[Tournament idea][Interest & Review][V2.2] March of the Doomed

[Babyhell]

Ruleset edited, in version 2.

Update of V2:
> Birth damnation added, see 2.b.
> Precision added on reset, see 4.

Still to be handled: Hell difficulty to have known situation for early Hell and avoid a complete disaster during the late game. Could be to have the Hell rolls made at the beginning of Act 1.

 

[Vang]

And while I like complex rules it can be tedious to constantly look up rules. I noticed that most forumites nowadays prefer easy/short rules and scoring systems over complex systems.

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Anyways, please take these thoughts as my thoughts only and not as "it is best done this way" - I will be happy with whatever will be the final version because I like the idea in general

This top line sums up tournaments. I thought my Weapons of the Commoner and the Blessing of the King Tournament was really cool, but it required a fair amount of paying attention.

The question really is do you want super high participation? Or do you want to make a cool tournament that you and a few other forumites partake in? Either way what you decide is up to you and as long as you are enjoying it, well that is good!

Seems like there is a few hard points to figure out and that really will help sum up the difficulty of the tournament, I plan on participating regardless, just not sure whether I'm going to start it before 2.4.

 

[Babyhell]

The question really is do you want super high participation? Or do you want to make a cool tournament that you and a few other forumites partake in?

The initial setup pretty much answers...that will not be mainstream/easy play, so I am more about building up a tournament different from existing ones to add something, even if it ends with a few.

And it will give me a bit more of D2R play too

For mainstream, I could go for a LOTR tournament, 20 hours of areas of your choice, score based upon a top 5 jewelry (rings + amulets). The SoJ to Annihilus in D2R SP could pretty much hold it to a wider part of the community, and it will still be interesting to run Travincal and get rocks as a bonus, or straight NM Andy has its chances.

 

[Babyhell]

Anyway, that's another story, for now the Hell thingy has to be sorted out to avoid late non controlled failures.

For now my ideas are:
- rolls the four Hell damnations at act 1 Hell start, that will still enter in effect after act boss kills. Thus you will know the available late game skills and be able to build up on it
- allow the non weapon item sacrifice mechanic to be used after each Hell rolls to have a controlled damnation
- have a 6-tiers set of damnation at start, hence you will add only one damnation per tier, instead of risking two chances on your main skill (2x 1-12, and 2x 18-30)

Any input on those options @Vang @Grisu @Dazliare @PhineasB ?

 

[Vang]

I like the idea of 6 tiers of damnation at the start followed by 1 each act in Normal (act 5 with the option of an equipment slot) and Grisu's idea of the Seal unlocking a random skill, but give a bit of control by making it a 2 tier range (Use the seal to allow access a locked 24 or 30 tier skill, or 1 and a 30, doesn't matter whatever the player chooses).

To make the Damnation be able to pick and already chosen skill I would say have a threshold of 10 locked skills. I think it could be really weird that luck fell on your side and you only had 8 or so total locks.

 

[Grisu]

I like the idea of 6 tiers of damnation at the start followed by 1 each act in Normal (act 5 with the option of an equipment slot)

That would mean 10-11 locked skills after normal, 14-16 after NM and 18-22 locked skills for Act V Hell...That sounds a bit extreme xD Or did I misinterpret what you meant?

@Babyhell: with the seals (no matter if you use your idea of immediately using them, thus protecting a skill permanently or my suggestion of a reroll, that can be used later in the tournament) and the Act V rule you should be perfectly able to have a viable skill set for Hell IMO without rolling Hell skills before the start of Hell and without allowing rerolls for item slots after each Hell damnation. Rolling damnations before Hell difficulty or rolling a set of tier damnations before the start of the tournament sounds again very much like Random Tournament.

I like the "get damned while you move along" theme very much as it is. It is also very RPG-like and forces you to adapt instead of simply planning ahead. Also, with a bad initial roll on multiple skills at the beginning of the tournament, you might be more easily discouraged to play the character. But with the one damnation per Act boss defeated rule it is more like this after every boss fight: "Come on, please no damnation on [skill X]! Come on!" And if/when you really get screwed, it will only be after defeating Normal and NM. By then, you are far more attached to your character and far more likely to try to beat the game nonetheless.

I don't know if I got my point across...rereading my post I don't know if I was able to properly express my thoughts on the feeling/flavor of the different approaches to the tournament?

 

[Vang]

That would mean 10-11 locked skills after normal, 14-16 after NM and 18-22 locked skills for Act V Hell...That sounds a bit extreme xD Or did I misinterpret what you meant?

@Babyhell: with the seals (no matter if you use your idea of immediately using them, thus protecting a skill permanently or my suggestion of a reroll, that can be used later in the tournament) and the Act V rule you should be perfectly able to have a viable skill set for Hell IMO without rolling Hell skills before the start of Hell and without allowing rerolls for item slots after each Hell damnation. Rolling damnations before Hell difficulty or rolling a set of tier damnations before the start of the tournament sounds again very much like Random Tournament.

I like the "get damned while you move along" theme very much as it is. It is also very RPG-like and forces you to adapt instead of simply planning ahead. Also, with a bad initial roll on multiple skills at the beginning of the tournament, you might be more easily discouraged to play the character. But with the one damnation per Act boss defeated rule it is more like this after every boss fight: "Come on, please no damnation on [skill X]! Come on!" And if/when you really get screwed, it will only be after defeating Normal and NM. By then, you are far more attached to your character and far more likely to try to beat the game nonetheless.

I don't know if I got my point across...rereading my post I don't know if I was able to properly express my thoughts on the feeling/flavor of the different approaches to the tournament?

The way I understood it was the initial 6 meant no locks in Hell.

You have 6+5 or 4 and 1 unseal for a total of 9 or 10 after normal.
Then another 5 or 4 in NM and 1 unseal to keep the total at 12-14.

@Grisu I understand your point perfectly on how unlocking as you go really forces you to adapt, I eluded to that in a previous post. And using a respect means it my actually be worse off, so your adaptability to the forces at large is going to be key.

I know there are a few rolls in random tournament that myself and other has had that we play a bit haphazardly because it just isn't a fun character and unless we get to a higher point and can easily see a Barbarian starting out getting Bash as a locked skill and a player being like yeah..umm I'm not playing a Leap Barb and die in act1., next please!

 

[Babyhell]

@Grisu @Vang I was more thinking about the 6-tiers set made at the start...of Hell.

Hence after facing the random damnations in Normal, then in Nightmare, and succeed, you have the big punch at the start of Hell... while still being able to create a build for the difficulty.

So it would be as follows:
- Birth damnation: the only damnation that will forbid a skill forever
=> Damnation count: 1
- Normal journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 6 skills or 5 + 1 item, and one Royal seal available
- Nightmare journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 11 skills or 9 + 2 items, and two Royal seals available
- Hell journey: 6-tiers set of skills damned
=> Damnation count: 17 skills or 15 + 2 items, and two Royal seals available.
Tougher, but you know what you can do at start.

Lucky if no respec at this point... BUT at this point in the journey, seals can be used to unlock desired skills instead of protecting an early build, that could be more interesting.

However the total number seems a bit high that way (half of the skills), even if the repartition is different between tiers. The knowledge of the situation at the beginning of Hell bothers me more than the initial damnation, which one is more story related for me.

I will remove the birth damnation in such case.

 

[Vang]

@Grisu @Vang I was more thinking about the 6-tiers set made at the start...of Hell.

Hence after facing the random damnations in Normal, then in Nightmare, and succeed, you have the big punch at the start of Hell... while still being able to create a build for the difficulty.

So it would be as follows:
- Birth damnation: the only damnation that will forbid a skill forever
=> Damnation count: 1
- Normal journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 6 skills or 5 + 1 item, and one Royal seal available
- Nightmare journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 11 skills or 9 + 2 items, and two Royal seals available
- Hell journey: 6-tiers set of skills damned
=> Damnation count: 17 skills or 15 + 2 items, and two Royal seals available.
Tougher, but you know what you can do at start.

Lucky if no respec at this point... BUT at this point in the journey, seals can be used to unlock desired skills instead of protecting an early build, that could be more interesting.

However the total number seems a bit high that way (half of the skills), even if the repartition is different between tiers. The knowledge of the situation at the beginning of Hell bothers me more than the initial damnation, which one is more story related for me.

I will remove the birth damnation in such case.

Go with the initial plan of rolling between each act then? I was under impression it was at beginning of creation, not Hell, in which case I think it would be better to just stick with the rolling between each act.

Although it seems like a lot of skills, I don't feel half the skills gone is a big deal.

 

[D4di56lu3]

A confession of sorts.

I have been following this thread closely and so far, I am still most charmed by the initial post for review of the tournament.
The idea that the champion wishing to vanquish evil goes in pure and clean and loses parts of his/her self for each atrocity being faced, hollowing out who he/she could become...

Being a RP person by heart, it is not the victories that are remembered most, but the spectacular near-misses and failures. Both comedic relief and pain at the loss of a character is part of the story I wish to live and tell.

Thus the progressive fall of the protagonist and the inbalance of life (RNG) which we all live and play, is just part of this "Journament".

and yes, I'm a sucker for hard grindy fights and understand not all are equally happy to indulge in spectacular failure

 

[Babyhell]

Sticking to rolling between each act would give:

- Birth damnation: the only damnation that will forbid a skill forever
=> Damnation count: 1

- Normal journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 6 skills or 5 + 1 item, and one Royal Seal available

- Nightmare journey: one skill damned after each boss, with the possibility to avoid Baal's one
=> Damnation count: 11 skills or 10 skills + 1 item or 9 + 2 items, and two Royal Seals available

- Hell journey: one skill damned after each boss
=> Final damnation count for Act 5 Hell: 15 skills or 14 skills + 1 item or 13 + 2 items, and two Royal Seals available

Due to the unknown kept for Hell rolls, I would keep the Royal Seals as strong damnation cancellations instead of having rerolls.

At least the name fits the rules..!

I will make some a couple of simulations per class to see what it gives before launching. Rolls will be:

Time         Tiers  1-X roll range  [Barbarian]

No Andariel: 01-12  1-15            [1-17]
   Duriel:   01-12  1-14            [1-16]
   Mephisto: 18-30  1-15            [1-13]
   Diablo:   18-30  1-14            [1-12]
   Baal:     24-30  1-10 (-0 to -2) [1-9 (-0 to -2)]

NM Andariel: 01-12  1-13            [1-15]
   Duriel:   01-12  1-12            [1-14]
   Mephisto: 18-30  1-12            [1-10]
   Diablo:   18-30  1-11            [1-9]
   Baal:     24-30  1-9 (-0 to -4)  [1-8 (-0 to -4)]

He Andariel: 01-12  1-11            [1-13]
   Duriel:   01-12  1-10            [1-12]
   Mephisto: 18-30  1-9             [1-7]
   Diablo:   18-30  1-8             [1-6]

 

[skoolbus]

I'd be interested in participating, this is a pretty new concept, and I have wanted to try a complete shift in build mid way through a tournament, but never done it. I think that as long as you are selective with your respecs, every character should have some sort of hell viable build that can be made to work if you're open to working with what you're dealt. If you're deadset on being a blizzball sorc when you start, then I think this tournament will be agonizing. I also think this would really provide a showcase for people to use the invariable 'amazing drops that don't fit your build' commonly found during a tournament. You may be forced to switch builds and now you can use it!

As far as suggestions, my one gripe with the rules is having to have someone else roll for you. It will be a major inconvenience and with the slower pace of typical tournaments, will kill people's momentum having to wait for someone to roll after every act (especially end of normal and NM). I suspect some individual's playing time is limited to just one or two days a week, so they could power through 3 or 4 acts, but if having to wait for someone to roll them, it might be a few weeks before playing resumed. I think it very unlikely anyone cheats, since the only real prize is a sense of accomplishment and fun, and if that's their idea of fun, then so be it.

 

[Babyhell]

As far as suggestions, my one gripe with the rules is having to have someone else roll for you. It will be a major inconvenience and with the slower pace of typical tournaments, will kill people's momentum having to wait for someone to roll after every act

Hmmm... that makes sense. I like the community interactions caused by those rolls, but true the act rythm can be something problematic.

I can make it optional but encouraged, good point, thanks!

 

[D4di56lu3]

If it is optional, how about these two routes:
1. The forum interaction with request for damnation roll
2. Pre-rolled damnations at character start-up, with choice of weapon or damnation at Baal up-front/before being rolled. The pre-rolled damnations could be in spoilers to keep the excitement high
Perhaps this pre-roll could be done for each difficulty at request?

 

[Babyhell]

In my opinion the pre-roll system makes is too close to Random Tournaments.

I was somehow fine with it for Hell only, seeing this last difficulty as one global fight versus evil. But the (interesting?) mechanic in this tournament is related to making choices...and have the chance to lose big parts at bad timings.

Having the knowledge at start of each difficulty of available skills breaks the dynamic.

True it could be set in spoilers, etc, and it then will be up to the players to handle the fact to not have a read before the defined times. But in that case, the responsibility of the player is the same as rolling himself and respecting his roll results: that's why I am fine with @skoolbus proposal, and iirc there are other tournaments that relies on self random rolls and they worked pretty well.

I am feeling that this self roll possibility keeps the dynamic better than pre-rolls, so I'll stick with it.

Hope I explained here my point of view clearly enough on why I make this choice, but the idea you proposed are more in line with what made me start this tournament idea...the Random Tournaments ;-)

 

[Babyhell]

On another topic, I started the simulations, for now two rolls, that I looked with Paladin and Amazon skill tabs.

> Zeal + Holy Shock (roll 1) or Fanaticism (roll 2) without Holy Shield for both rolls. Need of Royal Seals, and Might damnation cuts the whole thing, making it somehow impossible to rely on auras...tough.
> Frozen arrow + Magic Arrow with
==> Decoy for first roll
==> Charged Strike fit second roll

I may remove the birth damnation, last rolls really were tough on the last spots, there's a lot of pressure on 24-30. I will have to compare also with item damnations taken into account, those were made full skill damnation only.

 

[Grisu]

On another topic, I started the simulations, for now two rolls, that I looked with Paladin and Amazon skill tabs.

> Zeal + Holy Shock (roll 1) or Fanaticism (roll 2) without Holy Shield for both rolls. Need of Royal Seals, and Might damnation cuts the whole thing, making it somehow impossible to rely on auras...tough.
> Frozen arrow + Magic Arrow with
==> Decoy for first roll
==> Charged Strike fit second roll

I may remove the birth damnation, last rolls really were tough on the last spots, there's a lot of pressure on 24-30. I will have to compare also with item damnations taken into account, those were made full skill damnation only.

I somehow don't understand your simulation rolls: What did you roll? How many rolls? I am confused You mean that thePaladin hat a lock on Holy Shock, Zeal, Might and Holy Shield?

I agree on removing the birth damnation though

 

[Babyhell]

@Grisu I'm on my phone, so I can't really format things nicely

The skills given were what could be built when using a respec and the two seals after all rolls done (Diablo Hell killed), which is not significant on the dynamic, but can be a view of end game limitations. So it seems workable, but given the damned skills locking for the remaining of the tree branch, Paladin seems to rely on Zeal, as there's a lot of dependencies. It could end differently when looking at the dynamic, but this view reveals that.

For me it starts to give the input that for Paladins, late game builds shall be built from the start pretty early, keeping Royal Seals to secure the main skill, but in the case of unused Royal Seals, there's a possible security based upon Zeal.

Similarly, Valkyrie is not attainable if not secured early enough due to the many prerequisites.

To be confirmed!

 

[Vang]

It is possible with the birth damnation to hit a level 1 skill and tank a whole tree pretty much. I am personally against people rolling themselves, and understand that with this tournament comes a bit of waiting.

 

[Babyhell]

It is possible with the birth damnation to hit a level 1 skill and tank a whole tree pretty much. I am personally against people rolling themselves, and understand that with this tournament comes a bit of waiting.

No, I avoided that by setting it a 24-30 skill lvl for Birth damnation. But that puts much pressure still on those levels. As you stated at some point earlier iirc, it really seems that Baal's item damnation have to be used in order to secure end game skills.

It doesn't break the thing imo, but maybe that's just an unnecessary load.

For self rolling, that can be a separate category too, to be chosen at start if you need a self rolling journey or if, as it is encouraged, you make the journey as intended. Having others roll your dices is for me a core task of what makes the Random Tournaments so friendly, I'll definitely be on this side!