Untwinked SP a love hate relationship

[pharphis]

Name another 15 years old game that has so many people still playing.

Super Smash Bros. Melee is the biggest it has ever been, and this is BECAUSE it is fast, technical and very difficult. It's as old as D2! (+/- a year). It's my other true love <3

edit: and it has only recently allowed for a version of online play due to emulators like dolphin and netplay, and has survived 2 sequels, now.

 

[JoeBruce1]

A big factor that keeps D2 alive and with a high diversity of players is freedom. The SPF is a great example of this. Some folks play single-pass untwinked; some hunt down the rare items; some use crazy (and rare) items for equally crazy (and rare) builds. And the list goes on. D2 allows for freedom of choice and freedom of play style; many games lack that freedom.

I really enjoy the untwinked play style, and usually do that as a single-pass as well. But that can get grinding, so I do some magic finding and have plenty of twinked characters who can use that gear as they go through the game. This helps me balance the love/hate feelings - when I'm in love with untwinked play I go for that (and the thrill of a useful item drop is amazing), but when that slides to the hate side I have other styles of D2 to go for. Or just another game entirely

 

[Maniachiavelli]

Super Smash Bros. Melee is the biggest it has ever been, and this is BECAUSE it is fast, technical and very difficult. It's as old as D2! (+/- a year). It's my other true love <3

Well, I don't know much about Nintendo games, but I'm kinda assuming people aren't still playing the N64 version (not many at least, although I know at least one who does... But that's an outlier), so I don't really think that counts ;-) That's like saying people are still playing Diablo because they are playing D3... (Unless I'm just completely clueless of course!)

 

[pharphis]

Well, I don't know much about Nintendo games, but I'm kinda assuming people aren't still playing the N64 version (not many at least, although I know at least one who does... But that's an outlier), so I don't really think that counts ;-) That's like saying people are still playing Diablo because they are playing D3... (Unless I'm just completely clueless of course!)

The N64 version is also the biggest it has ever been! It has been growing in popularity for the last 2-3 years. Melee exploded in popularity (after nearly dying a very slow death) in 2013 since it made it into EVO 2013. smash 64 has had a few tournaments with several hundred entrants. Melee has had nearly 2000 entrants in multiple tournaments in the last 2 years, and is one of the biggest games streamed on twitch.

and I mean literally that melee in particular is extremely popular, not the franchise. Melee is the biggest (it is comparable to sm4sh though they're definitely in a decline since it was released in 2014 so it had a big surge because it was new)

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

I've completed Hell in Classic Diablo II with an Amazon using just normal (non-magical) Throwing Spears with Charged Strike(...)

Of course, since you were playing classic and didn't have magic grade or elite items. In the Expansion things work differently. The AI for monsters is different, monsters have better stats, certain mechanics are different. Lower resist wands and Elite javelins can be shopped, so why not?

How many of the 504 hours in those 3 weeks did you spend on the game?

To be fair, an unhealthy amount. Most of my time was spent doing p8 LK runs, which netted quite a few runes. If a normal amount was put into the game, it would have taken ~6 weeks to net the same results. Still, 6 weeks is nothing compared to a 1.10 or 1.12 grailer.

+% Damage from Champion and Extra Strong Unique bonuses was halved for Willowisps, which only reduces their physical melee damage

If anything, they need to fix the physical damage per-frame bug on the vipers. Willowisps et al wouldn't need a nerf if they worked properly. As usual, instead of taking the time to balance out IM, they took the easy way out and removed it, breaking lower resist in the process.

The vast majority of players play(ed) online, where updating is mandatory

I have only been around since 2010ish and assumed the SPF was even more active before then. Regardless, you just reiterated my point. Actually, backing it up with the fact that people had no choice, which in turn greatly sped up the grailers. When they made high runes rain from the sky, they opened pandora's box.

 

[NamelessPenguin]

I agree wholeheartedly with @GalaXyHaXz. This game has become too easy. It is really fun finally having access to all the HR's and trying the overpowered runewords out, which only the maddest players had back in the day. But it also becomes very trivial. Finding a HR is no big deal anymore. More like damn it! I needed a Lo, not Cham! We are spoiled.

I've almost acquired half the rune wealth in four (lucky) LK days, that I had in 1.10 with +1 year of intense manic gaming. However, I also think the rune and runeword balance was way off in 1.10. If you wanted a Last Wish, you needed to find a rune with 1:bazillion odds. Three times. And another with 1:kazillion odds. And one with just 1:9734457453. It makes no sense at all. I think they could have either shaved some of the runewords, or increased the drops. Just not x20.

The reasoning was probably, when MP became a thing, that given the popularity of this game, we have a big enough pool of gamers, that someone is bound to find something sooner or later. But then said person would have something so rare, that it became worthless, because nobody had anything to offer, except HoZ and Shako's. Then said person rolled a +361% botdlolz in a non etheral polearm, love having not to spend precious money on repairs anymore, or worrying about mana leech. Poor guy. It's late, I'm going to bed..

 

[JoeBruce1]

I should have done this in my last post: Super Smash Bros is AMAZING! I have not played the game in years, but me and my best friend had a blast with that one back in the day! I still have my N64 and my OG Nintendo systems - both still work. One day I might have to break out Smash Bros for some classic nostalgia.

As for the conversation about high runes: yes they are much more common, meaning anyone with the time and fortitude (no pun intended) can acquire plenty for the best rune word items. But speaking as someone who plays more casually, that change was really nice. A couple of months ago I found my highest rune yet: Ohm (I have a Lo on softcore, not sure if that is higher). I really think I'll make a CtA, but I can't decide if I want it as a switch only for the BO, or make in an elite melee weapon for a non-Barb build. It will probably be a while before I choose. But the point is, that is an item which I never thought I could have until rune drops changed in 1.13. Although I'll probably never have a Grief or Breath of the Dying, a few other choice, high-end rune words may one day be a possibility for me. If you want to spend hours acquiring those things, it is now possible, and that might give you the impression that the game is too easy. But for more casual playing it makes it a lot more fun.

In general though, I will agree that the game has gotten easier as the years/patches progressed. I still assert that the game has decent balance and great freedom - and that freedom includes self-restrictions that are realistic to follow and enjoyable to maintain (insert link to any SPF tournament).

 

[NamelessPenguin]

@JoeBruce I'd go with low req. item for CtA, as there are so many better weapon options than CtA. Even Oath (Shael, Pul, Mal, Lum) is better, or Death. Both easier to find, though a good base will require some dedication.

Runes have become way more accessible than the rare TC87's (Dweb, Dfathom..), and since most of the runewords are more useful/overpowered, it makes the mentioned items pretty much obsolete. Which is a shame. I haven't spent a single decent session farming those, as it's way easier getting insane (relatively..) wealth from LK, and much, much faster. So I don't think it's more balanced now, but less. But I see why casual players enjoy this, though.

One thing they got right with regards to making this game more difficult, is the run for 99. Way, way more difficult.

 

[ffs]

When I came back to D2 some 2 years ago I began to run LK run big time. I had played the game excessively before was at somethin like grail -8, so runewords were a main focus initially. Similar to what @GalaXyHaXz said -- it was done in no time. Infinity, Enigma, Griefs, Fortitudes Faith, Dreams... Made them all of that within a couple of months.

However, I don't think that's a bad thing. First of all, it still requires dedication to do these pretty boring runs for many, many hours. IIRC farming Enigma in LK based on 25s runs or so takes somewhere around 50 hours. That is something, it's not nothing. Also I don't think HRs should have been that rare in the first place. On bnet, this lead to mass duping (everyone was using them anyway) and forum wealth determining things. On SP, yes it took years to self-farm a high-end runeword. Looking at it that way, "easier" seems to be just "better" to me. I couldn't care less about RWs anyway, the truly amazing items are those really rare uniques which I still haven't all found, as well as those "individual" items (rares, craft) that exist only once.

So in short, to be honest, I think it's good that the HR drops increased, and I don't think the really rare S&Us drop too often at all. For me it doesn't take away any sense of accomplishment at all, and there's always something else to do if you want to continue playing.

 

[darkstarhub]

I have to agree with @ffs about HR’s. Yes, they were supposed to be some of the very best end game items, and only attainable with extreme dedication or absolutely dumb luck. They would be especially hard to find by somebody that only played on Bnet since obviously LK running is not as lucrative as it is in SP. But, IMO, having the HR’s somewhat more attainable makes the game fun to play. As ffs said, it still takes some dedication to farm HR’s even now. I personally like being able to get even a decently HR because it is a nice little nibble of the carrot, and since I am not the fastest of runners, an actual HR is still quite rare.

I think of it kinda like how gearing was in vanilla D3. My characters were completely geared with the use of the Auction House. I never found anything that was end game build gear, and I played a lot more then than I do now. Yes, I am not the fastest runner, but there were some extremely good players in the group of people I played with, and they would say the same thing. That sucked, as was not fun at all. I find it extremely satisfying to be able to farm my own end game gear in D2.

@GalaXyHaXz Next time you find one of those dastardly Cham Runes you don’t want you can pass it on to me!!!

 

[zoo]

As someone who doesn't like the thought of running around opening chests in one single area all day, I don't mind HR's being more common. That being said, the thought have crossed my mind to install version 1.12 of D2. That would retain the older rune drop rates while still giving me the convenience of not having to use CD's to play vanilla. Not sure how well it works with Windows 10 though.

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

When 1.13 first came out I was excited being able to try out the higher runewords. It seemed like a great idea at first, finally allowing non-dupers to experience the game. But it quickly created an issue--now everyone is just farming HRs and nothing else. Within time, I had 2 accounts on the ladder of fully geared characters with all the runewords. And then? It just wasn't fun anymore, because I had everything and basically sand-boxed the game.

With that said, I do think runes needed a slight boost. They increased the drops twice in 1.13. The first time, 1.13a, was perfect--high runes were still rare enough to be worth their weight, yet legit players could actually find them. The next patch came along with Blizzard slashing the rarity by 4 without thinking it through. (see below)

Spoiler

They don't merit the same accomplishment anymore, unlike @Yann's 1.07 Cham or the Jo rune opening the 2008 IFT. Even the Sur I found is 3x a Zod now.

@darkstarhub Haha, you talking about this one? It's still sitting on my sorc, flirting with the idea of a Doom Ettin Axe, but maybe you need it more

Edit: @zoo see info above about 1.13a rune drops if you want rare but not too rare

 

[zoo]

Spoiler

Edit: @zoo see info above about 1.13a rune drops if you want rare but not too rare

I did not know they increased the drop rates in steps like that. Interesting. 1.13a also recolours the runes orange and adds respecs. Some people see these features as a good thing, others would rather play the game without them. Fortunately, we can all choose the version we ourselves enjoy the most!

All this thanks to the freedom of D2 SP gameplay. To be able to alter the game like this without any third party involvement makes this game very unique.

 

[ffs]

@GalaXyHaXz I agree, if it was a bit harder, the sense of excitement when a HR drops would certainly be more special. But I don't think we can determine here the exact ideal drop ratio, perfectly balancing rarity, feasibility of self-farming and sense of achievement when finding one. I'm with you that 1.13a drop rates probably would have been better in this regard, but in the end it doesn't make too much of a difference, does it? Most players nowadays are grown-ups, having jobs to do, many have families as well and just enjoy this game in their free time. Thus IMO it's totally fine that instead of 100 hours to find one it only takes 25 hours to find a Jah or something, because as I said the commitment/effort required is the same -- the only thing that changed is it makes much more sense to do these runs, because you can basically be certain that you will get HRs.

Also, to me having those high-end RWs doesn't mean there's nothing else to do. The perfect example I think is the pure win that is the untwinked 99er challenge. Taking part in this has been the most rewarding, most satisfying D2 experience I've had in years, and that hasn't decreased monhts after I farmed stuff like Infinity and CoH with my untwinked char. Because yes, of course it included hitting LK for those runes. But that's only a small part of a much bigger journey -- especially considering how much harder it is to hit 99 now.

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

Well I'm younger than most of you and have few obligations so I can sit around and drink and play video games xD But I see your point. I still haven't done everything, and plan on eventually joining the untwinked 99er challenge. Although I'll probably stick with 1.13a for style points

 

[zoo]

Although I'll probably stick with 1.13a for style points

While we are on the subject, is it possible to install 1.13a using the online installer or will that always install the latest version of the game?

 

[GalaXyHaXz]

@zoo That always comes with the newest version, although I believe it's still compatible with version switchers. Maybe @fearedbliss can vouch? Also, he is mirroring 1.13a and other patches here. (1.13a only installs over 1.12)

 

[zoo]

@zoo That always comes with the newest version, although I believe it's still compatible with version switchers. Maybe @fearedbliss can vouch? Also, he is mirroring 1.13a and other patches here. (1.13a only installs over 1.12)

I see. I took a quick look at my backuped files and found old Battle.Net installation files. They appear to be for version 1.12a (D2-1.12A-enGB and D2LOD-1.12A-enGB). I wonder if these still work or if they are meant to communicate with an online server somewhere.

 

[T72on1]

For people who don't want to farm places like LK ot Travincal for tens or hundreds of hours straight and only have so much time due to kids, family, RL hobbies, ... HRs aren't all that common. So HRs raining from the skies ... forget it.

And after attaining the most useful runewords, it's nice to be able to go for the more exotic ones. After all, it's not like many people already managed to complete the runeword grail, no?

When that is done, there still is plenty to do, as can be seen on these forums every single day .

 

[JoeBruce1]

@JoeBruce I'd go with low req. item for CtA, as there are so many better weapon options than CtA. Even Oath (Shael, Pul, Mal, Lum) is better, or Death. Both easier to find, though a good base will require some dedication.

And both require RWM, so I won't be making them any time soon. I always thought the "ladder only" rune words were way more powerful than the non-ladder rune words (Insight? seriously? and don't get me started on Spirit...) That definitely lends to the unbalanced nature. And many runewords are far superior to the previous elite items. It was all part of a trend at making increasingly more powerful items. Anyone willing to grind out the hours to acquire all those runes and words can more easily do so nowadays, and that can definitely lead to a "now what" feeling, but I'm on the same boat as T72: HRs are not raining from my skies.