Etdlahq Memorial Bar - your shelter from forum crashes

[Ariadne]

Pharpis, I'm sure you're a smart guy and you're probably much better educated than me, but all of that does not make you the right person to tell others what to do. My post specified that. I specifically ruled out frauds or people who want to harm others, or people who just want to make money from others. This includes doctors, alternative healers, anyone. I also said that alternative healers are no doctors and that proper ones will always, always first sent you to regular doctors for diagnosis, and that alternative healing will not cure major things but will make life easier in easying small symptoms and nuissances. No idea what makes you say I said that I think alternative healers should make diagnosis, idiotic idea.

Doctors can be both benficial and harmful. Goldthru gave a good example. Over here, it's different. The medical industry is a big player but from my experience with bad diagnosis, it's very often doctors not caring, not wanting to spent a second longer on you than they have to, not wanting to look further than a quick generalisation.

Frauds, in any business, must be dealt with. But someone who sincerely wants to help people will often end up helping up people by care and attention.

Notice that this is the same point I made as I did with religion. Just because I don't belong to any church or religion doesn't mean I believe everyone else is wrong, or that it doesn't do good or that it doesn't help people. Just because it sometimes does harm, just because there are idiots who measure with two different standards (again Goldthru provided an excellent example) doesn't mean that everything about it is wrong or bad.

You can't tell and order people what to believe, what to choose, and how to live their lives, unless you're a dictator of some sort. You don't like christians forcing their beliefs onto you - then restrain from forcefeeding your believes onto others. You're welcome to disagree, but it is not a matter of I'm right and you're wrong: it's a matter of opinion, and my uneducated, peasantgirl, pragmatic opinion is worth as much as yours.

 

[pharphis]

Pharpis, I'm sure you're a smart guy and you're probably much better educated than me, but all of that does not make you the right person to tell others what to do. My post specified that. I specifically ruled out frauds or people who want to harm others, or people who just want to make money from others. This includes doctors, alternative healers, anyone.

Doctors can be both benficial and harmful. Goldthru gave a good example. Over here, it's different. The medical industry is a big player but from my experience with bad diagnosis, it's very often doctors not caring, not wanting to spent a second longer on you than they have to, not wanting to look further than a quick generalisation.

Frauds, in any business, must be dealt with. But someone who sincerely wants to help people will often end up helping up people by care and attention.

Notice that this is the same point I made as I did with religion. Just because I don't belong to any church or religion doesn't mean I believe everyone else is wrong, or that it doesn't do good or that it doesn't help people. Just because it sometimes does harm, just because there are idiots who measure with two different standards (again Goldthru provided an excellent example) doesn't mean that everything about it is wrong or bad.

You can't tell and order people what to believe, what to choose, and how to live their lives, unless you're a dictator of some sort. You don't like christians forcing their beliefs onto you - then restrain from forcefeeding your believes onto others. You're welcome to disagree, but it is not a matter of I'm right and you're wrong: it's a matter of opinion, and my uneducated, peasantgirl, pragmatic opinion is worth as much as yours.

I never suggested that I'm an authority on what people should and shouldn't do. My authority is scientific consensus (aka expert consensus) because that's the most reliable way of knowing the truth. When you want your car inspected and possibly fixed would you rather see a mechanic (expert) or a witch doctor (not expert) who claims that mechanics are all just in it for the money. The witch doctor deserves some credit, though, because a group of witch doctors all have "licensed" this witch doctor with their very own degree, but ofc unless you go through and do the training yourself you're not allowed to see what kind of education is necessary or what information is tested for on their licensing exam.

I also don't think that the majority of alt med practitioners are frauds. I believe that most of them want to help people, and believe they are helping people. I also believe that they're mostly wrong and the best evidence we have (or lack of evidence) agrees with me (the scientific consensus).

Placebo is not "helping" people as I've already said. It's unethical for doctors to give a placebo and it's unethical to charge for placebos. I understand that having a more one on one environment with your healthcare provider is ideal. The best way to do this would be to increase the number of real doctors so they have more time on average. That doesn't mean that the treatments or diagnoses provided by the one on one alt med practitioner is reliable, though. IF it is JUST the discussion that is helping, then we have therapists and support group things that people can try out instead, without all the baggage of "oh, you have leaky gut, so you should stop consuming milk or eggs or anything" and other dubious dietary or medical advice.

My argument isn't that "they sometimes do harm" but that they are more likely to do harm than doctors because their education and training is not based in reality. they're also less likely to help, for the same reason. No treatment is without risk (by definition, it affects the body) and so it's best to receive treatments that have a basis in reality than those that do not.

Actually, I'm fine with Christians discussing their beliefs with me because I've heard most of it all before already (this lies within the same hobby of scientific skepticism, more often than not) and consider it an important topic (like medicine). What I am against is non-secular laws (creationism in the science class, forced prayer and other silly things in school). I'm absolutely fine with the discussion as I think is evident by now. I can sympathize with evangelists in that they want to "save" people. I want to teach people to second-guess their reasons for believing things, because beliefs (even non-theological ones) do impact our lives and the decisions we make. I don't want people to believe in nonsense because it harms them and harms everyone else, too.

It is not simply a matter of opinion, actually. Whether something is true or not is an empirical claim (does medicine X do Y?) and it is up to scientists and doctors to answer these questions. Whether or not you decide to take a certain treatment is certainly opinion and I agree with freedom of choice on almost everything (except perhaps vaccines... measles and polio could have been eradicated by now).
Alt med practitioners are dabbling in those medicines that either 1) have been shown to NOT work (acupuncture, homeopathy, "healing crystals", etc.) or 2) have not been shown to work (virtually everything else which hasn't been studied).

 

[Ariadne]

Your post is too long.

 

[Pb_pal1]

That's what she said.

 

[Ariadne]

I know I can be longwinded, but honestly, glancing through that long post looks like not only my reasonably long post has been misunderstood or, more likely, not read, just quoted and added a long read that will take much longer than Just A Minute, and with repetition and diviation (but sadly no hesitation or I'd have buzzed).

 

[pharphis]

I know I can be longwinded, but honestly, glancing through that long post looks like not only my reasonably long post has been misunderstood or, more likely, not read, just quoted and added a long read that will take much longer than Just A Minute, and with repetition and diviation (but sadly no hesitation or I'd have buzzed).

If you read my post you would have seen that I responded directly to each of your paragraphs in succession just as we previously did. If you think I misunderstood what you said, back it up.

BTW it's only 610 words

 

[SunsetVista]

@pharphis - Your long post was good and well written.

 

[Ariadne]

If you read my post you would have seen that I responded directly to each of your paragraphs in succession just as we previously did. If you think I misunderstood what you said, back it up.

BTW it's only 610 words

*buzzes*

It is a matter of opinion.
I already stated that those who promise dangerous things should be kicked out.
So what is left is a matter of opinion. Some people are helped by alternative healers. They will feel better. You won't, so you don't go there. Nor will I tell you to go to alternative healers, you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to force your opinion on others.
And that is what it is: an opinion.

When it's been established, by proper diagnosis, that nothing serious is the matter, and that the person is still unwell, this person has the right to chose whatever he or she thinks will suit best to at least feel better. To have less cramps, to have less itchy skin, all kinds of minor issues for which sometimes alternative healing will help.
Proper herbal remedies really do help, and regular doctors will tell you so. You just have to take a high dose and not a watered down option.


Why is it you want to take away other people's opinion when there is no harm done, as you consider alternative healing not to be damaging in general? Putting beautiful gemstones on people will not heal them, nor will it make them sick. Some people believe praying helps. I don't think it does but it sure will not make it worse either. If someone believes it makes them feel better, makes that - harmless, remember! - itch feel less bad, then what is your issue? Why does your opinion, your way, your thoughts, have to be the right ones?

Personally, I don't believe in most of it. I think gemstones are a beautiful wonder of nature and I like looking at them. I am certain they don't heal a damn thing. Herbal remedies have been proven to work - after all, some regular medicins are derived from nature, but won't cure serious ailments, and we've already established that serious things should be dealt with by regular doctors.

We're talking about small, nitty gritty, nuissances, pains, itches, problems, that remain after the diagnosis that nothing serious is out of order.

You can buzz me for repetition, aswell as diviation, and while my English is not bad, it's never my first language so buzz for hesitation aswell and get the point.
Maybe Kestegs will blow the whistle after the 60 seconds have elapsed.

 

[pharphis]

*buzzes*

It is a matter of opinion.
I already stated that those who promise dangerous things should be kicked out.
So what is left is a matter of opinion. Some people are helped by alternative healers. They will feel better. You won't, so you don't go there. Nor will I tell you to go to alternative healers, you have the right to your own opinion. You do not have the right to force your opinion on others.
And that is what it is: an opinion.

When it's been established, by proper diagnosis, that nothing serious is the matter, and that the person is still unwell, this person has the right to chose whatever he or she thinks will suit best to at least feel better. To have less cramps, to have less itchy skin, all kinds of minor issues for which sometimes alternative healing will help.
Proper herbal remedies really do help, and regular doctors will tell you so. You just have to take a high dose and not a watered down option.


Why is it you want to take away other people's opinion when there is no harm done, as you consider alternative healing not to be damaging in general? Putting beautiful gemstones on people will not heal them, nor will it make them sick. Some people believe praying helps. I don't think it does but it sure will not make it worse either. If someone believes it makes them feel better, makes that - harmless, remember! - itch feel less bad, then what is your issue? Why does your opinion, your way, your thoughts, have to be the right ones?

Personally, I don't believe in most of it. I think gemstones are a beautiful wonder of nature and I like looking at them. I am certain they don't heal a damn thing. Herbal remedies have been proven to work - after all, some regular medicins are derived from nature, but won't cure serious ailments, and we've already established that serious things should be dealt with by regular doctors.

We're talking about small, nitty gritty, nuissances, pains, itches, problems, that remain after the diagnosis that nothing serious is out of order.

You can buzz me for repetition, aswell as diviation, and while my English is not bad, it's never my first language so buzz for hesitation aswell and get the point.
Maybe Kestegs will blow the whistle after the 60 seconds have elapsed.

I've bolded the strawman that I've tried to already correct. Efficacy is not a matter of opinion. A patient's right of choice is completely different and not what I have been discussing. However, patients have the right to be properly informed, of which alt med practitioners do NOT do because they don't have the tools to properly inform.

I've said that MOST things are of little risk in alt med (in moderation). That doesn't mean that they are of NO risk. Besides, receiving non-treatment instead of real treatment is harm. It is essentially self-neglect when there is an effective alternative to not use it. Similarly, children have the right to receive real treatment and not be misinformed and receive fake treatment, like 2 Canadian native american girls have recently fallen victim to:
https://www.sciencebasedmedicine.org/a-tale-of-two-children-dying-from-cancer-one-past-one-future/

BTW, while you say that "We're talking about small, nitty gritty, nuissances, pains, itches, problems, that remain after the diagnosis that nothing serious is out of order." this is actually not true. It is certainly true some of them time, and maybe the majority of the time, but a large number of alt med practitioners believe they can help with serious problems, when they cannot. the public is misled into believing it, too.

I've already provided a list of anecdotes that help illustrate the risk of alt med either through treatment, lack of real treatment or bad advice. Here it is again
http://whatstheharm.net/

 

[pharphis]

I also barely even mentioned previously that almost all of what alt med practitioners use and prescribe is not regulated unlike real medicine, thanks to lobbying. (in both Canada and the US and probably most places). So not only do they not require evidence that their medicine works, but they often don't even require that the medicine contain what the label says it does.

 

[Kestegs]

I could write a long post arguing with every point you've made, but then I'd just have to keep doing it. You have set the scientific community up to be the standard of knowledge and yourself as their representative of truth. There is no purpose in discussing something with someone that isn't willing to listen. If we are required to prove alt medicine by the standards of the scientific community then we have no chance of proving anything. Because they have intentionally set it up to not be proven.

Alt medicine works. It doesn't work for everyone in every situation, but it works.

I'll give you a small example of one of the things it's helped me with: Allergies. I've had seasonal allergies since I was a teen. They get severe at times, especially if I'm in am aggravating situation. I've taken medicines like Clairton and allegra at times. And guess what? They worked pretty well! One problem through, I'm a zombie while taking them, because they make me extremely tired. After my mom graduated from school she started treating me. One acupuncture session and some herbs and I'm good to go. Same effect as the drugs, except for that sleepiness problem. And I don't have to keep taking them all summer, just for a month or two.

And for the record she's also tried to help me with other stuff that's had no effect at all.

Edit : Darn, that was longer than I intend.

 

[TheNix]

I'm not a doctor but I do have a background in science (Chemistry) ...

I too have a background in science and I go to a chiropractor because it works for me. My daughter goes to an acupuncturist for impacted sinuses because it works for her. Whether or not it is placebo effect or not, we don't give a shit, freedom from pain is good. Much of what we do is "supernatural", hell the placebo effect is supernatural. A recent paper I read found that the placebo effect was greater if the person being treated was told the "drug" was expensive and the effect was lessened if they were told it was cheap. So there is not only is there a placebo effect going on, there is a value judgement too. We know that people can die of a "broken heart", we know the mechanism as to why they die but not what initiated the mechanism. We also know people can die through sheer willpower alone. Eating is a fundamental drive, but people have starved themselves to death for political reasons or through psychological difficulties. Will can win over a biological imperative. Then there is the rock-climber who had to cut his own arm off with a pocket knife to survive, again will power. And before you talk about adrenalin etc., if it were biochemistry alone everyone could do it. I believe in the supernatural, to me the supernatural is something what science has yet to quantify. And when it does, all the mystery will be gone from life.

 

[thefranklin]

Opens bar for everyone, drinks on me!
/Serves himself Coke. Meh, Dr Pepper is so much better.

Serves Pyro whiskey. Pharphis gets yellow snow. Posts too long! /stays out of argument.

 

[Jcakes1]

I tend to agree with pharphis as I know first hand the hoops that drug companies have to jump through to get something approved ~ it can take upto 5 years for a drug to pass through clinical trials.

That said if something works for you, great. Just be aware that not all naturapath drugs have been proven safe and be sure to let your physician no what you are taking.

Case in point my mother in law has rheumatoid arthritis and takes drugs for it. As a consequence her liver function etc is monitored. She had a fall in Hong Kong, went to see a Chinese doctor and wad given herbs. They worked, but the combination of drugs caused some liver damage. She's ok now, but just be very careful with alt meds and there interactions.

 

[pharphis]

I could write a long post arguing with every point you've made, but then I'd just have to keep doing it. You have set the scientific community up to be the standard of knowledge and yourself as their representative of truth. There is no purpose in discussing something with someone that isn't willing to listen. If we are required to prove alt medicine by the standards of the scientific community then we have no chance of proving anything. Because they have intentionally set it up to not be proven.

Alt medicine works. It doesn't work for everyone in every situation, but it works.

I'll give you a small example of one of the things it's helped me with: Allergies. I've had seasonal allergies since I was a teen. They get severe at times, especially if I'm in am aggravating situation. I've taken medicines like Clairton and allegra at times. And guess what? They worked pretty well! One problem through, I'm a zombie while taking them, because they make me extremely tired. After my mom graduated from school she started treating me. One acupuncture session and some herbs and I'm good to go. Same effect as the drugs, except for that sleepiness problem. And I don't have to keep taking them all summer, just for a month or two.

And for the record she's also tried to help me with other stuff that's had no effect at all.

Edit : Darn, that was longer than I intend.

This is insane. If the standard for evidence is "too high" for a treatment, we shouldn't lower the standard until it is acceptable for some things and not others. "big pharma" has to go through all this work and since it doesn't work for the alt med community they have to get their panties in a twist and say it's stacked against them. Well, no. Perhaps if you believe in something that proves not to be true, you should reevaluate your beliefs. That's conspiracy propaganda and the kind of thing that would be pushed by conspiracy websites like natural news (shudder).

Maybe some things do work. I argue that it's best that those things which may work are tested properly for safety and efficacy first before claiming it does through anecdotes. Anecdotes are essentially the worst kind of evidence and if anecdotes were reliable we would all have to believe in every kind of medical treatment or religious belief, for example.

I too have a background in science and I go to a chiropractor because it works for me. My daughter goes to an acupuncturist for impacted sinuses because it works for her. Whether or not it is placebo effect or not, we don't give a shit, freedom from pain is good. Much of what we do is "supernatural", hell the placebo effect is supernatural. A recent paper I read found that the placebo effect was greater if the person being treated was told the "drug" was expensive and the effect was lessened if they were told it was cheap. So there is not only is there a placebo effect going on, there is a value judgement too. We know that people can die of a "broken heart", we know the mechanism as to why they die but not what initiated the mechanism. We also know people can die through sheer willpower alone. Eating is a fundamental drive, but people have starved themselves to death for political reasons or through psychological difficulties. Will can win over a biological imperative. Then there is the rock-climber who had to cut his own arm off with a pocket knife to survive, again will power. And before you talk about adrenalin etc., if it were biochemistry alone everyone could do it. I believe in the supernatural, to me the supernatural is something what science has yet to quantify. And when it does, all the mystery will be gone from life.

The placebo effect is also greater if the person treating you is in a lab coat (or giving advice, etc.) from what I've heard. This wouldn't surprise me. I don't think that means it is supernatural. It is complicated, but I would argue that it is completely natural.
Science by definition cannot address the supernatural, and things once thought to be supernatural become natural if testable by science. I would argue that just because we don't understand the biological mechanism for a medical condition disappearing on its own or through placebo or whatever, doesn't mean it is acceptable to insert the supernatural explanation (such as "god did it"). Will power can do a lot of things, sure. That doesn't seem closely related to alt med since much of it is treatments with real costs and risks and minimal or contradictory evidence for efficacy.

Also, to everyone reading, this discussion originally started when I brought up the fact that NDs in the US (and elsewhere) are trying to increase their scope of practice to be able to prescribe drugs and other things that they should not be legally allowed to do, which is in direct contrast to what @Ariadne said about what alt med practitioners normally try to treat/are able to treat. We have these checks and balances in place so that only the properly educated and trained people can be primary care physicians, and the unscientific are lobbying and misrepresenting their credentials in order to do so. The article is very long and I didn't expect many or possibly anyone to read it, so to quote just one portion of the article:

The bottom line is that naturopathic programs do not adequately train their graduates to practice at the same level as a Physician Assistant or Nurse Practitioner.

In fact from the chart below, we see that naturopathic programs spend nearly twice the hours teaching homeopathy and botanical medicine than pharmacology. Even more interesting, ND programs spend around 200-300 hours teaching chiropractic manipulations, hydrotherapy, and cranio-sacral as an integrated topic called “naturopathic manipulations.” Homeopathy, botanical medicine, and naturopathic manipulations are an utter waste of time.

(links were my own for those too lazy to google)
If you don't find that alarming I don't know what would.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Serves Pyro whiskey.

This guy, he knows where its at.

Cheers!

 

[Thyiad1]

Perhaps it's time to get down off the soapboxes regards conventional v alternative medicine. The discussion seems to be going in circles and I'd hate for us to empty the bar with a barney about it.

 

[TheNix]

The placebo effect is also greater if the person treating you is in a lab coat (or giving advice, etc.) from what I've heard. This wouldn't surprise me. I don't think that means it is supernatural. It is complicated, but I would argue that it is completely natural.

No matter where you look to find the definition of supernatural, the placebo effect definitely fits the definition. It is outside scientific understanding or the "laws of nature". Or should I say outside the current scientific understanding or the "laws of nature". Once the "laws of nature" were that man cannot fly, but technology changed that law. We are using the LHC to see if there are other dimensions. What if there are and it is possible to cross over to them? Could this not explain things like ghosts or UFOs, or even totally unexplained disappearances? Like flying once was, don't you think that scientific understanding and the "laws of nature" can change to encompass what is now the supernatural? Quackery aside, science must keep an open mind and constantly challenge the status quo, there is no place in modern science for another Galen!

 

[Jcakes1]

Perhaps it's time to get down off the soapboxes regards conventional v alternative medicine. The discussion seems to be going in circles and I'd hate for us to empty the bar with a barney about it.

Agreed wholeheartedly

 

[Zenigma]

I poured vodka into Gatorade. It's truly mind-altering. I'm going to get more...

A sip of this never felt as good
As it did when you were in the nude
Take a seat, enjoy the drink
And never stop to have a think

Or something like that...