D2R - Weapon Dex Bug - Help needed with testing and researching

[ffs]

That's interesting, but to be clear I was not referring to those big differences in attack rate such as attacking with Ali Baba.

I just noted that Ali Baba generally slows down attack rate by 1 frame even if everything "works properly". That's because Ali Baba has a slow WSM and Berserk takes into account offhand WSM. For this it's not about "fast" vs "slow" but rather the exact difference between "fast" and "even faster", if that makes sense.

So in case of the "fast" attacking in your video after getting the right dex amount, I think you're attacking with 10 fpa, at least that would be the D2L mechanics. But if you had a PB in the offhand you'd be at 9 fpa. That's why Ali Baba was not considered a good "budget" offhand.

Now that's with D2L attack rates and the D2L frame system, but to my knowledge these underlying mechanics are supposed to work the same in D2R (despite D2R running at a higher framerate).

I haven't seen any mention of exact attack rates but from what I gather this has not changed in D2R... Or am I missing something here and indeed Ali Baba offhand is just as fast as a PB offhand in D2R?

 

[MattiSPatti]

I think you haven't realy noticed what happens.
i'll try to make it a little structured

case 1 -Base dex + dex from gear = 136 ---> mainhand is always ali ba ba --> bad FPA
case 2 -Base dex + dex from gear + dex from alibaba ---> mainhand is now whatever weapon is put in the mainhand --> expected FPA when grief is in main hand
case 3 -Base dex + dex from gear + dex from alibaba + 2dex (no idea why this has to be 2 dex) ---> mainhand is now always grief but here is where it is wonkey.
When i put grief above the glove slot (main hand) the FPA is lower than when i put grief above the boots slot. and the difference is significant.

this is the situation i'm trying to figure out what is causing this.
right now i have to un-equip my annihilus to be able to bug my weapons like this. with anni i haven't found any situation anymore where i can get the same FPA as in the situation described in point 3.
Because in case 3 - the FPA is higher than what normal FPA would be. even if you equip JUST the grief, it does not swing as fast as the grief in offhand, ali baba in mainhand, and with that gearsetup.

Some info on WSG from PD2 throwbarb guide.
I think it's got something to do with how this is calculated and a new bug introduced by removing str-bug.

Base Weapon Speed (BWS): Each weapon has a base speed corresponding to its base weapon type. For example, wraith flight has weapon type ghost glaive, which has BWS = 20. Lacerator has weapon type Winged Axe, which has BWS = -10.(This information can be found on Arreat Summit: Javalins, Throwing). The lower BWS is, the faster the weapon. Normally, what’s factored into the attack speed calculation is the average of base speed of the two weapons, i.e. (BWS_1 + BWS_2)/2.

However, when you are holding two weapons of different base speed, you can take advantage of something called the Weapon Speed Glitch (WSG). Basically, by setting up things correctly, your weapon speed will become 1.5 * BWS_1 - 0.5* BWS_2, assuming that you put your faster weapon in your main hand (BWS_1), and slower weapon in your off-hand (BWS_2). This means that, the slower the off-hand weapon, the faster you throw!

 

[NorthDakota]

Haven’t read all the details but interesting stuff.

For this Berserk example specifically it should be noted that offhand Ali Baba is not a good choice anyway. It will screw up the attack rate even if everything works as it should. Berserk attack rate is 9 FPA with PB (and 42 IAS total), but using Ali Baba will drop you to 10 FPA (unless this has somehow changed but doesn't seem like it). That's why the 6x Ist offhand needs to be made in a PB as well.

Yes, I think at the moment a lot of people in D2R don't have a 6 isted phaseblade which is partially the reason why this bug is so well known, people are using any other offhand which usually has a lower dex requirement resulting in a bugged grief that does bad damage and swings slowly.

 

[NorthDakota]

Hi @MattiSPatti thanks for coming over and responding over here as well as reddit.

right now i have to un-equip my annihilus to be able to bug my weapons like this. with anni i haven't found any situation anymore where i can get the same FPA as in the situation described in point 3.

The reason you're noticing these weird funky things with charms/equipment is because the bug is dependent on the equipment slot which provides dexterity. You should really look over my post just a little further up the page showing which items will lead to the bugged weapon. To summarize; your base dex + dex from helm/chest/ammy/charms must total over 136 (regardless of what other dexterity you have provided from other slots) or else your grief will be bugged.

Where you're getting tripped up is you're sometimes trying to figure out what is going on within the bugged state and making comparisons to outside the bugged state. While your higher dex weapon is bugged (grief), there are funky things going on, some stats are applied, some aren't. But it doesn't really matter too much, because the best course of action is to get out of the bugged state, which requires you have 136 dex from base dex + dex from ammy/helmet/chest/charms.

However, when you are holding two weapons of different base speed, you can take advantage of something called the Weapon Speed Glitch (WSG). Basically, by setting up things correctly, your weapon speed will become 1.5 * BWS_1 - 0.5* BWS_2, assuming that you put your faster weapon in your main hand (BWS_1), and slower weapon in your off-hand (BWS_2). This means that, the slower the off-hand weapon, the faster you throw!

Unfortunately WSG is fixed in D2R and I don't believe this bug has anything to do with it. You will always attack fastest with your faster weapon over the glove slot. The exception of course is when you are dex glitched as described by this post, but in that case you should be fixing the glitch by allocating more dex or getting more dex through charms/helmet/ammy/chest since that will be the best overall regardless. After you linked me your video, I spent an absolute butt-load of time testing within the bugged state and I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on, other than the fact that your higher dex weapon isn't functioning properly or giving you stats, and eventually I gave up because to me, what does it matter? It's not being equipped properly and you must fix it by getting more base dex or dex through charms/helm/ammy/chest until that totals above 136, there's no getting around it.

So at any rate, I believe I've figured out this bug (almost) completely because I can say for certain when you will be bugged and I can say for certain what will make you not bugged anymore. I still need to edit my original post to organize my findings better, though.

 

[MattiSPatti]

Yes, I think at the moment a lot of people in D2R don't have a 6 isted phaseblade which is partially the reason why this bug is so well known, people are using any other offhand which usually has a lower dex requirement resulting in a bugged grief that does bad damage and swings slowly.

But i have the exact opposite?

Hi @MattiSPatti thanks for coming over and responding over here as well as reddit.


The reason you're noticing these weird funky things with charms/equipment is because the bug is dependent on the equipment slot which provides dexterity. You should really look over my post just a little further up the page showing which items will lead to the bugged weapon. To summarize; your base dex + dex from helm/chest/ammy/charms must total over 136 (regardless of what other dexterity you have provided from other slots) or else your grief will be bugged.

Where you're getting tripped up is you're sometimes trying to figure out what is going on within the bugged state and making comparisons to outside the bugged state. While your higher dex weapon is bugged (grief), there are funky things going on, some stats are applied, some aren't. But it doesn't really matter too much, because the best course of action is to get out of the bugged state, which requires you have 136 dex from base dex + dex from ammy/helmet/chest/charms.



Unfortunately WSG is fixed in D2R and I don't believe this bug has anything to do with it. You will always attack fastest with your faster weapon over the glove slot. The exception of course is when you are dex glitched as described by this post, but in that case you should be fixing the glitch by allocating more dex or getting more dex through charms/helmet/ammy/chest since that will be the best overall regardless. After you linked me your video, I spent an absolute butt-load of time testing within the bugged state and I can't for the life of me figure out what's going on, other than the fact that your higher dex weapon isn't functioning properly or giving you stats, and eventually I gave up because to me, what does it matter? It's not being equipped properly and you must fix it by getting more base dex or dex through charms/helm/ammy/chest until that totals above 136, there's no getting around it.

So at any rate, I believe I've figured out this bug (almost) completely because I can say for certain when you will be bugged and I can say for certain what will make you not bugged anymore. I still need to edit my original post to organize my findings better, though.

What i want to know is how it is possible to have higher FPA in case 3. where i have base dex + dex from unbugged sources (charms,chest,etc...) +2 dex.
But only when the grief is in the OFFHAND position.
This scenario is OP since i have MORE FPA while i should have LESS.
Even with double phaseblades, i'm not having the same high FPA as i did with the tulwar / PB setup. while it should be faster.
.

 

[NorthDakota]

What i want to know is how it is possible to have higher FPA in case 3. where i have base dex + dex from unbugged sources (charms,chest,etc...) +2 dex.
But only when the grief is in the OFFHAND position.
This scenario is OP since i have MORE FPA while i should have LESS.
Even with double phaseblades, i'm not having the same high FPA as i did with the tulwar / PB setup. while it should be faster.

Okay, I misunderstood you in your original post I'm sorry. I'm interested. So this case resulted in your fastest fpa -

case 3 -Base dex + dex from (non bugged gear) + dex from alibaba + 2dex

Can you tell me exactly your gear slot by slot, charms, and your base dex?

I want to test immediately because I never had this result with your setup if I'm understanding correctly.

 

[ffs]

Even with double phaseblades, i'm not having the same high FPA as i did with the tulwar / PB setup. while it should be faster.

This is what I meant.

If your Ali Baba + Grief setup is really faster than Grief + second PB, that would indeed be a new thing (as long as Blizzard doesn't "fix" it). In D2L there was no way to glitch any setup to be faster than 2x PB (at least in practical terms considering you switch between the two weapons sets all the time).

I couldn't tell from your vid whether that was the case. Very little time to play atm but I'll check this out once I get the chance.

 

[MattiSPatti]

Okay, I misunderstood you in your original post I'm sorry. I'm interested. So this case resulted in your fastest fpa -



Can you tell me exactly your gear slot by slot, charms, and your base dex?

Shako
Grief pb - 39 ias
Ali ba ba - 10 dex
Highlords
Nagel ring
10fcr / 19str ring
goldwrap
war trav
enigma MP
Barb torch 17atr / 11@
inventory : no charms with dex or str on them, all are either mf% or max / ar / gf or fhr and gheeds

in the situation of case 3 , my base dex is 119

 

[NorthDakota]

Shako
Grief pb - 39 ias
Ali ba ba - 10 dex
Highlords
Nagel ring
10fcr / 19str ring
goldwrap
war trav
enigma MP
Barb torch 17atr / 11@
inventory : no charms with dex or str on them, all are either mf% or max / ar / gf or fhr and gheeds

in the situation of case 3 , my base dex is 119

I'm at work right now but I'm itching to get home to see - without trying anything myself and seeing the 2 you put in extra

Okay but going by your video, your stats are actually this

ali baba - 14 dex
shako - 2 dex
torch - 17 dex

which, at the beginning of the video means your base dex was 103. You had actual dex of 136, meaning you were bugged from baba (you have no other sources of "bugged dex" assuming your gloves don't have any on them). You added the 14 dex (to replace the baba dex) removing the bug and start swinging with grief. Then adding 2 more dex gives you this even higher speed with it equipped in the offhand. So strange! WHY WOULD THEY FLIP. First thought off the bat about that adding 2 dex gives me the impression that it has to do with that shako maybe I have got to get home to try this out though.

What are your gloves in this setup?

 

[MattiSPatti]

Shako
Grief pb - 39 ias
Ali ba ba - 10 dex
Highlords
Nagel ring
10fcr / 19str ring
goldwrap
war trav
enigma MP
Barb torch 17atr / 11@
inventory : no charms with dex or str on them, all are either mf% or max / ar / gf or fhr and gheeds

in the situation of case 3 , my base dex is 119

I'm at work right now but I'm itching to get home to see - without trying anything myself and seeing the 2 you put in extra

Okay but going by your video, your stats are actually this

ali baba - 14 dex
shako - 2 dex
torch - 17 dex

which, at the beginning of the video means your base dex was 103. You had actual dex of 136, meaning you were bugged from baba (you have no other sources of "bugged dex" assuming your gloves don't have any on them). You added the 14 dex (to replace the baba dex) removing the bug and start swinging with grief. Then adding 2 more dex gives you this even higher speed with it equipped in the offhand. So strange! First thought off the bat about that adding 2 dex gives me the impression that it has to do with that shako maybe I have got to get home to try this out though.

What are your gloves in this setup?

Chance guards.
I'm currently using a double isted ali baba with +10 dex.
everything is the same.
once i equip annihilus, i can never achieve the bug anymore.
Thinking because i don't have to add dex to achieve the minimum required amount of dex to use ali baba...
cause both anni and torch are ''unbugged'' sources of dex, they add enough together.

i bet that if i used a slow base speed weapon with higher dex requirement, it would work again.

 

[NorthDakota]

Thinking because i don't have to add dex to achieve the minimum required amount of dex to use ali baba...
cause both anni and torch are ''unbugged'' sources of dex, they add enough together.

So are you saying that there's some glitch which depends on the amount of dex from items, that disregards the amount you've allocated on the character stats screen?

ali baba requirement - 42 dex

barb start dex: 20
torch +17
shako +2


= 39 "unbugged" dexterity = not enough to wear ali baba? - but adding anni gets you over the requirement, breaking the bug.

Is that what you're saying? But then why would allocating 2 dex points do anything here? I'm misunderstanding I think.

 

[MattiSPatti]

So are you saying that there's some glitch which depends on the amount of dex from items, that disregards the amount you've allocated on the character stats screen?

ali baba requirement - 42 dex

barb start dex: 20
torch +17
shako +2


= 39 "unbugged" dexterity = not enough to wear ali baba? - but adding anni gets you over the requirement, breaking the bug.

Is that what you're saying? But then why would allocating 2 dex points do anything here? I'm misunderstanding I think.

that's kinda exactly what i'm trying to say. and i have absolutely no clue in why those 2 points of dex matter. i just know (as demonstrated in the video) that it's what triggers the bug for me. and you can clearly see the increase in FPA and also the weapons switching visualy without touching them.

 

[NorthDakota]

that's kinda exactly what i'm trying to say. and i have absolutely no clue in why those 2 points of dex matter. i just know (as demonstrated in the video) that it's what triggers the bug for me. and you can clearly see the increase in FPA and also the weapons switching visualy without touching them.

I can't reproduce your bug, and I have ANOTHER difference to you. When you reach 150 dex, you become unbugged. when I use the EXACT SAME SETUP as you in the video, the same +14 ali baba, and my torch is +15 instead., I don't become unbugged until I hit 152 dex (!!!!!) WHAT. All my gear is exactly the same (except I'm not wearing your rare ring, just empty ring slot).

To me, shako is not contributing to my non-bugged dexterity. What's the deal? Also, I predicted in my mind that since I had a +15 torch, my grief wouldn't bug into the incorrect hand at +2, but at +4, but it didn't happen. It doesn't matter how many points I put into my dex, it never bugs into the other hand.

Edit: I just tested with a +17 (non-barb) torch to check with literally the exact same stat'ed items and I am still unbugging at 152 strength (shako doesn't count for unbugged dex for me..), and adding 2 more dex with that torch also doesn't do anything.

I'm wondering, is it possible that this has to do with online? Are you testing online just curious?

Edit 2: OKAY. Breakthrough possibly, my strength was lower than yours, since my enigma is in a breastplate. When I increased my strength by 3 hard points (base strength 33, actual 131) then I actually stopped becoming bugged at 150 dexterity, exactly like in your video. However, I still could not reproduce your faster swing bug, the grief would never bug into my mainhand


So here: 2 bugged setups

Bugged setup 1:

str: 30 base, 128 actual
dex:  103 base, 136 actual

Shako (+2 str, +2 dex)
enigma BP (+69 str)
wartravs (+10 str)
torch (+17 str, +17 dex)

Unbugged when 152 actual dex

Bugged setup 2:

str: 33 base
everything same as above

Unbugged when at 150 actual dex.

Shako has a strength requirement of 50, so by allocating 3 more points into strength, plus the torch's strength, I am meeting the requirements, and it's unbugging the dex that shako gives and unbugging my weapon. Interesting that the enigma doesn't take care of this, it is a non-bugged slot after all, so it should function like the charm. I'm thinking that because it's +str per level maybe that stat functions differently.

Because I tested naked, the bugged slots should still be always bugged (I always had to meet their strength requirements with hard points, so there should be no issue here). However, the non-bugged slots can be bugged as well if you don't meet their stat requirements through other non-bugged sources (like in the case of this shako). Additionally, enigma which grants +str/level doesn't count as a non-bugged source for strength requirements.



You're definitely onto something with the idea that you're not meeting the requirements of the ali-baba.. it's definitely some weird stat interaction I just can't figure out what it is. I've got a lot of ideas

 

[Helvete]

I believe at least part of this bug has been present since 1.07 - I don't have the gear to test in D2R (yet) but in 1.07 there was a problem with the BK set where one sword would provide dex and the other would never be used as main weapon until dex requirement was met. I never looked very much into that, since I believed it was fixed. Apparently, I believed wrong.

 

[Malchar]

Because I tested naked, the bugged slots should still be always bugged (I always had to meet their strength requirements with hard points, so there should be no issue here). However, the non-bugged slots can be bugged as well if you don't meet their stat requirements through other non-bugged sources (like in the case of this shako). Additionally, enigma which grants +str/level doesn't count as a non-bugged source for strength requirements.

Hi, I'm new to this discussion, so please let me know if there have been any updates. Also, I haven't done any testing on my own, so please forgive my ignorance.

Could it be correct that each item is "equipped" in a particular order? For example, the game first determines whether or not you can equip your helm slot based on your base strength + charms. Next, the game determines whether or not you can equip your body armor slot based on your base strength + charms + helm slot. This would explain why the strength from Enigma doesn't work for "equipping" the Shako.

All of the "non-bugged sources" happen to be the item slots which are "equipped" before the weapons, and the "bugged sources" are the slots which are "equipped" after the weapons.

This would also explain why MattiSPatti needed to add 2 more dexterity to correct the bug in the video. If I have added it up correctly, I believe that MattiSPatti did not have enough strength to properly equip the Shako, so the Shako was not contributing its 2 dexterity. You must be able to equip your helm slot using only your base strength plus charms. So, adding the Annihilus charm fixed the problem.

I think this could be a new bug that was a side-effect of Blizzard fixing strength bugging.

 

[Warren1001]

little bit of an old thread but for anyone reading and confused, everything described here are known bugs from original d2. the first one is an issue with equipment order. the second one is a byproduct of equipment order to cause wsm bugging (called auto wsm). both are well documented. amazon basin has the equip order. you can lookup a guide for wsm bugging (patched in d2r) and auto wsm bugging (auto wsm, not patched in d2r) on asgard

 

[MattiSPatti]

i'm still able to reproduce the bug, but i'm playing single player.
For now i have given up on it since it probably only has very niche uses.
I doubt it will be usefull for the PVP scene at all in it's current form.

 

[Warren1001]

i'm still able to reproduce the bug, but i'm playing single player.
For now i have given up on it since it probably only has very niche uses.
I doubt it will be usefull for the PVP scene at all in it's current form.

the only use wsm bugging has ever had in pvp was to allow 9fpa trap laying with slower claws on a hybrid sin
since wsm bugging was patched and now we only have auto wsm bugging, its even harder to do so as the claw requirements become very strict. the only way this is feasible anymore is runic talons/feral claws main hand, scissors suwayyah offhand, which is not ideal since suwayyah does the same average dmg for significantly less stat req and war fist does more average damage than every other claw. the offhand is intended to be the main damage dealer.
i guess its a little more feasible if you use -req to make the main hand have less reqs than the off hand, as warfist is pretty much ideal to get the fastest wsm and most dmg after auto wsm, but i havent tested if -req will contribute the same way, and -req takes away a valuable modifier in a claw which is still not ideal compared to original. its also not viable for a sin main handing chaos with a damage dealing offhand since theres no room for jewels in a chaos

i did a lot of testing for llama's speedbear build, and auto wsm bugging seems to be possible in bear form, but i was never able to land a hit, no matter what fpa i swung at. i also couldnt land a hit with two claws at all, but llama was able to, so i dont know what the difference there was. i suspect wsm bugged bear cant land a hit because its confused by what the main hand is, but no other skill has this issue with wsm bugging so maybe its a glitch thats been affecting other speed builds in which server/client desync has it to where there are certain intervals amongst the new obtainable breakpoints that are completely desynced. IF wsm bugging were possible in bearform, this would allow the assassin to hit 2 fpa swings without blocking, without wasting a whole slot, and needing significantly less ias to pull off, but i couldn't figure it out and gave up.