The SPF I know

[ThomasJohnsen]

Where did I write that I don't consider skill a huge factor? And I have a huge respect for anyone pouring years into a single character. My characters however are rarely more than at most 3 months old. Most are HC and I often start from scratch because that is what makes diablo great for me - not grailing or improving old characters. And entering an MFO or the last Baal tourney would simply be an act of foolishness. Best case I'd finish last - worst case I'd loose a character or two. I do however follow the tourneys eagerly and enjoy what you guys find. Even at times when I don't play, I pop by every single day several times to follow the progress.

But again ... why is how people play, their time investment, their amount of participation etc. relevant here?
Our moderator felt that the ethical standards of SPF had changed to the worse and made a post about it. Helvete felt that the community is as strong and functioning as ever and made this post. How do we create a forum that can hold both sentiments is what I'm interested in? Like I said: this forum is important to me - even when I don't play.


#EDIT: Oh I made a reply while GG was posting. This is ofc a response to Grape.

 

[Grape1]

Okay. I thought you felt that it is not worth joining because people are using items from earlier patches, not because your HC character are at stake or you don't feel like losing:

"I can most definately see new/"purist" members not entering a tourney/PvP because of the daunting prospect of battling against someone with multiple versions worth of items and many years of experience (be they vanilla or FAM); myself included."

And that's because I made such post. I think competing and being part of tourneys are such as fun as even when knowing you won't have chance to win. Often in MFOs this is the case anyway if you can't make a big time investment. It's still fun to be part of it, even for a few hours worth of runs.

My one response to @Thyiad was this post. Hopefully she'll have time at some point to get back to this discussion. Now we are just guessing what's going on based on two posts.

 

[Timinator1]

One quick thought about the beta, something that stirred up a bit of the angst. There are people out there playing it, they are having fun. Why? One reason, its something new in a universe that basically has almost nothing new.

They are all adults and know not to talk about it here, or mix that with other things.

In an alternate reality, there would be a thread people could read/post/ignore.

Also .. what is the "P word"? maybe someone PM me?

 

[Fabian]

I can confirm the reason my Pitbarb was good was purely because of items, there was no skill involved.

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

So we're talking about an effect here, that after years invested, yields a gain of 0.01 %.
And that effect causes some controversy. And we insist on keeping it why?

 

[ioupain]

That's like asking 'Why look for Tyrael's or Zod if the chance is so low?'.

It's fun, a challenge, you have plans for the item or you just want to complete the grail.

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

I don't see completing a grail or looking for a Zod causing any form of controversy.
If this is basically just fun, then why not just show the items off and keep them in the version they spawned? Fun still achieved - controversy eliminated.

 

[Grape1]

I'm having fun bringing some of these earlier items to the 1.13 and build various characters around them. I have most resources in 1.13, and thus can usually get most out of them that way. (and more builds are viable compared to patches like 1.00 and 1.07).

Sure I'm having fun in the earlier patches with items found in them, too. Why not have all the fun this game offers to me?

Hopefully you won't be too worried when I find nice rare bow in 1.00 and bring it to 1.04 to make a bowazon in that patch. I may even write a mat thread to share it with us. It's just me having fun

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

Supposing you could still do all of those things, except that you'd have to restrict the posting of progress/items etc. in a subforum or a special thread, and this would eliminate any controversy, would you consider that as a potential solution? (if indeed that could be used as a compromise that would suit all with a minimum of annoyance - I cannot make such a decision ofc).

EDIT: Oh - answer to Grape ofc.

And to answer zemaj: if the moderator made a post about controversy caused by RWM, I would quit using it in a heartbeat. Deleting all characters in the process. Not even thinking 2 secs about it.

 

[Grape1]

I still don't get how its stresses you so much to see this game being played in ways that aren't how you yourself play it.

Sure we can discuss what is FAM, what is not, and what should or shouldn't be FAM but having already small community to post in subforums doesn't sound like a very good solution. What about trying to be less narrow-minded? Sorry if this sounds harsh.

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

I still don't get how its stresses you so much to see this game being played in ways that aren't how you yourself play it.

I think I've said it like 5 times already - how you play your game dosen't affect me the tiniest bit, so I don't much care.

What I do care about though, is that we are not in unison about what is in tune with the ethical standrads of SPF. The post made by the mod, made me really sad, and I agreed with it completely - I think we have gone too far and need to track back a tad.


EDIT: And I have been trying to make suggestions that might again "restore peace". I suggested subforums/threads or division as potential solutions. I'd really like to hear from you guys how you all think the forum might function in future.

 

[Grape1]

Don't worry, we (as a forum) will never be in total agreement how this game should be played.

And to answer zemaj: if the moderator made a post about controversy caused by RWM, I would quit using it in a heartbeat. Deleting all characters in the process. Not even thinking 2 secs about it.

You'd tolerate it just like that? What if the moderator asked us all to prove we play the game with only one hand? You'd do it in a heartbeat?

Good moderation goes hand in hand with hearing constructive criticism from the forumites. That's what some of here tried to do (answer to Thyiad's complaints), but I'm not sure if any of it was read. I still think it was ridiculous to suggest how low this forum has sunk.

 

[Grape1]

I think we have gone too far and need to track back a tad.

For all these years I've been there, this forum has been pretty much the same. I'm trusting our moderation won't make such decisions that suddenly bunch of FAM characters become non-FAM, essentially destroying thousands of hours playtime people has put towards them.

EDIT: And I have been trying to make suggestions that might again "restore peace". I suggested subforums/threads or division as potential solutions. I'd really like to hear from you guys how you all think the forum might function in future.

I think the forums work okay right now. Most of the time travel things are in their separate threads, and IFT has always been a place to post any findings under FAM. I've also put "1.07 Travincal" or something like that when I post a finding not from a modern patch.

Sure if more people feel like pushing all that away from frontpage, who am I to stop that. It just sounds infinitely impractical. How many divisions we would possibly need to cover every different way this game is being played?

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

Don't worry, we (as a forum) will never be in total agreement how this game should be played.

I not talking about agreement on how to play the game. I'm talking about following an appropriate set of agreed upon guidelines on how we conduct ourselves in threads in SPF that are administered by an elected moderator.

You'd tolerate it just like that? What if the moderator asked us all to prove we play the game with only one hand? You'd do it in a heartbeat?

She hasn't asked yet, but I might try.

But what worries me is the rigid stance of some members here. Regardsless of how we may feel about the recent mod-posts, we will for sure have to concede that she is an intelligent woman with a long pedigree here. I feel that she deserves that we try to see things from her side and try to come up with a way in which the things that causes discussion can be mitigated, to a point where all can be happy (or at least content).
And you're absolutely right - none of my suggestions are optimal. Either will cause annoyance and frustration. If you have better solutions that would present a middle-ground between all members and mods, I'd be very interested.

 

[Lemstar]

Believe it or not, there was a time when RWM was not the norm.

 

[ioupain]

I feel that she deserves that we try to see things from her side and try to come up with a way in which the things that causes discussion can be mitigated, to a point where all can be happy (or at least content).

@ThomasJohnsen I have to disagree with most of what you've written.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the method by which Thy approached this, was not conducive to the outcome you appear to be trying to retrofit to it.

Seeing someone's point of view ≠ agreeing with their point of view

Further, this thread is giving people a platform to say what they think and for everyone to see (and challenge) their point of view. I can see and understand your point of view, but I disagree with many aspects of it. As @Grape said, we'd never be in total agreement as a forum, but does anyone actually know quantitatively how the forum feels? Which brings me back to a point I made earlier, that we* ought to do some sort of survery to get the lay of the land and answer these questions:

1. How many players are still active?
2. What version(s) do they actively play?
3. What versions have they historically played?
4. Did they / do they bring any items forward? (which could be broke up to ascertain whether they did this once as part of the normal upgrade path or multiple times for time travelling)
5. Did they / do they use ATMA?
6. Did they / do they use GoMule?
7. Did they / do they use RWM/CRM/RRM?
8. Did they / do they use the FE mod?
9. etc. etc.

[Note: this is not an exhaustive list, and many of these would need to have multiple options to select]

This is quite complex because of the temporal nature of what we're asking and the concept of taint. For example: I would be reluctant to lump all time travellers together - some people played each version in it's time (and this is where the age of the game really *does* matter). You'll want to avoid the situation where a person who played 1.09 in its heyday, getting accused of of 'abusing the game' since they held onto their Raven Claw.

It is better to understand the breakdown in as much granularity as possible and then roll those groups up into a few manageable categories.

*'We' in this instance should relate to someone who has leadership, i.e. a moderator or group of people given a remit

Of course, once we know the demographics of the community, we can then have agreed groupings and start to apply some rigour to it all. As of now, we just have a back and forth, which is meaningless without the data.

Having the data allows us to:

- Be clear and specific
- Understand the impact to the community
- Check whether any of the ideas to rectify this problem are feasible/practical (or warranted)

 

[fearedbliss]

Lol people still talking about this? Just play the game the way you want to play it and stop being judgmental. It's been 17 years already..... I don't need to trade with anyone and I don't need nor care about people's opinions on what they believe "I" should be doing with "my" gaming experience.

 

[Grape1]

Lol people still talking about this? Just play the game the way you want to play it and stop being judgmental. It's been 17 years already..... I don't need to trade with anyone and I don't need nor care about people's opinions on what they believe "I" should be doing with "my" gaming experience.

Heh, ye

I agree, but then there's things like MF tourneys etc. when common framework is needed, and that can apparently cause some controversy.

I think I've said it like 5 times already - how you play your game dosen't affect me the tiniest bit, so I don't much care.

Thumbs up. But who are you talking for when you think about the need to make new sub forums etc. Is there some people who feel the need? You don't care... so?

I thought this thread was going to be

a) talking about hybrid rares (why, why not? solution?)
b) maybe clearing up that thing about the beta. I've not been paying close attention to that, but I think that part got done.
c) engaging moderator(s) into a conversation

can we get back to those?

If someone feels we need to discuss about time travel or new sub forums / divisions / threads, maybe open a new thread? That would be quite a big topic on its own. My personal opinion however is that the forums work just fine and the "FAM" as a common framework is clear enough, though very wide, agreed.

Or just continue it here, whatever.

 

[T72on1]

...

I thought this thread was going to be

a) talking about hybrid rares (why, why not? solution?)
b) maybe clearing up that thing about the beta. I've not been paying close attention to that, but I think that part got done.
c) engaging moderator(s) into a conversation

can we get back to those?

...

I agree with this 100%. I think the rest is and has been FAM for so long now, that it really doesn't make much sense to drag it in here again.

I would definitely want to stress point c). Right now a lot of good points are being made, people make the effort to get out of this situation, it would be nice having one or more mods into the conversation. Especially it was a post made by a mod which sparked all of this in the first place.

@fearedbliss I think there's not much use in jumping in here and making a post like that, which makes me believe you only read the last few posts, or not even that much. We are all in agreement that what you do on your computer with the game, is up to you and only you. It's when you start participating in tournaments, start posting pics in the ITF thread, ... that it does matter. According to your reasoning, people could just cheat their way to an item, still post about it here, and it wouldn't make a difference for you, we'd still have to cheer because that person for example found a Zod.

@ThomasJohnsen We probably all agree about Thyiad here, being an intelligent woman and the fact that she's helped out for so long. But it's hard to see things from her side when the post that has sparked this, never allowed any discussion. It's not like there were a lot of other posts from her or any other moderator indicating that things were going the wrong way quickly, and then all of a sudden that post to tell us all how deep the forums had sunk. In the meanwhile we have put a lot of energy into working things out from there, and that's mainly what we have got going at the moment.

 

[ThomasJohnsen]

On the one hand we have a long-time well-respected SPF member and moderator with a long history who expresses concern about the current state of things in SPF. I listen when someone of that caliber makes such a post. And I happened to share her concern. The fact that she has been absent for a long time adds concern about her person as well (for me at least).
On the other hand we have a list of long-time forumites also well-respected and with long histories playing this game in a way they consider to be fun, exploratory and completely within forum standards. I can definately see their point of view as well.

I am, as have been mentioned, somewhat autistic, and that manifests some times in me emmersing myself in a single area of interest to a degree where other aspects of my life suffer as a consequence. I am a type of person that could dig into 1.07 code, run cow king thousands of times trying to find that illusive rare, devote every ounce of free time to discover what's up. And had things turned out a little bit different, it might have been me Thyiad was talking about.

---

As things stand here, I have trouble finding rest and getting sleep. We had an active and helpful member on ETF a long time ago, who suddenly started acting weird and all of a sudden dissappeared. We later found out he had killed himself. Some time later diilegend, who I befriended on fb and had a pretty close realtionship with, got into an argument with someone on forum, which resulted in her cutting all ties with everyone (including me) and never returned. She was in a very dark place before leaving, and I spent quite a long time trying to find out how she was doing - but I never found her. Such things stay with me and weigh in when I see a disillusioned moderator making harsh posts and then goes off forum for a long time. I fear all sorts of things and feel a need to try to do something - anything - to try and help! I am scared, that it will be difficult for her to come back to a place where she has made a couple of posts, that maybe were a bit more harsh than they ought to have been, and where many respected members have spoken out against her. And what I was trying to do (and still am for that matter) is to find a way for her to return to this place and see that we have listened to her concerns and that things have changed a little bit. I wan't her to come back and feel like she belongs and is needed.
Some of us dii-players and members here, can be prone to mental issues (as has been pointed out in threads before) and suddenly do irrational things. Certainly I can. If that is what happened with our mod, I wan't her to feel like she can come back regardless and find friends and a community.

Hopefully she will come back soon, and we can have a calm debate about SPF. Until she does however, I will pursue this subject and do whatever I can to try and get her back.