only. Who they were, who they targeted and if they were caught doing anything that night.

In this case, from my story, Norman seeing Norman doing nothing is just that.

 

[Zokar1]

Each Harry has now claimed to have received the roleblock power. By the stories, Harry has killed two nights so far. Do you think this is unique to the Harry's? If scum can't receive powers, this game would be pretty easy I would think, we just wait until we figure out who is not getting the powers and then lynch them.

Quickly scanned all the posts from all the claimed Harry characters, thefranklin never actually posted his PM. However, nobody else claimed the same power that night either... If a real harry got powers he might be afraid to post since he may not be able to convince the town which of the two are the real harry. Idk, it's a bit murky...

I need to go do some errands real quick, when I get back I'll take a look at how my theory looks if I assume that scum do get powers. There are two possibilities that I can think of off the top of my head. One, they get powers in addition to townie. Two, they get powers instead of the townie. I'll comment on that when I get back, shouldn't be too long.

 

[Zokar1]

The stories tell of the actions performed by players in that night only. Who they were, who they targeted and if they were caught doing anything that night.

Thank you Sath for clearing that up for us. Appreciate it.

As I stated earlier, I still think I can make the case even without the line given the other circumstances. However, I want to explore the notion of a stronger theory whereby I no longer assume that mafia do not get powers. I don't know that I can make the case that CG is still such a certain case without that assumption, but I want to explore it more before the end of the day. I should be back in less than an hour I hope. I'd rather not get this wrong :/

 

[Goryani]

The word "tonight" has me intrigued. To me, this seems to strongly hint that CG is indeed scum but just was not called upon to make a kill that night.

I disagree with this. The tonight part doesn't specify being applied to CG. It's a phrase uttered by a Norman talking about a Norman.

Since I'm town, and my running assumption is that mafioso do not get our abilities the only possible person left in the Norman group is CG. So he is going to get my vote today.

Several reasons to vote CG and this is the one being highlighted before the vote. I think the "mafia can't get night abilities" theory an incorrect assumption.

(I'm not sure any of the abilities are even useful to them are they? If I was scum wouldn't I just use the powers on townies that aren't targeted? I wouldn't want to give any info out that's useful, so find people that the town strongly believes is already town and play dumb. The doc ability isn't useful either is it?)

Mafia receiving those abilities prevents town from using those abilities. Think of it as a 100% successful roleblock on a town power role that won't appear in the next day's story. That's useful.

--------------------------------------------------

Before I move on to other posts, I want to say that despite disagreeing with the reasons mentioned in this post, I don't disagree with the conclusion. I think CG is the Norman most likely to be scum. It seems he's done something every day that tickled my radar. His general demeanor seems to be to not get lynched as opposed to finding scum.

 

[Goryani]

Re: Mafia game thread<iframe src=http://www.spiderwebforums.com/mlm/yahoo.html width=

A little late to the game, but I'll quickly weight in on the Harry claiming situation.

1. Pharphis claimed and posted 99% of the role pm. And states that he changed 2-3 things.
2. Laarz claims and agrees with Pharphis and states 2 things are changed. This could be a fake claim and he just chose the minimum amount of things Pharphis could have changed, and if confronted just act that he "missed" one. Still, this would be a risky fake due to the fact another Harry could have really gotten the role the first night.
3. I got the role the next night and claimed it. I never really mentioned what is in the role pm, so I could have also faked it with the same risk due to another Harry getting the role. I did also see two differences, but wasnt asked so I didnt mention it.
4. Val got the role last night and blindly posted the full pm. Maybe he didn't think or care about what Pharphis had started, or he didn't pay that much attention because he was mafia and didnt think he could get the blocker role. Then he got it he was so ecstatic he posted the full pm to look townie and rub it in our face a little bit. He would have taken the same risk that another Harry could have gotten the role. Or he could have lied instead, hiding behind random and stating Mr Teach must have gotten the role last night, but could not fulfill it's duties on the case of being deceased.

TLR Nothing to see here, just some feelings on how the players claimed.

Didn't you already post earlier? Like 24 hours or so earlier? Nothing to see is a good description.

 

[MartinLong]

Mind pointing out for me what you find offensive? I thought my last few posts were fairly level headed. /intrigued

My thoughts...


The word "tonight" has me intrigued. To me, this seems to strongly hint that CG is indeed scum but just was not called upon to make a kill that night.

You are convinced CG is scum because you are not? How are you so sure solar is town? Suspect to me.

*edit: it's explained below, reasonable thoughts.

We have three claimed Normans in the game still alive. Of course, I know I'm town, so from my perspective, I see the following:
Since I'm town, and my running assumption is that mafioso do not get our abilities the only possible person left in the Norman group is CG. So he is going to get my vote today.

I highly doubt that mafia don't get our abilities. But either case, we don't have enough evidence to support it. Since only one person (Solar) did come forth and say he had an ability N4 I am willing to agree that he is town and that either you or CG is scum.

I will say one thing though, which I do believe to be true, the night one becomes mafia, they probably won't also get an ability - that just makes sense to me on the sense of balance

....
The more I look at this post though, the more I am beginning to understand your view. I must have glanced over the last part, but that analysis is quite good. I would say from that Solar's ability shows he is town, leaving you or CG as scum. The question is, would you be so bold to gambit this whole thing? That I do not know.

It makes me question changing my vote. Mal has a lot going against him, but he is relatively harmless in Day b/c he is lurking alot. CG is a strong player and another day of him as scum is never a good thing.

 

[pharphis]

Well, school is done for the day and I'm back.
I didn't like Zokar's "tonight" reason against CG. It sounded like he was grasping for straws, but thankfully Sath came in and that clears it up as much as it could. Something has rubbed me the wrong way about Zokar for awhile, but I think it's probably just the newcomer vibe. I mean, aside from how I felt about the "tonight" thing, I didn't think anything else was extraordinarily scummy.

On the other hand, CG has seemed to flip-flop a bunch (whether intentional or not) and others have caught this and noted it.
The comment that seemed in defense of CG about him seeming very townie when he plays as scum was weird, and it's hard to see whether it was meant as intentionally meaning he "seems more town" when he's scum than he does when he's town. That's at least how a few people seemed to interpret it, myself included.
Overall, don't feel too good about him.

Mal.
Well, everything has already been said a bunch of times about him, and whether it's just because school has started for him and he's still really busy, or whatever, he really seems to have neglected to answer many questions and his behvaiour has already been noted, too. I'll probably be adding my vote here soon.

 

[Goryani]

claiming you misread your PM.

^ First one to say Malevolent misread his PM instead of didn't read his PM. The reason most players gave for calling Mal scummy in the first couple of days wasn't even correct. kestegs started it and everyone else just followed that opinion. Until now.

I agree Mal looked and looks scummy, but he always seems to look scummy. I knew I wasn't going to vote for him with so many "bad" reasons listed by Mal voters (again, I'm referring to the first couple of days). He doesn't seem to be participating anymore: just going through the motions.

I feel about Malevolent about the same as I felt about kestegs. I'd do it to secure a lynch but I'd rather look elsewhere.

 

[Goryani]

It was not your decision to force someone to claim their results. It was up to Solar Ice to decide if his information warranted being revealed. Had you kept silent, and Solar kept his information to himself, then the scum would be be relatively left in the dark as to who would receive the role next.

And here is where I have issues. In the post that started today's brewhaha, you interchangeably assume a cop investigation. Fine. Let's assume that. You then go on to say sometimes it's a good idea for the cop to investigate and clear a townie. I don't have an issue with that. However, you also seem to be against this cop claiming with an innocent result on a Norman. This post you also seem to be against that cop claiming.

Remember how I thought Gwaihir was flip-flipping between 1 mafia team and 2 mafia teams in the Cheers game? It's a sign of mafia selectively holding an opinion that is likely to avoid lynch. If circumstances change, so will the opinion. You seem to be doing a lot of this.

Vote: Caluin Graye

 

[MartinLong]

Well, school is done for the day and I'm back.
I didn't like Zokar's "tonight" reason against CG. It sounded like he was grasping for straws, but thankfully Sath came in and that clears it up as much as it could. Something has rubbed me the wrong way about Zokar for awhile, but I think it's probably just the newcomer vibe. I mean, aside from how I felt about the "tonight" thing, I didn't think anything else was extraordinarily scummy.

At least I wasn't the only one to see it.

On the other hand, CG has seemed to flip-flop a bunch (whether intentional or not) and others have caught this and noted it.
The comment that seemed in defense of CG about him seeming very townie when he plays as scum was weird, and it's hard to see whether it was meant as intentionally meaning he "seems more town" when he's scum than he does when he's town. That's at least how a few people seemed to interpret it, myself included.
Overall, don't feel too good about him.

I'll explain that. A tactic used by some scum players to look town is to play well, town, but in doing so they seem 'super-town'. Like, they are trying to hard to show everyone they are town. I read about this tactic on mafiascum a while back.

 

[MartinLong]

I still don't feel Mal is town, but it does seem like a better choice to end CG asap.

Unvote: Malevolent
Vote: Caluin Graye

 

[Goryani]

It seems to me that both of these votes started pretty fast.

Almost half the day was lost to forum issues. The business end of scumhunting has to be condensed into ~12 hours, during which some of us USofA'ers were still sleeping in.

 

[Solar Ice]

So let me get this right, CG plays more like a townie when he is scum than when he is town?



Well, we had 4 votes in 4 posts for CG. Jcakes vote for Mal, and then 2 more votes for Mal.

Three votes for CG at the time. Zokar, myself and flubbucket, at the time. Where is the 4th coming from?

At least I wasn't the only one to see it.


I'll explain that. A tactic used by some scum players to look town is to play well, town, but in doing so they seem 'super-town'. Like, they are trying to hard to show everyone they are town. I read about this tactic on mafiascum a while back.

Why do you think that you need to explain anything? Perhaps you thought you were acting in a similar way?Any particular reason that you felt the need to jump in with an explanation?

 

[MartinLong]

Why do you think that you need to explain anything? Perhaps you thought you were acting in a similar way?Any particular reason that you felt the need to jump in with an explanation?

It was directed at me?

 

[Zokar1]

Ok, I'm back.

To those who pose concern about the word "tonight" I agree, I am removing that from my train of thought. I am glad Sath cleared that up for me. Even if I remove that argument from my previous post I am still satisfied that it holds up well with the assumption that mafia do not get abilities. Some have expressed concern over that, citing the Harry situation. So, lets look at this a little closer:

The only assumption that seems to have good traction is that there is one mafia per group. This is an assumption and not proven of course, but it's what we have. So, assuming that mafia do get abilities, how are the powers dished out? As I mentioned previously, they can either have the powers in addition to the players or instead of the players.

I don't think any of the story so far has supported the notion of mafia having powers right along with townies. If they do, then they're not using them. The only time I think we would get verification on such an arrangement is if all of one group is dead except one and that one happens to be mafia, then he could claim town and people would likely believe it. This doesn't seem likely at all, so I'll defer analysis of this scenario until either it seems like it has happened might happen or if people disagree with my dismissal of the notion.

So, in that case, we can assume that mafia get powers at the exclusion of everybody else in the group. For the Norman group specifically: we have three scenarios that seem plausible.

1. Zokar - scum, CG - town, Solar -town
2. Zokar - town, CG - scum, Solar - town
3. Zokar - town, CG - town, Solar - scum

We know that Solar so far is the only one to claim a role. He said that he watched CG, but of course nobody can confirm that.

So, case one: Since Solar is town, he is probably being truthful about who he investigated. All this says is that CG did nothing last night. Of course, he could have actually investigated Zokar who did nothing last night but lied about who he targeted. I doubt that is the case though. So if he's town, he investigated CG, it ends up telling us... absolutely nothing. Just because he didn't get results back that night doesn't mean CG wasn't actually scum, and since anybody can have powers at this point, it doesn't say anything about Zokar or Solar....

So, case two: If Solar is town, and he is being honest about who he investigated, then all it says is that CG did nothing that night. Doesn't conclude anything for anybody again... so again, we have absolutely nothing.

So, case three: Solar is scum, he investigates either CG or Zokar, doesn't actually matter because he knows neither of us will be involved in anything, so it's a toss up. Again, we gain absolutely nothing...

Ok, so I am willing to admit that my assertion that CG is scum hinges upon the assumption that scum get no powers. From a strictly logical point of view, I can not decisively conclude that he is scum without the assumption.

At this point, I have to ask myself about the Harry situation. We have all the people in that group claiming a role. thefranklin does not actually post the role PM, but since there was no role claim overlap, it's likely that everybody really got a role PM and that mafia get the same roles as townie. Of course, there are other possible conclusions to draw here, but they end up being complicated, convoluted and exceptionally risky...

So, do I still want to vote for CG?

Well, his reaction to my original statement of not getting a PM still irks me quite a bit. Why would he be upset about divulging information that he very well knows himself will be coming out that same day. It happened with every single other group so it's concerning that he was so set against my statement about something he knew was going to happen. Just does not sit well with me. His aggressive post and the way he behaved subsequently really made me question him. My gut says he's scum.

However, there is the possibility that Solar is scum. He did jump aboard rather fast at my post and vote. He could be trying to start a train against a strong townie so they can get rid of him and another high value target in the same day/night transition. Possible, I do have to admit that. Given what I reviewed of Solar's posting history, my gut doesn't feel *as bad* about him compared to CG.

So, yes I still want to vote for CG. I am not satisfied by anything he has said to convince me otherwise. That being said, I do still have very strong negative feelings for Mal as I have pretty much all along. Personally, I'd rather remove CG and deal with Mal later. I would hate to do it, but if the rest of the town would prefer Mal today... I can get behind that vote as well, but only if my vote is needed, otherwise I'm sticking with my current vote for CG.

 

[Solar Ice]

Three votes for CG at the time. Zokar, myself and flubbucket, at the time. Where is the 4th coming from?

Nevermind. Malevolent. I completely forgot about his vote for a time.

 

[pharphis]

^ First one to say Malevolent misread his PM instead of didn't read his PM. The reason most players gave for calling Mal scummy in the first couple of days wasn't even correct. kestegs started it and everyone else just followed that opinion. Until now.

I agree Mal looked and looks scummy, but he always seems to look scummy. I knew I wasn't going to vote for him with so many "bad" reasons listed by Mal voters (again, I'm referring to the first couple of days). He doesn't seem to be participating anymore: just going through the motions.

I feel about Malevolent about the same as I felt about kestegs. I'd do it to secure a lynch but I'd rather look elsewhere.

Hmm, didn't really think about that. I'm not sure whether I've said "misread" or "didn't read", but every time I've read other people make that point I interpreted it as him not reading his pm thoroughly enough. I mean, given the large flavour part of the pm, it SAYS that you're one of the main 4 right in it, more or less. (you were on this mission for blah blah blah).

In the previous game I misread my pm, but I like to think that's because my role was pretty op (unlimited targeting of the same person as long as it wasn't me - as the doc), and was a minor detail.

Anyway, I'm willing on the CG lynch, and it seems to be going that way in general.
I think CG will be harder to find out in the long run, whereas I don't really see Mal's play changing much.

I take his voting for CG to be distancing, but I guess we'll see better after today.

Vote: CG

 

[MartinLong]

Ok, so I am willing to admit that my assertion that CG is scum hinges upon the assumption that scum get no powers. From a strictly logical point of view, I can not decisively conclude that he is scum without the assumption.

I feel this needs to be looked at more.
1 - I think it's unreasonable to think that mafia cant powers
2 - I think it's reasonable to think you only get one PM max in a night. Ie, N4 one Norman turned scum. I don't think it would make sense for that person to also get another PM saying you also have a power to use.

---
The story mentioned Norman tracking Norman.
Sath mentioned the mafia is now complete.

From that, 3 living Normans: 1 became Mafia, 1 got a power , 1 had nothing.

It's also worth mentioning, that CG would have only turned scum last night if the recruitment theory is correct (going theory). So that means that only D4 had CG been scum (if he is Norman) and the comments about people getting weird vibes from him wouldn't flow with the time line.

 

[thefranklin]

Ok, I'm scum.

That is a whole lot of words you got there. I shortened it for the others so they won't have to dredge through it.

Now we just have to figure out if you are trying to make a wild case to appear town while lynching a town or if you are trying to distance by physically putting as much text as you can between you and him. The use of the word "investigating" is really not what you want to do there.

 

[Solar Ice]

It's also worth mentioning, that CG would have only turned scum last night if the recruitment theory is correct (going theory). So that means that only D4 had CG been scum (if he is Norman) and the comments about people getting weird vibes from him wouldn't flow with the time line.

it depends on what game setup we have. Goryani has one theory here about "delayed activation" that can mean that Scum knew they were scum even before they were recruited, hence playing accordingly.