The PvP Thread

[frozzzen1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Delsy, regarding absorb and absorb rules...

We did some math regarding those things. Difference between 90 max and 85 max resists is 50%. That is actually huge deal. Especially for players don't have access to great gear and suffer from low dmg. I mean, I can understand 90 FR, but see argument for lower maxress cap in post above.
Thundergod's Vigor is very bad vs poor hybrid assassins that don't have high dmg. vs 6000 dmg LS hybrid it's roughly 91% ress. Integer absorb really adds very fast when build is low on damage.

As for assassin't clawblock... I don't think we should tamper with class specific sources of tankyness. I don't think there is much problem allowing assassins same rules regarding maxress/sorb as any other class for couple reasons:

Barb has craploads more life than that builds his tankability. Sorc has ES that builds her tankability. Assassin has clawblock that builds her tank, and to further prove my point, amazons have dodges that can screw all spells.
For example, if you have 80LR on amazon due to fortitude, and 65% avoid when shooting you have 93% effective LR that comes from nature of character you are playing with. And I don't think we should go as far as making restrictions on classes because they can eat frw shots more than other class. To further emphasis this point, amazon can move while dodging. She can run, shoot and everything while assassin block only when she is standing/attacking. And it's not like zons are underdogs in SPF pvp. Due to insane dmg output that can be provided with 1.07 maxdmg charms (40 for GCs 12 for SCs) they can rack extreme damage and be very serious threat. Current bonjwa is nulio's bow amazon Phentesilea that has 1300 avg pvp dmg per arrow on vita setup. No need to gimp assassins clawblock cause bowas can do exactly the same, and even better than assassins.
That's just my take on it.



As far as recasting CA/BA on druid/nec, I was considering making rule that allows you to do so, but
a) if no one is on your minimap
b) if you don't have ANY absorb source on your character


That would prevent abuse, but still there's problem of it being too strong vs some builds. For nec absorb obviously doesn't matter, but rule A still would apply. Curious to hear about your ideas on those things...

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

I do get idea what are you trying to do with rule a) recasting is allowed if no one is on your minimap, but that seems very impractical to me. So, nec and druid need to run away several screens to recast, this is just supporting overly defensive play actually. Hey, I lost my cyclone armor, better get 3 screens away to recast it as well as minions etc. If we allow recasting, let it be allowed normally, not with some restrictions of no minimap sight or something. I don't really want to go and hide (instead of fighting) with druid just to be able to recast armor. Same with necromancer.

If we ban clay golem, then I would consider nec to be able to recast armor. Otherwise he is too much OP for that. Druids cyclone armor is too strong against certain builds whether he has any absorb or not. So considering all that, I don't know about recasting armors on already top tier classes in pvp world. I'm not exactly against, probably some rule of no absorb allowed on them might be fine, just saying some downsides of it.

 

[Delsy]

Re: The PvP Thread

I think it is more delicate than that Frozen. Possible combinations of items, specific character encounters etc. I don't think that mere mathematical comparison of absorbs or life is enough. For example:

You compare Barbarian with his life to Assassin. But why is it then, that there are so few Barbs playing, while Assassin is the most played character? (at least since I have been playing with you) Sure it is because of lag, but it can not be only because of that. (and even if it were, then it is a factor that has to be included in the rules) Assassin has also a ranged attack in traps and powerful Mind Blast as well. The same with Amazon, not many of them playing. You compare her DAE with claw block, but Amazon has also about half the life of Assassin, has no teleport and the counter in max block with Stormshield will make her sweat in most duels.

But this is not meant to disprove you or anything like that, just another point of view. As I have already said, I am ok with whatever Absorb you will decide upon. Just that in some other rules I have seen, Claw Block (also ES and CA) was in one way or another counted as elemental absorb, and I think for good reason.

The minimap recasting of CA is wrong IMO. Just on the first thought. But also when analysing it, most of the time you have somebody on minimap. Constant retreating would disrupt the duel badly. Also most characters are faster casters than druid so they can chase him easily, which will make this rule obsolete.

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Well, I'm just tossing ideas around. Honestly I have no clue how it would work since for as long as pvp on SPF has been active wind druids and bone necs didn't have recasts for some reason. I don't have clue why, but it's just been that way for ages. From the looks of it, people dislike minimap rule so I'm fine with removing it.

For bone nec it's fairly easy to balance him and allowing him to use armor if he ditches golem. Golem just counters so many builds, and from pov of those builds (bowa, BvC, ghost etc) even if they rely on physical dmg, I'd rather have nec recast armor than having golem that will screw me entirely if I hit him or he hits me.

Windy is much harder to balance since his armor counters so many things. Against hard foes (trapper firesorc) he becomes good contender, however against weaker builds, or those that rely on lowering your resists, such as blizzard, orb sorc or foher he becomes outright overpowered, and that's part of spectrum that we need to balance as well. As it is right now, he has solid chances vs those builds, but with CA recasting he would become 100% impossible to defeat. Any suggestion to balance that part? I mean, we shouldn't really allow recasting it freely vs those builds. Or you might have better solution? We just don't want to make wind druid that is already top tier character even more overpowered.

Now comparison of zon dodges and assassin clawblock... I can sure see where you come from, but not too long ago bowazons were most common pvp class around without doubt. Probably 3/7 players in moor were bowas all the time. Assassins, more specifically ghosts have made bowas very unfavorable class to play these days. Actually, this is first time in history of SPF pvp that assassins have been most played class. 2012 was time of ES sorcs, 2013 was mostly bowas and now people moved to assasins from the looks of it. Are barbs next?

I certainly don't think that bowas should have different treatment from assassins when it comes to sorb restrictions due to SPF having rather bad history regarding zons :badteeth: But I do see your point for sure. At any rate, even if we abide by Polish rules and allow max 5ress and RF, it wouldn't make any difference on my assassins because I don't make them in mind with sorb options. However even if we do put some restrictions on assassin with CB, I'd probably think of same treatment for amazons as well. Not all amazons are bowazons, there are LF and poison variants who can rack equal/close life to assassins and still have better options to counter spells with their dodges. Just thought to consider.

I'm not saying it should be a) or b) or anything, but we need more opinions on this matter.

 

[NagisaFurukawa]

Re: The PvP Thread

Assassins get played a lot in large part because of the players involved. I'm pretty sure assassin is the favorite class for maxicek/frozzzen, possibly among others, so that will easily skew any distribution. They also have some of the higher item/skillcap builds, so many people enjoy them just for the challenge of building/playing them.

I don't really understand the Claw Block argument. It's always a tradeoff of having a crappier time against bowazon/barbarian/etc. in exchange for having extra security against casters. D/A/E meanwhile works against everything on a character which already has max block/DR. Amazon does have 0-50% lower HP usually, but her damage output is much greater as well as much harder to mitigate.

As for LS/MB, they are strong, but they aren't any reason to choose assassin over other class unless you just enjoy the skills themselves. MB is the only reason assassins are even viable, and it isn't effective at all against many characters. That's hardly the case with any other class's gamebreaking skill. LS meanwhile is pathetically easy to negate, takes a long time to actually fire, and requires sacrifices when building character that few other classes have to deal with, ie. IAS requirements on a pseudo-caster. The skills do work wonderfully together, but the skill cap required is much more ridiculous than firing off a train of Bone Spirit or something. This is not even mentioning that everything goes out the window the moment a Clay Golem touches you.

/assassinfanboy

 

[Colony]

Re: The PvP Thread

My general view of the proposed changes is that they're going in the right direction, but still need some work doing on the details. The general and prebuff sections are mostly ok, but the absorb and skills sections need some careful thought. Overall I'd say they're worth trying and if they work out then great, else tweak them slightly where necessary.

Point by point:
1 - 5 - Seems fine to me

6 - The most controversial one for me. Obviously I'm biased here, but are bone necros really that hard to beat now? Every build has some relatively hard counters, there's no way round that fact - think ghosts vs. barbs, windies vs. trappers, or even necros vs. ES sorcs. Banning clay golem is a big step and will make a difference to the way necros play. Fire golem has much lower life and costs a lot more mana than clay.

As for life tap I honestly can't remember the last time I even saw an Exile smiter - their effect on SPF PvP as a whole is negligible. Personally, even when they were much more common, I never saw LT as a problem when I was facing one with any build (even my barb).

I'm neutral on the prayer/cleansing/medi ban. It does mean I can no longer use cleansing on paladins against poison damage, but given there are so few poison based builds around I don't have a preference either way.

7 - As with life tap, yes CM is very strong, but there aren't many blizzard sorcs around as it is. High life characters can cope perfectly fine with dual ravens. Low life characters are generally casters (with the exception of zons) and have more flexibility in equipment (yes, you have to compromise in a FFA, just like against other strong builds). A limit of 1 point in CM will probably push them all towards using ES - not sure what the net effect on playstyle would be, but worth bearing in mind.

8 - Fair enough with me

9 - I don't know what the reasoning behind the original ban on recasting these was. If clay golem is banned then I'd definitely be for allowing recasting of bone armour. As for cyclone armour, why not allow recasting and then reconsider that decision if it turns out to have been incorrect? Either allow it completely or not at all though - however, only allowing it when no one's on the minimap encourages defensive play, as already discussed

10-14 - Fine with me - not sure where the 12% absorb come from - presumably a damage calculation? I'm assuming Anya quests aren't included in the 175 absorb for number 12? Either way, it needs to be clarified.

I wouldn't agree with the previous discussion on having a different max resist value for fire though. 85 to 90% resistance is huge - as Froz said it's 50% - the difference between around 340 final damage from a 20k fireball with 90 resist, as opposed to 510 with 85. That's the difference between an 8 hit kill and a 12 hit kill on a character with 4,000 life. From past experience I can tell you that trying to kill a hammerdin using hotspurs with a fire sorc is not fun in the slightest (and that was back when they had generally had under 4k life).

15 - 17 - No issues and makes sense. I've never liked prebuffing and I don't think anyone does it excessively anymore, but may be worth formalising.

 

[Delsy]

Re: The PvP Thread

So far nobody was against not recasting cyclone and bone armors. That rule seems to be ok, good and simple.

Clay Golem. I don't know how it is from the nec's perspective. But from zon's one, once I hit the golem I turn into a snail for 30 seconds or so. All I can do is run around and try to survive. It would make me happy if clay golem was banned, but if it won't be, not a big deal.

 

[bassano]

Re: The PvP Thread

my personal opinions to rules above :

general rules are OK for me, replenish 50 seems fair enough for me, I do not think that much player will use it anyway

from rule 6 : life tap is banned in sense of direct casting or even from exile or that gloves I do not remember name? because I think that smiter with exile should not be kicked out from PvP scene, that build is nice and life tap is not so often effective at all
About cleansing I think that this skill was most often used as defense againist curses and poison damage (assasin do it by fade automatically), I think this should be kept as was, My only problem was replenish build, this seems OK to me
why meditation? because of ES sorcs with that meditation runeword on switch? in other case no problem with that from my side because you can spam lot of mana pots from belt or from ground
banning clay golem: I am not sure that clay golem is so strong to be banned, and it will give me advantage only vs some builds and very occasionally I think

rule 7: blizzard sorc with huge mastery is problem only in FFA, and I think FO sorc with full cold mastery is much better then blizzard with one point there, FO is very hard to avoid as soon as by blizzard is very hard to hit somethink but no problem with that rule for me because I do not want to die by one random blizzard spike as usual and I will not stack cold resist so much because of it

rule 8a) I am agree only partially with this, taking lower resist wand with me offer me tactical advantage and give me gear disadvantage because I need to carry that wand in my inventory for that (if will not be combined with CTA prebuff before duel, no problem with lower resist charges for me), in team duel that seems much more effective because that player do not need to carry CtA if someone will give him BO, in team duel I do not agree with this practise because it is too simple to do that

rule 9: I am still conservative in this rule, recasting bone armor same as cyclone armor is very strong againist certain group of builds

rules about absorb: no problem with lowering possibility of pushing resist on top from my side this will makes duel more sharp and more offensive but on the same logic ES should be capped on 85% damage reduced aswell(whatever item you will use on prebuff it, regarding rules about prebuff), sorry, but I am not able to challenge 95% ES sorc with 1.07 shako and possibly stormshield (I am not sure now how it works tohether with ES) with resist 85, that is rule which give sorc unfair advantage vs physical damage builds, it will make PvP scene more like rock/paper/scissor

15,16) I do not agree with any prebuff from stash, not memory, not CtA, my opinion is if you want to do any prebuff, take all items with yourself to moor but I am not willing to lead fight about this rule so whatever you want, take this only as my opinion

17) how you define low tier character, this should by done by some list of character or whatever to stop some another argue

as for discussion bellow: I do not think assasins are too strong againist all builds, it is simply nice challenge play builds like that with many buttons etcetc. it is not only by their strenght (e.g. denton was biggest fan of assasin builds years ago when he was quite only one playing them)

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Ban on Clay Golem:
Nec is strong, that is true, but he is not too strong to beat, that is also true. Reason to ban Clay Golem is because he almost destroys winning chances of several builds and is terribly imbalanced in some duels because of it.

I'm sure that Clay Golem is mega counter for any amazon, no matter is she bowazon or plaquezon. One tick from golem and amazon can barely attack and moves very slow. Zon lost everything because of single touch from Clay Golem. It's almost like you can simply forfeit the match. I experienced it several times and I know it's terribly hard to fight against ANY opponent once golem cripples you. You are pretty much reduced to running around waiting until slow wears off, until then it takes ages for amazon to do a single attack, let alone attack several times.

Any character without Enigma, including werewolf and werebear variants, are also screwed when Clay Golem is around. One tick and they move around slow, attack slow and are overall much weaker for that period of time. Those characters hardly stand a chance of winning, but with Clay Golem around they must either avoid chasing nec or simply pray that golem won't hit them, or they don't hit golem. If that happens, pretty much gg for them.

Assassins don't have too much trouble with Clay Golem, but still it's not nice when you accidentally hit golem or he hits you, suddenly your trap laying speed is considerably slower. Well, not that much slower, but it does take like twice as long to lay a single trap. It pains kicker even more since her kicks are crippled as well, so overall Clay Golem does considerable influence on her.

WW characters. They are auto-slowed with Clay Golem around. Is that a problem? Well, not that much, but considering the nature of WW in pvp, slow from golem can hurt. It does happen many times your char is whirling at place after teleport+ww combo is attempted. In reality you do very long whirlwind toward point you clicked on previous screen before you tele'd. If your whirwind is slower, you will stuck longer in whirlwind making yourself a free punching target for everyone around. It didn't happen one time I stucked in whirlwind for considerably long time because of golem slow and took like 50-60% damage just in that one whirlwind until char unstuck from whirlwind animation so I can finally teleport away. Better BvC's attempt to use Berserk as well, but slow from Golem pretty much makes sure that you can't use Berserk at all because you attack too slow to be effective. Only way to prevent that is to stun golem or whatever that he can't attack you while you zerk nec with 0 defense. WW assassin will automatically lay traps slower if she attempts to ww attack nec, it's almost impossible not to hit golem in the process.

Any character that relies on fast attack, like zealot, or berserker, or werewolf/werebear, or kicker, will suffer penalty from random Clay Golem touch, some of them might be totally screwed because of it as explained. And not only toward necro, but toward any other opponent. Touch my bowazon, and I can't kill that vita sorc and can hardly escape from her attacks for example.

Overall, there are plenty of reasons why is banning Clay Golem a good idea. It has nothing to do with nec's strength, it's Clay Golem himself that is imbalanced like hell against several opponents.


80% resist + 12% absorb, where did 12% come from? It's calculation. Take 100 damage projectile. You take 20 damage cause of resists. Consider 12% absorb on top of it and you take 15 damage in the end. It's like having 85% resist which is our goal. Any absorb over 12% limit and you are over 85% limit in the end.


I agree with reasoning with 85% vs 90% max resist allowed. Against 85% firesorc can still fight normally. Against 90% she is forced to camp away from that opponent and spam fireballs. 90% is encouraging defensive play too much, nothing more. It's not like it's unwinable match by sorc or something, not at all, but she is forced to fight like a coward which will naturally take match toward annoying duration. You want to wait 3-5 minutes in front of Blood Moor for our match to finish just because opponent has 90% resist on my fireball? Fine with me, I somehow doubt it will be fine for people who wait. But hey, whatever works.

90% on other resists IS too much. It will be either 90% on fire resist and 85% on other resists, or 85% resists all. 90% allowed on lightning resist means exactly the same thing, overly defensive play and long duration of duel. 90% poison will just render poison character useless. Or close to it. That's my reasoning with allowed 85% max resist instead of 90%. I'm not against 90% max rule, but don't blame me if it took me several minutes to kill that hammerdin with fireball sorc or something and you wait for us to finish.


Lower resist wand in FFA: It makes some builds too strong. Well, you can counter it with few charms, but still not doable for all builds. You want to take 2.5k fireball damage or be smashed by traps? In team games it's easier to adapt to it because in ffa you are at your own and must adapt against all opponents, in team battles chances are you will have to adapt only at single elemental, or eventually 2. That's reasoning in allowind wand in team battles and not in ffa, but I'm fine if we completely ban that thing and let's give that speciality only to Poisonmancer. Or some evil bonemancer.


Limiting upper limit of ES: That was our first idea, to limit ES to 90% max, with exception of lightning sorc which can go up to 95%. Then we changed it to 2 items prebuff allowed so sorc can reach 95% if she wants to. So Bassano, your suggestion is to go back and limit upper limit of allowed ES % to have because 95% are too strong. I won't say anything on that matter, will wait for someone more competent to tell something. For me it seems anything might work, since limiting upper limit of ES % allowed was my idea in the first place. But I'm also fine with 2 items prebuff allowed and allow 95 ES sorc to appear.

 

[Colony]

Re: The PvP Thread

Regarding the absorb/max res discussions I'd agree that 90 is too much and that a maximum of 85 on all elements would work best. I'm just being difficult because I don't understand what makes fire so different to lightning or cold damage that means 90% max res should be allowed against fire.

Ban on Clay Golem:
Nec is strong, that is true, but he is not too strong to beat, that is also true. Reason to ban Clay Golem is because he almost destroys winning chances of several builds and is terribly imbalanced in some duels because of it.

I'm sure that Clay Golem is mega counter for any amazon, no matter is she bowazon or plaquezon. One tick from golem and amazon can barely attack and moves very slow. Zon lost everything because of single touch from Clay Golem. It's almost like you can simply forfeit the match. I experienced it several times and I know it's terribly hard to fight against ANY opponent once golem cripples you. You are pretty much reduced to running around waiting until slow wears off, until then it takes ages for amazon to do a single attack, let alone attack several times.

This is the example given where I'd agree that clay golem can be a big problem - it's effect on zons is much bigger than the other classes. The other builds have ways to mitigate the effect - were-form druids have rabies, where all you have to do is bite the golem and then the necro will die very quickly due to the poison spreading. Sins have BoS. Barbs inherently have massive FRW from skills and items. I'd say it's worth seeing what the difference is like without it though, particularly now that respecs are available.

 

[maxicek]

Re: The PvP Thread

Don't agree with 1a. It encourages spamming rather than targeted play. Gives almost unlimited mana to bone necros. Bowazons should choose to drop a damage charm for extra arrows.

I will also re-state my previous point: What specific problems are trying to be fixed? This should be clear before any "solutions" are developed. I don't recall any particular build or character dominating in PvP week 12.

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

General problem: old pvp rules are outdated and need to be either updated or replaced with new rules.

Specific problem 1: mass poison rule restriction useless

Specific problem 2: max 25 replenish life limit is crap. So I can't use hoto + dungo on same char for whatever reason. Let alone use ring that accidentally has replenish life along with 2 items. I'm very unsatisfied with that rule and want something better and more realistic, not some sort of argument like "someone can go in Travincal with over 25 replenish and heal there". He can do that with 20 replenish too if he is that desperate.

Specific problem 3: "No curse charges (this includes Slow Missiles). Chance to cast is acceptable.". So, you want to battle against kicker that uses Lawbringer with bowazon? I don't. If skill is banned, that skill is also OP even if it is "accidentally" cast by chance to cast.

Specific problem 4: no over absorb rule tells nothing about what over absorb is. Following the rules I can still manage to get to very high resist to element where there is no point in fighting. I want more specific rule, especially one where it is clearly stated what overabsorb is.

Specific problem 5: some players consider Clay Golem to be too imbalanced in some matches and should be banned. He is not banned in current ruleset, therefore that golem is making very imbalanced situations. All slows are banned, but Clay Golem, which has strongest of all slows, is still allowed. Some of us complain about using that summon.

Specific problem 6: Old ruleset says nothing about prebuffing. So, you are allowed to prebuff with 50 items making super imba mega characters. We think that it should be stated something about this matter. We don't have such problems in current pvp since no one is prebuffing like that, but it doesn't mean we could not use rule like that.

SPecific problem 7: We think Blizzard sorcs are too annoying to battle, almost impossible to counter and no matter how hard you try to build your character, they will one shot you with zero effort invisible blizzard. They are not OP, but are very annoying to play against. Rule of 1 CM won't change anything as long as players don't try to rise cold resist to survive single blizzard hit. Cold resist will actually make some sense in pvp with this rule. Otherwise cold resist is here just to counter Hurricane, nothing more.

Hopefully I made this clear enough now.

Also, as for rule 1.a). If that rule is not fine, then we must have rule that it is prohibited to pick any potion or arrows during the match, otherwise nothing will stop me from picking potions from other players who died before me. And if we don't add such rule, then I see no logical reason not to throw potions out so any player can pick them out since I'm allowed to pick potions from the ground anyway. I want clear rule here.

 

[maxicek]

Re: The PvP Thread

General PvP rules:

1. Mana potions are allowed for all classes (except for the ES sorceress).
1. a) It is allowed to drop potions in front of blood moor entrance. Same applies to arrows.
2. No minions that cannot be summoned in town with the exception of Decoy.
3. Replenish life is capped at 50.
4. Slow is capped at 10%.
5. Poison dmg from charms is not capped at all.

My only concern here is 1a). I think that it encourages spamming from some builds that don’t need un-limited mana. Arrows is easily sorted by dropping one GC. If you are worried about running out, you do it, if you aren’t you don’t. I do on my bowazon. I appreciate that even an non-ES sorc can spam and hardly need pots though. I think this point needs more discussion.

Skills:

6. Banned skill are: Slow Missiles, Holy Freeze, Mediation, Prayer, Cleansing, Iron Maiden, Decrepify, Bone Prison, Life Tap and Clay Golem. Those skills are banned in any form or shape, regardless of their source. (Doom, Exile, Lawbringer etc)
6. a) Items containing banned skills charges aren't banned but using those charges is. (Marrowwalks, Sanctuary etc)
7. Cold Mastery is capped at one point only for Blizzard sorceress class.
8. All charges from items are allowed, with exception of banned skills. (Oak from Hoto is allowed, Wolves from Crescent moon are allowed)
8. a) Lower resists from wand charges is only allowed in team duels.
9. No recasting Cyclone and Bone Armor.

6. I can’t recall the last time I saw life tap in a duel. My Smiter has dracs but not Exile. Life tap never went off when I used him, it was more for the OW. With some of the mega mages charging around these days, the banned skills look OK to me.
7. Interesting. Not a problem for me and seems reasonable as we all play FFA these days. But what if we did do a tournament?
8. Quite like this. A necro on the the team often means it is difficult to balance things if there are casters in the game, this helps to balance things out.
9. I’m still agreeing with this. I like rules to be black or white. You can either do it or you can’t. Please no “you can do it if….†rules.

Absorb:

10. Maximum resists are capped at 85 without any absorb.
11. 75 resists + 20% absorb is allowed, 80 ress + 12% sorb is allowed.
12. Two Ravenfrosts are allowed as long as you have 175 cold resists or less.
13. Banned items: 1.07 LoH, Rising Sun, Blackoak Shield, Hotspurs, Thundergod's Vigor.
14. Resistance stack is not counted as absorb.

The exact resist numbers apply before or after Battle Command for barbs? I do worry that these exact numbers may be difficult to achieve bang on for some characters. On some assassins I have varying fade levels depending on the exact gear I use. I am never going to calculate mid duel down to the last 1 or two resist points. In practice I have never used absorb on an assassin anyway, so it doesn’t matter.

Prebuff:

15. Call to arms can be used from stash for all classes (no buffing with any additional items, including shields; just gear you use)
16. ES can be prebuffed with maximum two items
17. Prebuff is fine for low tier pvp characters (Cold armor sorcs, wolfbarbs, fuzzydodgers etc)

Personally I can’t stand pre-buffing on any of my characters, but appreciate there are those who can be bothered. I was swapping items out of the cube to cast BO etc on my bowfin in the last PvP week. What about if all pre-buff / weapon switch items had to be carried on the character - cube in inventory?
17. I prefer either it is out completely. In PvP week 11 most people would have put kickers in that list. I don’t think they will since the last PvP week. I don’t play any of the characters mentioned, so can’t comment more. We have seen in the past OMG pre-buffing with Fade from Treachery - This is clearly excessive and should be restricted. As you mentioned before, part of the reason for rules is not to restrict what people are currently doing, but what they could do in extreme cases.

Overall though, they look good.

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Pros of not using rule 1.a)
1. Less spamming all around and therefore less chaotic environment.
2. Builds that "don't" really need mana (they do actually, but they don't need to get stronger, in that sense), like bone necromancers or trappers, will be even stronger if they can use pots from the ground.
3. People will care more about building characters with more mana. If they can drink potions from ground, they can play with lower mana focusing more on survivability and damage.

Pros of using 1.a)
1. More fluid playing. If you can't use pots from ground, your playing style will be more conserved, even more of camping nature to have more mana for concrete actions. If you have potions on the ground, you can play all-out all the time.
2. Faster paced duels. Same reason as above, players will camp less and will play seeking for hit opportunities, rather than waiting for opportunity. Less defensive playing, more offensive playing.
3. Players with weaker builds stand more chance against better equipped characters. Richer people can make characters with much more mana than poor players, and they will therefore have too much advantage because of it if we are not allowed to pick potions from ground. Now poor player can spam as much as rich player increasing his winning chances. Think of my now near 1500 mana bone necro or 800+ mana ghost assassin.
4. Winning the match because other player is out of mana can be a matter of poorly built character, but also a matter of situation. Sometimes it totally suck when great battle ends because one player is out of mana. That like totally ruins the whole match.
5. Sorceresses don't have that much advantage over other builds. If you can't pick potions from ground, then sorc, who don't really need potions, might win too many matches because opponent will stay out of mana.

Rule 7: I believe tournaments might have their own rules. It's easy to change any of stated rules for tournament case.

Rule 12: Rule that might need some polishing. Yes, it can be difficult to have exact number of cold resist, especially if you swap gear around.

Rule 17: We must state what those builds are. It is not done yet. Generally here goes builds who are major underdogs in many matches and almost stand no chance at winning ffa match. It might be different for 1v1 scenario where some of those builds can be very strong, depending on who they are fighting.

 

[bassano]

Re: The PvP Thread

/Limiting upper limit of ES: That was our first idea, to limit ES to 90% max, with exception of lightning sorc which can go up to 95%. Then we changed it to 2 items prebuff allowed so sorc can reach 95% if she wants to. So Bassano, your suggestion is to go back and limit upper limit of allowed ES % to have because 95% are too strong. I won't say anything on that matter, will wait for someone more competent to tell something. For me it seems anything might work, since limiting upper limit of ES % allowed was my idea in the first place. But I'm also fine with 2 items prebuff allowed and allow 95 ES sorc to appear.

2 items on prebuff is not restriction at all, and % of ES should be limited on same level as resist, in other case you are giving much more advantage to ES sorcs
95% fire resist on windy or on smiter is same good as 95% ES on sorc, and windy or smiter must catch you, sorc is fine with spaming spells and running away, but windy have much more life
but last time I palyed vs pyrro 95% ES sorc in tournament, it was ballanced only with 95% of resist, so definitelly limit level of ES this is strict opinion for me no more no less

and how it is exactly with that life tap? is CTC acceptable?
and about clay golem I disagree to ban him, even if some few builds can have problem with that golem, for me is not reason to make such a drastic restriction, bonenecros are not so owning anymore I think
And I also agree with max that rule should be strict and enough easy to understand as less exceptions as possible

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Ctc is not acceptable with any banned skill, because ctc can ruin the game as much as active casting of banned skill can. That's why we proposed the rule of banning any source of banned skill, be it active casting or ctc.

As for Clay Golem ban, those few builds that have problem with that golem, are also pretty much ruined by that same golem. Just to be clear about this, we are not talking about disadvantage caused by golem, we are talking about nearly destroying purpose of fighting. Any amazon build and any shapeshifter build are screwed. While rabies druid can take down nec affecting golem with rabies, he will still be almost a sitting duck for the rest of players on the battlefield because he will move very slow and basically can't approach or escape from anyone. Luckily Frozzzen is the only one having rabies druid who actively play with him and his druid has 11k life or something like that, so it is not obvious what disadvantage clay golem is causing. But if you affect my 8k life rabies druid, that is totally different story.

Let's say it this way. Bone necro is at disadvantage when fighting high ES sorc. But bone nec is then screwed only against single class, and even in those class not all sorcs use ES, so it is very good chance you won't have to fight a single ES sorc during pvp. Now let's take Clay Golem who hits amazon or shapeshifter. They are screwed against all opponents, not just necro. It's like necro must fight in a ffa match with 6 ES sorcs for considerable amount of time.

Col suggested that we try no-clay golem playing to see how things work. Proposed rules will be tested in many matches. If things don't work, we can easily change them, enabling Clay Golem and similar.

 

[nulio]

Re: The PvP Thread

95% ES is not the same as 95% fr/lr/etc. It's not hard to completely/partially empty the sorceress' mana after a couple of hits and after that she will be very weak. And having to spend 40 skill points to optain it is huge.

And when was the last time we had a ES sorc dominating the Moor? Vita ones are more popular these days and not as glass-cannony as before.

Limiting pre-buffing will work to make ES sorcs less powerfull since they need to invest more skill points in ES having less free points for synergies.


How did it go the new rule testing in the Moor?

 

[frozzzen1]

Re: The PvP Thread

I liked it.

Mostly talking about bone nec not having golem here. I played 1v1 mostly, and while I did have problem with ghost vs maxblock nec due to him recasting bone armor, most of those problems come simply from me not being good enough player and from hard matchup in general.
I can say that bone armor recasting IS deal breaker in that specific matchup since I took col down when he wasn't recasting and failed to do so when he was recasting bone armor, but tradeoff is more than fair imo.
Even if I would probably be better in ghost vs nec duel, I think having to use fire golem is better for FFA, where I'd be slowed by touching clay golem and would not be able to use BoS to counter golem slow due to -70 allress and 40 DR I loose from fade.

So even if it was my undoing, I'm happy with change because it would make FFA more playable for everyone even if it hinders my chances in 1v1.

 

[Gripphon1]

Re: The PvP Thread

Last time ES sorc dominated the Moor was probably when Sapphire retired. But that also has to do with people not bothering to make high ES sorcs and play with them today. 95 ES sorcs are usually some lightning sorcs or random orb sorc, and they are not really comparable with fireball or blizzard sorcs. It's possible to make very very strong sorc today, both vita and ES variant. But players who are able to make such sorc probably don't consider it fun to play with her anyway.

 

[bassano]

Re: The PvP Thread

95% ES is not the same as 95% fr/lr/etc. It's not hard to completely/partially empty the sorceress' mana after a couple of hits and after that she will be very weak. And having to spend 40 skill points to optain it is huge.

that is right, but still 95 vs 85 is 3 times better protection and physical damage is more common then specific elementar damage, at least limit to 90% ES would be nice

And when was the last time we had a ES sorc dominating the Moor? Vita ones are more popular these days and not as glass-cannony as before.

in same time as you saw life tap smiter there and still in rules is intention to ban this skill, for which I see no reason, due to rules like that I need to rebuild lot of builds because I do not have strenght for CoA without that gloves with life tap and vs BvC smiter will be even more useless without exile+gloves , vs other builds life tap did not usually worked anyway because you need only really few hits to kill caster so not neough time to cast it by some random hit