The PvP Thread

Re: The PvP Thread

You explain it from a smiters point of view, and that is not enough. Life tap is curse that lasts 25 seconds if casted by Exile and 37 seconds if casted by gloves. Say you curse vita caster. Maybe it won't mean much to you, but let's assume bvc and bowazon are in the game. So, if they manage to get that vita caster in that time, you just offered them free heal. BvC might not profit much because of his high life, but you might cause bowazon to heal to full life because of your curse (hey, we all want Penthesilea-nuliobowa to heal to full life!). Aaaand it's not exactly science to do damage with bowa to vita caster. Then you curse someone else, and again bowa might profit dirty rich from that life tap curse, BvC can profit as well. Say you curse one bvc with life tap, he kills you, and then he is against bowa or other bvc on the battlefield with over 20 sec of life tap over his head. Good luck to him etc. Well, he can hide in some house for 20 sec until curse wears off.

But also we might include the fact that amplify damage is allowed, is super easy to cast by bonenec and is causing even more imbalances than life tap ever could.

You see, there is more way to cause imbalance in the game, not just by point of view from single character, namely smiter right now. Also, there are more characters who can abuse life tap curse to their advantage thanks to that smiter.

If strength is only problem caused by removing gloves, then simply use Immortal king's gloves. You don't even have to use respec token, however you will have extra dexterity then. Shouldn't be a problem though. You lose open wounds, that hurts more. Even rare gloves might have enough strength for your needs.

Rebuilding characters... Hey, I don't know do I have a single PvP character who I didn't rebuild at least 3 times.

However, we might agree to allow life tap from ctc sources to see how it is. Your smiter would be pretty much the only one in pvp so there shouldn't be any problems. If others agree that is.
 
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Re: The PvP Thread

Well, limiting ES to 90% isn't really good thing. If player invests into 20 point TK 20 ES and 3 into prerequisites skills, that's 40% of their skill points. To compare damage of those sorcs with vita variants (my sorcs variants)

Blizzard vita 15k, Blizzard ES, 8.5k
Fireball vita 22k, Fireball ES 12k
Lightning vita 45k, Lightning ES 24k

As you can see, sorc needs to do some heavy sacrifices to attain protection that is ES, and then you would nerf those last 5 points that get you most out of skill. If one is to invest so many points to get good protection (not to mention gear for ES is completely different than vita sorc, needs different focus and so on) he wants most he can get out of that specific skill. Last 5 points give you most out of ES so it's quite meh to ban one real advantage it gives. Also, only at 95% can idr/mdr work as you intend it to (again, requires heavy sacrifices in gear to be useful). I'm not in favor of restricting sorcs heavily. Even if they are resistant to magic damage, physical will murder them because they don't have block (I've never seen ES/block sorc) and they suck vs elemental dmg (not to mention poison/ow).
Even adapting your sorc to ES dictates both playstyle (more of a hit/run style with less dmg and more sustain) and counters you get, so it's silly to nerf them vs things that are actually decent against.

And let's clarify something. Bassano, we are not trying to ban your smiter. What we try to do is to remove skills that would otherwise break the game. Life tap is one of those. When you are cursed, you can't do anything to smiter because trading damage is not possible and it really makes some matchups impossible + makes some chars literally healing fountains (like any shaper/non teleporter for example)

Switch Exile for Spirit 45 ST and dracs for 15str/30LR gloves. You get 75 fcr breakpoints for teleporting (if you use it) and nice resists stack. I'm sure you can always ask people to use exile and no one will tell you NO. But at same time, let's keep things that are broken out of game?
When we made new rules we baned lots of things that could be used that I have/would possibly use as well. If we allow Lifetap from items floating around, why not allowing Holy Freeze from items as well?

Code: 
Doom
Berserker Axe
'HelOhmUmLoCham'
One-Hand Damage: 168 to 549
Required Dexterity: 37
Required Strength: 100
Required Level: 67
Axe Class - Fastest Attack Speed
Indestructible
Item Version: Expansion
Item Level: 87
Fingerprint: 0x550d89c
+368% Enhanced Damage
Requirements -20%
45% Increased Attack Speed
Prevent Monster Heal
+2 to All Skill Levels
Freezes Target +3
25% Chance of Open Wounds
20% Deadly Strike
Level 12 Holy Freeze Aura When Equipped
5% Chance to cast Level 18 Volcano on striking
-53% to Enemy Cold Resistance
 Ethereal (Cannot be Repaired), Socketed (5: 5 used)

I could use it to improve already crappy char that is my barb, but will that make it fun for others? Not really. And by doing that we open Pandora's box of things that are almost ok to use mixing it with standard rules. I'm sure as long as you declare that you would use Exile, if it doesn't hard counter many things in game it would be fine. We always do allow experimentation, but it would be nice if it was declared at least. So let's keep banned skills out in ruleset but rely on players giving you options of using them in if you ask. I think it's deal that no one looses from.

And rules we suggested baned one of my chars from use completely (and char that I liked playing as well) - character that I invested 3 Ber, 1.07 Ark, Zod rune and full 10 skillers with average 35 life. Am I happy with it? Not really. But it's fine as long as it makes pvp more enjoyable for other players as well.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Gripphon said:
You explain it from a smiters point of view, and that is not enough. Life tap is curse that lasts 25 seconds if casted by Exile and 37 seconds if casted by gloves. Say you curse vita caster. Maybe it won't mean much to you, but let's assume bvc and bowazon are in the game. So, if they manage to get that vita caster in that time, you just offered them free heal. BvC might not profit much because of his high life, but you might cause bowazon to heal to full life because of your curse (hey, we all want Penthesilea-nuliobowa to heal to full life!). Aaaand it's not exactly science to do damage with bowa to vita caster. Then you curse someone else, and again bowa might profit dirty rich from that life tap curse, BvC can profit as well. Say you curse one bvc with life tap, he kills you, and then he is against bowa or other bvc on the battlefield with over 20 sec of life tap over his head. Good luck to him etc. Well, he can hide in some house for 20 sec until curse wears off.

But also we might include the fact that amplify damage is allowed, is super easy to cast by bonenec and is causing even more imbalances than life tap ever could.
Click to expand...

At first, you are ocnsidering only FFA game, not duels in which you will not cause any problems with that
At second did you ever saw in PvP scene that some bowa took profit from life tap? I did not really, and for bowazon is easy to deal damage to caster (namely sorc, you will not hit windy or bone necro, chance is really few) only if caster is atacking you, if he will have life tap on head he will not come to you and in that case you have only minimal chance to hit so this arhgument I do not understand, ww barb maybe, there is bigger chance when he is hunting you but still I do not think that it will imbalance game at all

as you said amplify damage is bigger problem then life tap

frozzzen said:
And let's clarify something. Bassano, we are not trying to ban your smiter. What we try to do is to remove skills that would otherwise break the game. Life tap is one of those. When you are cursed, you can't do anything to smiter because trading damage is not possible and it really makes some matchups impossible + makes some chars literally healing fountains (like any shaper/non teleporter for example)
Click to expand...

That is not what I have problem with, even without life tap smiter is nice char and I can adjust build for that as you said, there is many options
but always there are some impossible matchups more problematic then this because lifetap you will see like once or twice during 10 duels on average, for average 30 seconds let´s say (even with exiledraculs is not so often casted), from e.g. 10 life tap curses casted only few times (2-3 probably) someone will have profit because in most cases you will kill enemy cursed by lifetap immediatelly after that that is not so big problem I think for having chance to challenge BvC´s or ES sorcs (without OW is very difficult, quite impossible) which are very often in blood moor but as I said, no problem for me to change gear, I have lot of options

frozzzen said:
When we made new rules we baned lots of things that could be used that I have/would possibly use as well. If we allow Lifetap from items floating around, why not allowing Holy Freeze from items as well?
Click to expand...

You can not compare holy freeze with life tap, that is different league, holy freeze was banned from the start from good reason, but you know that so no need to explain it :)
 
Re: The PvP Thread

I do remember a duel using my bowazon versus your smiter, omg was on my team using a BvC (2 vs 1) and we were running around the biggest rock in the moor to avoid your charge (funniest duel ever! :D) but it was really hard to kill you because all you needed was to land a hit to fully recover your life.

In that experience I agree that Life Tap was really OP. Charger/Smiter already has advantage versus those two.

I have to find that rock again :D
 
Re: The PvP Thread

@ Bassano

It's true I considered only FFA matches. That's because ratio between FFA matches and 1v1 matches is probably 30:1. Don't know does anyone play 1v1 except me and Froz.

There is only one way to test is Life Tap too strong or not, and that is to allow ctc Life Tap to test it out in more ffa matches to see where we stand.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

But you see, lifetap is banned both from necro and from charges. Why? Because it's overpowered. I think we can all agree that this would be case. If not, let's allow it (won't happen anyway).

Thing why it's banned is because it breaks one of basic rules in pvp - no restoring life. I mean sure, replenish life doesn't count since it's far from full rejuvenating potions, but things that help you restore life drastically have all been banned - potions, shrines, wells, skill based regeneration etc. And now just because "it's not overpowered in most cases" we should go around that rule and break it. My paladin was banned in less than month since I made him because he had heal, and now we are supposed to break rule to allow one build to bypass it? Feels very double sided, especially given that it's limited to one character class. It's just matter of principles and standards, so I'm fine with whatever you guys decide to do with this.

Lifetap doesn't get off once per 10 duels but instead once per 5 hits (19.25% ctc). You logic makes it look like you land one hit per two ffa rounds. 25% OW won't make any difference vs ES sorcs btw. In order to get it off you need to land on average 4 hits. Given that you use only charge vs sorcs, even 1 point charge and 400 avg dmg grief does 1200 pvp dmg. Chain those 4 hits in one chargelock and any ES sorc falls guaranteed. OW not needed. +ES sorcs are nearly extinct these days. So are BvCs. You shouldn't be overconcerned with those specific mathcups. But there is much more non ES sorcs/non BvC chars where lifetap just increases your sustain without risk (any shaper/non teleporting char). I'm done with this topic. Leaving it out to you guys.

One more change I'd implement. Me and Grip tested windy recasting cyclone armor and it looks extremely overpowered. Let's present outcome of our duels here.
His trapper vs my windy on my host 17-0 for wind druid.
His trapper vs my windy on his host roughly 70% win rate for druid.

Given that trapper is by far hardest duel for windy it easily shows that no elemental character has chance vs druid at all. FO sorcs cannot harm him even theoretically, FoHers with 1 sec cd on FOH... just lol. Blizzard and other skills that rely on lowering resists of other chars cannot touch him at all. Fireball sorc still can do it with nice FB chain but her chances are rather small.
What is your take on recast of this thing? Looks extremely overpowered to me.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

First of all, before testing I was unaware that we made some kind of silent "agreement" in here to allow cyclone armor recasting. There was word about bone armor recasting and we agreed on allowing that since clay golem is banned. Also I can hardly see cyclone armor and bone armor be comparable in "OP-ness". Bone armor still doesn't do a thing against strongest builds out there, while cyclone armor does a lot against such characters.

Also Froz, you didn't mention that you were playing with trapper and me with windy as well. Those were not so important tests since I played rather aggressively getting myself into danger too many times, but once I started to play the "proper" way, defensively, that became rather one-sided match. I had no trouble keeping 1000 hp windy alive against strongest trapper on spf. You have plenty of time to escape stunlocks and also enough time to drop tornadoes in the way. And he must shot me 3-4 times with traps to take down my cyclone armor. Unlikely if he don't stunlock me. Even when he did, if I escaped that was almost like match restarted for trapper.

From trappers point of view, you are spending a lot of mana keeping traps around and chasing windy. Many times traps shot him, I fireblasted him, and he took no damage because of cyclone armor. He took damage only when I stunlocked him really hard so he was unable to recast that easily nor escape. Even when he managed to escape with 300 life, I was like "how am I gonna kill him? Mindblast him to death or try another hard-to-accomplish stunlock to kill him?". If windy is defensive enough, I don't see what can trapper do in that match to win with any kind of consistency. And that is supposed to be very hard matchup for windy. Now if we take weaker elemental builds into consideration, that makes windy too hard to kill. Orb sorc, FoH paladin and Fire druid simply would not be able to harm windy. Trapper can harm windy only if she pull off pretty decent stunlock to prevent him from escaping and recasting. Fireball sorc has range and she is strong anyway and she might be able to do something to windy. Blizzard sorc will be really crippled by cyclone armor. She is supposed to one-shot most builds, and against windy, unless she packs really really strong blizzard, she will hardly be able to harm windy. Double blizzard shots are possible, but rather rare to take them into consideration. Lightning sorc can penetrate armor with high damage roll, but only then and with consecutive shots.

Well yes, recasting can be allowed, but it might be too strong against all elemental damage chars except a single one - fireball sorc.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Agree with life tap, topic is done for me
Also I agree that recasting cyclone armor could be too strong, and if you say you are killing trapper by windy (probably partially because of playstyle, I supposed that windy must always attack trapper, not that trapper must chase windy) it is really too strong
when I played with windy vs trapper in last tournament I did not had chance, partially because trapper waited all the time between traps and only defended position, in that way it is quite impossible to beat her
what about recasting bone armor btw.? how this topic is going on?
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Well, it partially has to do with Frozen's and mine playing style with trappers. We don't really camp among traps, we rather use them for offensive means, to try to set a stunlock on opponent. So yes, we both actually teleported on top of windy many times and windy had a chance to cast random tornado to harm trapper.

However, camping trapper is something completely different. It's extremely hard to battle camping trapper is she is controlled by player who knows what namelock is. That is battle windy can't win. What will he do, teleport inside 5 traps? Fortunately for windy, he is the one controlling that match, in some way, because he is controlling will battle occur or not. From one side, windy has to avoid to try to engage trapper inside trap field, from the other side however it can be extremely boring not to fight at all. Best choice for windy in that situation is to stay away and wait for trapper obviously, but what kind of match would that be? I assume you probably attacked him out of sportsmanship rather than anything else. Camping trappers are one of most boring opponents who are forcing stalemate rather than anything else. You shouldn't really attack them, but then again chances are nothing will happen if you don't.


Bone armor... well, it makes boner stronger in certain matchups. Especially against BvC and ghost assassin. Against bowa I don't know. Clay golem was the one causing bowazon a trouble, not armor, so I guess bowazon is now stronger against necro than she was before, even with recasting armor because she cannot be screwed like she was before. Windy... one namelock and nec is probably dead, so don't know how much bone armor can help there. Shapeshifters... Don't know is nec now stronger against them or equally strong. Clay golem was the one screwing them, not bone armor. Even if he is stronger, I can live with that. Ghost can still stunlock nec, even though it is hard to kill him. Same with BvC. So I would say recasting bone armor gave some advantage to nec, but probably mostly in 1v1 scenario rather than ffa. Strongest characters, aka trapper, fireball sorc, other nec's, blizzard sorcs etc., bone armor doesn't help against.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

We always seem to get more players in PvP weeks, sometimes people we rarely see around the forum or in IRC. I think the problem is for PvP week people arrange to be around. They get more notice, so can plan it.

I was wondering if an e-mail list would help? Or if everyone subscribes to the PvP thread in the MP forum, will it e-mail everyone when someone makes a post?

Game up tonight by the way.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Yesterday's PvP was amazing ping side. Max, whatever you did with your connection, keep it that way if possible! I mean, I felt like I was the host. Conditions were too good to miss opportunity to record some PvP. So, here are 6 videos of yesterday's PvP. 4 with FFA matches and 2 with 1v1 matches.

[youtube]pQgc-4cWKjc[/youtube]

[youtube]1KC4MDBqaJQ[/youtube]

[youtube]Bjy25TUDwc0[/youtube]

[youtube]pXdqaJufT3A[/youtube]

[youtube]iVMe0qVpqfI[/youtube]

[youtube]p_rox_1IU98[/youtube]

Also, have no idea whazzup with Open Wounds. When I cleared moor, I saw OW on creeps almost every time I started kick sequence. During PvP I don't know did I see OW once on opponents. Then after PvP I hosted self PvP and OW was on opponent with pretty much every kick sequence. I have no idea what was wrong with OW. Maybe it didn't display or something, but I saw OW on me so I exclude that. Obvious reasons like "you forgot to bug claws" are not true since I bug claws every time to get max trap laying speed. Bugged claws on video as well and no OW on opponent. Don't know what is going on...
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Fun duels yesterday. Interesting watching the action from you pov Grip. I was wondering how i managed to kill Oedipus in the last duel.
During the duels, i didn't notice much OW being applied to my zon obviously but for my sorc it was brutal after taking a few kicks.
Seems to be working fine.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

@maxicek: I think mail yould help at least for me, this time I had not chance to join even I would like to do because I was in georgia but next time you will want to play you could drop me mail and I will join

next week end e.g. I am free next after that probably too
pitty that I missed some nice PvP I just want to satisfy my apetit to win and kill :p

nice videos anyway, only 5.9k life on windy surprised me a bit griph. I thought your char are much more vita then mines :)
 
Re: The PvP Thread

5.7k to be more exact, 5.9k is only when I buff Oak at beginning. My windy is pure vita with invested stats necessary to wield equpment and rest vita. But, crappy skillers and not really fantastic circlet don't allow me to go for higher life. And windy will lose more life once I build him to have CoA setup when DR is needed. In the end that will be something like 5.5k life or close to it.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

Gripphon said:
5.7k to be more exact, 5.9k is only when I buff Oak at beginning. My windy is pure vita with invested stats necessary to wield equpment and rest vita. But, crappy skillers and not really fantastic circlet don't allow me to go for higher life. And windy will lose more life once I build him to have CoA setup when DR is needed. In the end that will be something like 5.5k life or close to it.
Click to expand...

I invested quite enough points to dexterity to have 75% block with stormshield which provide me DR and some protection vs BvCs (with shadow dancers +25 dexterity and raven frost +20 dexterity to be exact) my life is about 6.2k or simillar with 5 skillers
but you have actually very good skill to catch a sorcs :) btw. did you recasted cyclone armor? I did not saw but I am curious how rules are working now

and btw. how big is your lightning damage from traps on your kicker? I do not know builds like that so I am curious how it works
 
Re: The PvP Thread

I didn't recast armor. And thanks man.

Kicker is pure kicker. Lightning sentry is gained from claw, didn't even invest point into it. On all assassins I have access to sentry. It's range is very nice help, also works great at causing confusion when character with real sentries is around. Overall I prefer sentry to wof, except in some occasions when stun in a form of wof is better option to have.
 
Re: The PvP Thread

What would you say about allowing usage of mana potions after ES is down and is not recasted until next match?
 
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