City Mafia Game Thread

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I've only played a draft game in which it was made public who picked which roles. Roleclaiming can be useful here, but only on day one and if we start from the bottom of the list. But the fun lies in not knowing and keeping the WIFOA feel to it.

If mass roleclaims happen, claims from bottom up has merit. The earliest picker among the living can lie their arse off, but the last person always can.

I still disagree with the idea that mass roleclaims are useless unless they happen on D1. Mass roleclaims serve two main purposes: give the town information (cop, role thief, watcher, tracker, role cop, bus driver, roleblocker, coroner, jailkeeper results) and force mafia to declare the role they must live up to the rest of the game. If mafia pick and received a power role, having to announce their targets each night thus far and continue announcing their targets each day thereafter will go a long way toward ferreting out said mafia.

I'm also against lynching Noodle. Maybe would want to lynch him as soon as possible, because there is a high chance he went for doc or for some other role that granted him NK immunity, thus they would want him lynched, rather than waste an NK on him.

You're sounding fairly certain that Noodle is town. Just an observation.

Also, do you think a host would allow mafia to choose mason? That would give the mafia a HUGE advantage over the town with having an inside man. But if that's the case, that means masons are no longer real masons and they now have to worry about each and ever one of them. WIFOA.

Yes, I think the host would allow WIFOA circumstances in a WIFOA game. Masons should only be confirmed when/if they confirm themselves. Barring that, I'm assuming any mason could be mafia.

Goryani's "What position do you think is the lowest number to receive their choice and not a duplicate?":
The lower the better. Still, this has the flaw that many may have thought the same. I chose two lower numbers (8 and 15) to avoid duplicates and still I didn't get the tree stump role.

Roleclaim?

Interesting; so the ideal scenario would be for the stump to claim on the first day, so that the lynch number decreases, allowing the town a slightly more successful chance to lynch someone. Am I right?

Treestump claiming doesn't always affect the lynch numbers. It depends on the number of players alive. If I'm reading the rules right, a treestump claiming with 18 players alive (17 voters after claiming) will affect lynch numbers. A treestump claiming with 17 players alive (16 voters after claiming) won't affect the lynch numbers.

Lowering the lynch numbers doesn't mean it's the ideal scenario. The person lynched isn't more or less likely to be mafia (which is kind of a requirement for ideal scenario).

A townie treestump claiming effectively lowers the number of townies by 1. A townie treestump not claiming and getting night killed also lowers the number of townies by 1 but also prevents a power role from being killed. Same non-claiming townie treestump can vote up until claiming treestump.

A mafia treestump claiming effectively lowers the number of mafia by 1 - the same as getting lynched. However, and this is a BIG however, the mafia treestump can't be lynched to prove they are anti-town. They may continue to talk and influence others and it becomes exceedingly difficult to prove the mafia treestump is mafia. Also, they can potentially lower the vote number to lynch and lock a townie at L-1. A mafia treestump not claiming is in a pretty good position since it's what a good townie would do. They can run interference for other mafioso with the Ace in the hole of claiming while denying the town a prove/disprove the alignment.

In case you can't tell, mafia treestump is one of the roles I'm most worried about. Look at what happened to the mafia "treestump" in the Half-Life game. It's brutal.

 

[Sathoris]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

OK, first off, not sure why suggesting something in a new formatted game deserves a vote, and even despite getting that vote I am going to divulge further since most people have suggested it is a bad idea.

It isnt as cut and dry as "well then we lynch the number 2 spot picked, then the 3 spot, then the 4" no, this is specifically Noodle that is a big danger.

I understand that there is a 75% chance that he is town..but guess what? There is a 75% chance that ANYONE we lynch is town on day 1. Also, everyone who picked AFTER noodle has a higher and higher chance of being vanilla mafia or town. This is why that everyone is less and less dangerous the further down the list we go (assumedly) because they could be vanilla. Vanilla Mafia vs Mason Mafia is an insane difference.

It is a huge risk because if he's town he most likely has a power role, but, IDK, powerful powerful mafia could be in play here.

Another thought: Does anyone think the Mafia could communicate their choices to one another?

Stop digging my man..

This is exactly why I'm not sure a mafia mason is that dangerous. I see no reason that Cal wouldn't allow mafia in mason group, which pretty much renders the mason group useless.

Not really, we're already discussing it so the masons will too. Part of the fun, like a mafia cop outing his buddy to gain town cred could. Introduce a little anarchy. I'd be dissapointed if mafia weren't allowed to pick a mason role. CG already warned the balance might be way off. And we're responsible for that. I hope town was smart and picked roles that would help us instead of going for the powerhouses or treestumps and ending up empty handed.

/end fluff post

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

OK, first off, not sure why suggesting something in a new formatted game deserves a vote, and even despite getting that vote I am going to divulge further since most people have suggested it is a bad idea.

It isnt as cut and dry as "well then we lynch the number 2 spot picked, then the 3 spot, then the 4" no, this is specifically Noodle that is a big danger.

I understand that there is a 75% chance that he is town..but guess what? There is a 75% chance that ANYONE we lynch is town on day 1. Also, everyone who picked AFTER noodle has a higher and higher chance of being vanilla mafia or town. This is why that everyone is less and less dangerous the further down the list we go (assumedly) because they could be vanilla. Vanilla Mafia vs Mason Mafia is an insane difference.

It is a huge risk because if he's town he most likely has a power role, but, IDK, powerful powerful mafia could be in play here.

Can mafia Noodle do worse damage than townie Noodle could help?

Another thought: Does anyone think the Mafia could communicate their choices to one another?

I doubt it. The wording CG used to describe the game seemed to exclude that possibility:

Step 1) All players are assigned to town / mafia. For the purposes of this game, there will be no neutral parties. PMs are sent to everyone telling them what faction they belong to. However, mafia members are not yet made aware of who their partners are.
Step 2) [bidding process]
Step 3) [picking process]
Step 4) Mafia are given the names of their team members, and the game then proceeds as normal.

It sounds like mafia didn't know each other until after picks are chosen. They still won't know each others' picks unless they can day talk or CG provided that info when providing the names to each of the mafia.

 

[Ankeli1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Can mafia Noodle do worse damage than townie Noodle could help?

I absolutely love you for that comment. You put my thoughts into words I could not. :cloud9:

 

[Gambor]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

The treestump of mafia doom is an option I hadn't thought of, but it's a good point. Other than that, I think the main avoidable danger by lynching high would be in nabbing the SK. That said, I just don't think we would do well in trying to lynch based on the list rather than lynching based on play.

 

[flubbucket1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

...It's a risk to start lynching from the top just because they COULD be stronger mafia. An unnecessary risk. I'd rather lynch based on play and somewhat ignore the list in that regard.

This is a sensible statement.

...That said, I just don't think we would do well in trying to lynch based on the list rather than lynching based on play.

As well as this. I agree with making decisions based on gameplay not a list.

Hence the "kinda" qualification.


What did Gambor and I do?

And you are being needlessly coy...

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I'm really looking forward to this game.

Let me toss a question out there for you, at least the ones that know me and my play style better: You're me, you have the 3rd pick, what do you pick?

I'm also not so fond on lynching Noodle just because he had the first pick. His chances of being mafia are the same as everyone else. It's a very conditional thing to lynch him just because IF he was mafia, then he had free reign to choose. To be honest, were I mafia and on the no. 1 spot I would've more than likely gone for one of the mason roles. No better way to cover your tracks than to be chatting with a few townies every night, essentially winning their trust AND delivering their concerns to your mafia buddies.

Why ninja?

I'm with coju on this one, I considered ninja just because it sounded awesome, although in practical use its terrible mainly because theres a possibility that no one choose the watcher/tracker roles so what good would it really do? I feel the same way about the masons though, is there a possibility that one of them could be mafia? Yes. But what are the real chances of their actually being all three masons? Probably slim to none since there were much more lucrative power roles available and the possibility of two people both picking Mason A.

One more question for everyone:
What role(s) do you think is most dangerous in the hands of mafia?

Our style has some subtle differences that occasionally appear, but we regularly use that wiki to discuss roles.

As mafia you'd take a role just so the town didn't have it. You're devious. I like it.

I'm not really devious, but I think logically, and if I were playing mafia I would want to give the mafia a better chance at avoiding mised night kills or being investigated. That being said I had to think of ways to improve our chances with the high possibility of being night killed early on since I was one of the first to pick.

Goryani's "If a treestump claims before the end of D1, the number of players alive will drop and the lynch numbers will change.":
Interesting; so the ideal scenario would be for the stump to claim on the first day, so that the lynch number decreases, allowing the town a slightly more successful chance to lynch someone. Am I right?

It produces a slightly more successful chance to lynch only if we are one away from a lock, and if the treestump is mafia this could be dangerous since they could produce a lock on a townie rather than a mafia.

If mass roleclaims happen, claims from bottom up has merit. The earliest picker among the living can lie their arse off, but the last person always can.

Roleclaim?

Bottom up would be the only useful method as those at the bottom claiming to "not" be vanilla have a high chance of someone at the top calling them out for it. Howerver I think this would also lead to a mass chaos of its own since then we will have tons of roleclaims being thrown around without full confirmation unless everyone speaks up.

Sounds like it to me, or a very convincing "fake"

I doubt it. The wording CG used to describe the game seemed to exclude that possibility:

It sounds like mafia didn't know each other until after picks are chosen. They still won't know each others' picks unless they can day talk or CG provided that info when providing the names to each of the mafia.

That what it seems like to me as well, but we should get confirmation on this.

The treestump of mafia doom is an option I hadn't thought of, but it's a good point. Other than that, I think the main avoidable danger by lynching high would be in nabbing the SK. That said, I just don't think we would do well in trying to lynch based on the list rather than lynching based on play.

Is that because you were the SK before, or just because the SK could possibly tip the game in a crucial moment?

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Sorry, didn't actually respond to Ankeli in that post, I say he would go for the treestump because duh, his avatar is a tree stump, obvious is obvious.

 

[Goryani]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

And you are being needlessly coy...

Right back at ya. You're putting words in Gambor's mouth without trying to look like you are putting words in Gambor's mouth. I'm wondering at your reasons for doing so. Townie isn't among the top of the list.

 

[Gambor]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Is that because you were the SK before, or just because the SK could possibly tip the game in a crucial moment?

I don't understand the question. If you mean why do I think what I said there, it's because the SK kills a player every night, significantly shortening the "clock" on the game, whilst simultaneously being rather difficult to find if played well. To be clear in case my wording was confusing, I meant to say that nabbing the SK would be a good thing, avoiding the danger of having extra night kills.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Sorry, yes I guess I misunderstood your statement, however I don't believe eliminating the SK would be necessarily a good thing since they can eliminate both town and mafia players which could tilt the scales in variuos situations.

 

[Gwaihir]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Assuming 25% chance of mafia. Equal chance of a power role. I'll take the 75% odds for day one and see how he turns out. Power roles can be blocked or saved and I'd rather lynch someone for their play instead of their ability to pick first from a role list.

Vote: Bad Ash

I've only played a draft game in which it was made public who picked which roles. Roleclaiming can be useful here, but only on day one and if we start from the bottom of the list. But the fun lies in not knowing and keeping the WIFOA feel to it.

I disagree that day one is the only useful claim. Bottom up claiming is definitely more likely to give us info, but I think there is still info to be gained from a later roleclaim. Also, not sure a first day claim is a good idea - do we really want to give mafia who in the town is what?

I do agree about you comment on Bad Ash and Noodle. I see no reason to lynch based off position when each position is just as likely to be townie as mafia.

Let me toss a question out there for you, at least the ones that know me and my play style better: You're me, you have the 3rd pick, what do you pick?

Well as you have played in games I have seen, treestump or role thief would be my guesses. You like the havoc roles.

Also, do you think a host would allow mafia to choose mason? That would give the mafia a HUGE advantage over the town with having an inside man. But if that's the case, that means masons are no longer real masons and they now have to worry about each and ever one of them. WIFOA.

Goryani's "If you were to design a game with a special win condition, what would it be?":
I would probably go for "If you make a single post with 50 characters (no more, no less) for 5 consecutive days, you achieve your win condition and become a tree stump (invulnerable but unable to vote)".

I really hope you are correct, that would be amazing.

I'm with coju on this one, I considered ninja just because it sounded awesome, although in practical use its terrible mainly because theres a possibility that no one choose the watcher/tracker roles so what good would it really do? I feel the same way about the masons though, is there a possibility that one of them could be mafia? Yes. But what are the real chances of their actually being all three masons? Probably slim to none since there were much more lucrative power roles available and the possibility of two people both picking Mason A.

This - I highly doubt we have 3 masons, and maybe not even 2. If you wanted to be a mason, you had to not only pick a unique role, but another person had to pick it as well. And as there is no confirmation that masons would be not mafia, seems like a very weak role to go for.

Also, did you actually seriously consider ninja, even with the power? To both you and coju, how far up on your list was this choice wise, if you could have had any role?

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

This - I highly doubt we have 3 masons, and maybe not even 2. If you wanted to be a mason, you had to not only pick a unique role, but another person had to pick it as well. And as there is no confirmation that masons would be not mafia, seems like a very weak role to go for.

Also, did you actually seriously consider ninja, even with the power? To both you and coju, how far up on your list was this choice wise, if you could have had any role?

In all seriousness, when it came down to decision time it was considered, but definately not a high priority since I had "almost" first choice. Mainly because of the reason I stated, if there is no watcher/tracker then the power is wasted.

 

[FredOfErik]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Why on earth would you consider that if you are pro-town? The ninja is immune to the watcher/tracker that sees who you visit. If you pick the role ninja as pro-town you have nobody to visit? The ninja could only be of any use to mafia.

 

[Pyrotechnician1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I guess I misunderstood the role of the watcher/trakcer. But from my understanding although I wouldn't be visiting anyone, anyone that visited me wouldn't be able to be identified (such as the doctor protecting me, etc.) if the mafia chose those roles. It would also prevent the mafia from having the power so if they were performing night kills then they could not avoid being tracked or watched by having this power.

 

[Gwaihir]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

why would a townie pick ninja? TO KEEP THE SCUM FROM GETTING IT!

I agree with this completely, but as a townie that would have been my very first response. What I found odd was that neither coju nor pyro mentioned this reason over a total of what, 6 posts?

reasons of why/why not listed for coju:
why not?
WIFOM

reasons of why/why not listed for pyro:
sounds awesome
May not be a watcher or tracker in the game.
becuase I had first choice, not high priority

So if they were town, they had some really bad reasons for picking or not picking it. If they are scum, they might have not thought about the one you just pointed out.

which leads me to your response - why on earth would you give them that answer when neither had so much as mentioned it before? You on a team with one of them? Trying to tip them off to the answer that will let them off the hook?

Oh and look at that! Very next post Pyro now claims that was his initial reason. Maybe it was, or maybe you just listened to what your partner just recommended.

Vote: Pyrotechnician

 

[Gwaihir]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I guess I misunderstood the role of the watcher/trakcer. But from my understanding although I wouldn't be visiting anyone, anyone that visited me wouldn't be able to be identified (such as the doctor protecting me, etc.) if the mafia chose those roles. It would also prevent the mafia from having the power so if they were performing night kills then they could not avoid being tracked or watched by having this power.

Here are the results I see for a townie ninja
townie watcher: can't tell who killed you
mafia watcher: can't tell who saves you
townie tracker: nothing, you have no targeting powers
mafia tracker: nothing, you have no targeting powers

I understand preventing scum from having the role, but as an actually useful role for impeding mafia - not so much. I would think you would be just as likely to impede a townie watching to see who kills you. And actually given likely numbers of town vs mafia, it is more likely to have a townie watcher than a mafia one.

 

[Sathoris]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Fair enough.. I was tempted to pick the Ninja just to piss people off.

Unvote: Bad Ash
Vote: Pyrotechnician

Bandwagon people?

 

[Kestegs]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Wow, really going to start a bandwagon over that? Noodle wasn't a popular choice, so let's all go for the #2 role picker since he has a good chance of being a power roll!


Vote: Sathoris

I find your logic disturbing

 

[Ankeli1]

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Oh I agree, I don't really see a strong enough reason to go for PT there...

Vote: Sathoris