darkelrond
New member
maxed venom maxed claw mastery maxed fade just enough i have 60% maxed mb 1 in dflight 1 in blade fury/sheild 1 in shadow master i think thtats it
WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0
- Thread starter TienJe
- Start date
maxed venom maxed claw mastery maxed fade just enough i have 60% maxed mb 1 in dflight 1 in blade fury/sheild 1 in shadow master i think thtats it
So I'm starting to save up wealth to begin making one of these fine ladies and I'm just curious as to what people prefer, a damage or poison oriented Ghost Sin? Which is more well rounded? I will mostly be playing in pups or with remote friends, not saying I don't have a general idea about what I'm doing (Do give me the bad kid route 
) I played with a Full WW Bramble sin for almost a year, but I for the most part will not be doing weapon switches and sorbs. Thank you.
) I played with a Full WW Bramble sin for almost a year, but I for the most part will not be doing weapon switches and sorbs. Thank you.HappyAssassin
New member
Which is better??? Oooo I wish I knew!
There's a lot of factors that come into play here. First of all, Venom gets a boost in Hell difficulty. On West Ladder (where my Ghost was originally made), all duels were done in Hell difficulty. TienJe's ghost was made on West NL, where they typically have priv duels in Nightmare. Venom does slightly less damage in nightmare, making physical more desirable for duels there (in my opinion). Also, physical ghosts make better teammates with necros, since they benefit more from amp.
Whats the difference between a physical ghost and a venom based one? Usually they have similar damage on Fury side, on Chaos side the Physical ghost will display around 700 more damage than the Venom. The similar fury damages are deceptive, a larger % of the physical ghost's damage is of course physical, which takes only a 50% penalty vs. an opponent as opposed to 75% (assuming the opponent has maxed DR and PSN RES). On the otherside of the equation, the Venom based ghost's Venom benefits more from the 25% double application bug. Also in Hell duels the penalty to opponents PLR will mean that Venom based ghosts will do even more damage.
Both Ghosts benefit from Deadly Strike, the physical ghost benefits more. Physical ghosts usually stack more deadly strike, giving them even higher damage.
Venom Ghosts have higher shadow skills in general, their mind blast does more damage, they have an easier time having max DR, they get a higher claw block % (mine has 61).
What it really comes down to is preference. Do you duel in NM or Hell? Do you like a slightly more caster-like Ghost (venom) or a more melee oriented one (physical? Are your triwhirls perfect (physical benefits more from a perfect triwhirl due to the frequency of hits)? Do you often team duel with a necro partner?
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to preference. It's worth noting that physical Ghosts require a high damage eth bug claw, which is rare and expensive. My Venom based ghost is doing just fine dueling the same people as TienJe's ghost (he does better, but that's down to him being a better player as opposed to his build) in nightmare, so your choice is really between two very similar builds in terms of effectiveness.
There's a lot of factors that come into play here. First of all, Venom gets a boost in Hell difficulty. On West Ladder (where my Ghost was originally made), all duels were done in Hell difficulty. TienJe's ghost was made on West NL, where they typically have priv duels in Nightmare. Venom does slightly less damage in nightmare, making physical more desirable for duels there (in my opinion). Also, physical ghosts make better teammates with necros, since they benefit more from amp.
Whats the difference between a physical ghost and a venom based one? Usually they have similar damage on Fury side, on Chaos side the Physical ghost will display around 700 more damage than the Venom. The similar fury damages are deceptive, a larger % of the physical ghost's damage is of course physical, which takes only a 50% penalty vs. an opponent as opposed to 75% (assuming the opponent has maxed DR and PSN RES). On the otherside of the equation, the Venom based ghost's Venom benefits more from the 25% double application bug. Also in Hell duels the penalty to opponents PLR will mean that Venom based ghosts will do even more damage.
Both Ghosts benefit from Deadly Strike, the physical ghost benefits more. Physical ghosts usually stack more deadly strike, giving them even higher damage.
Venom Ghosts have higher shadow skills in general, their mind blast does more damage, they have an easier time having max DR, they get a higher claw block % (mine has 61).
What it really comes down to is preference. Do you duel in NM or Hell? Do you like a slightly more caster-like Ghost (venom) or a more melee oriented one (physical? Are your triwhirls perfect (physical benefits more from a perfect triwhirl due to the frequency of hits)? Do you often team duel with a necro partner?
At the end of the day, I think that it comes down to preference. It's worth noting that physical Ghosts require a high damage eth bug claw, which is rare and expensive. My Venom based ghost is doing just fine dueling the same people as TienJe's ghost (he does better, but that's down to him being a better player as opposed to his build) in nightmare, so your choice is really between two very similar builds in terms of effectiveness.
i have to agree with ollie here, about it being mainly an object of preference. both builds will do just fine given the same amount of skill; even a really poorly ghost will do just fine if you play it right.
but i wanted to make a couple of points. when ollie said that the PD% compounding bug made the poison damage stronger, the character screen already reflects that, so you don't need to compound your 25% from trangs a second time. i've usually found that physically oriented ghosts come up with less damage on the char screen, but because the physical damage is instantaneous (instead of over 10 frames like venom), the effective damage comes out to be very close for block characters, and of course, physical is better for vita characters, while venom is better for ES.
like ollie had mentioned, poison sins definitely get more shadow skills, and end up being a little bit more "tank-y", because they usually have higher fade and clawblock. they also get a few more points to mess around with, since they won't need as many into fade/clawblock.
the last thing i want to mention is that per given claw setup (chaos+fury/chaos+fools), the shadow gcs of the venom setup will result in lower AR. depending on who you duel, it might be a factor.
just to sort of explain my thought process between the separation of these two types, you need to consider the overall life into the mix. its very easy to get both a decently high physical damage (fatty claws + highlords), and also high venom damage (lots of gcs), but you'll be left with a sin thats suffering in the life department. the reason why physical ghosts can use fatty claws with high requirements is because the amount of life from SCs will help to counter the extra stats placed (and it just so happens that the scs can spawn with +max damage). with a venom ghost, people stick with lower damage and lower req claws so that they can keep their life high while keeping their damage at a decent amount.
just understand that the magnitude of the effects of these equipment/build changes are relatively small. both builds will have very decent venom damage and OW (huge source of damage), but the physical will substitute a little bit of venom for a little bit more physical. its nowhere near the 100% emphasis change that the names suggest.
RedemptioN
New member
I use venom based strictly because it is MUCH cheaper than a physical based sin (37x 3/xx/20's don't come cheap) and I get more dmg from Widowmaker than on a physical based sin (Not completely sure on this, but Im just assuming).
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i'm pretty sure you're right about the widow thing, although i've heard that the character screen lies about the pd, since the %pd doesn't get compounded twice like on melee attacks.
So your telling me either my Chaos or Fury will need to be Eth Bugged? That sucks (Then again some godly Blue Fools modded claw isn't exactly cheap and easy to find either)...Also, is the reason behind not using Suwayyahs due to their trap laying speed? I will be playing in Hell and Hell only, pretty much just public games, I am very huge on PvM but I like to PvP every once and a while to escape from all the repition of runs and such
. I appreciate your guy's help, but ARG I don't know which one to choose!Ebug's aren't absolutely necessary, but it does give the physical ghosts a huge boost over the venom setups imo. if you are under a price constraint, like redemption said, just use the poison setup; its much cheaper and will work just fine.So your telling me either my Chaos or Fury will need to be Eth Bugged? That sucks (Then again some godly Blue Fools modded claw isn't exactly cheap and easy to find either)...Also, is the reason behind not using Suwayyahs due to their trap laying speed? I will be playing in Hell and Hell only, pretty much just public games, I am very huge on PvM but I like to PvP every once and a while to escape from all the repition of runs and such
the guide says to stick to ferals/gt/runics because the other claws are too slow to reach 9 frame trap laying within reasonable limits. you are welcome to use suwayyahs though, especially if you are WSM bugging.
P.S. ghosts are probably #1 worst pvm :laughing:
Money isn't an issue
, one of the benefits of playing loads of PvM. Looking back through the posts, so would a Venom Build be better than a Physical in Hell Pubs? He mentioned Physical being better for NM Privates. they are both very viable builds in hell. in my opinion it really just depends on if you have the scs to build a physical sin or not. besides from that fact they are similar builds concerning gear and skills.
also u live in my city.
Hehe nice
, I'm actually in Clovis right meow around Barstow and Temperance moving to Cedar and Alluvial though here pretty soon, you familair with the area? To TienJe & Happy
Out of curiosity, whats the theoretical point where you can consider a ghost physical vs venom (aside from the use of Highlords & ebug claw), i.e. the mix of charms.
Is it the 31x fine smalls ? I have 7 Shadow GCs & others are fine/low life smalls. Also, I use 2x non-eth Fury/Chaos suwayyahs. I'm at 10 frames w/ 15ias ***. & Highlords. Do you think its even worth pursuing physical at this point or just settle for venom emphasis?
Out of curiosity, whats the theoretical point where you can consider a ghost physical vs venom (aside from the use of Highlords & ebug claw), i.e. the mix of charms.
Is it the 31x fine smalls ? I have 7 Shadow GCs & others are fine/low life smalls. Also, I use 2x non-eth Fury/Chaos suwayyahs. I'm at 10 frames w/ 15ias ***. & Highlords. Do you think its even worth pursuing physical at this point or just settle for venom emphasis?
there really is no threshold, as it depends on who you're dueling, since the benefit of physical damage over venom depends on how quickly the whirlwind can hit.
i wrote a long answer, but i closed the window accidentally, and i'm feeling pretty lazy tonight, so i'll just summarize what i wrote before.
you already have both the requirements for venom emphasis (high # of gcs) and for physical emphasis (high damage claws + HL). the thing you should be worried about right now is life. if your life is fine, then theres no need to change anything; you have a good balance between both worlds. if you feel you want more life, then you should lean towards one of the poles a little bit more, and either go to lower req claws + maras (or other gear changes), or more fine/vita scs.
in either case, switch your fury to either a GT/runic (depending on your stat situation), and then WSM bug, so that you can get 9 frame traps without the 15% ias in your helm.
but like i said earlier, the magnitude of these changes is very small compared to your overall damage. you probably won't really be able to notice the difference in general pvp.
HappyAssassin
New member
Very few people in pubs stack out venom. Despite the easy access to 85 poison resists, the vast majority of people do not take advantage of it. In fact, it often works the other way. Poison resist is not found on many resist boots, and many players don't bother with it as much simply because it is uncommon. I have no way of know what's on pub players screens, but from what I've seen there is a greater predominance of players with low poison resists than high ones. Then again, there are plenty of pub players who wear virtually no DR also. The point here is the most pub players aren't very clever, so your milage may vary depending on what particular type of idiot you run into.
RedemptioN
New member
Very true towards pubs, but as a general rule of thumb, many people have lower DR than they do have max res. Max res is fairly easy to get, when max DR isn't. Also note that DR only reduces your dmg by 50% max, whereas poison can be resisted 75%. It's been said but yea...
You'll definately do fine in pubs with venom build, but physical build is the way to go in my opinion, just to give fast dmg to unsuspecting, DR-deprived victims.
HappyAssassin
New member
Follow up to that, if you team duel at all with your Ghost then you will quickly see that AMP is a huge factor for a physical WWsin that will help a Venom ghost much less.
i think ollie was at least a little surprised when he saw me jump straight onto barbs in team duels with amp floating over our heads
rop:. RedemptioN
New member
i think ollie was at least a little surprised when he saw me jump straight onto barbs in team duels with amp floating over our heads
Lol nice. :shocked:
