City Mafia Game Thread

Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Also, what is this about?

Naa, I enjoy reveals! I will agree with you on pyros non voting, and to whoever noticed the top 7 did Not vote for asrrin. both are good informations. After putting those two thoughts together, and what looked like pyros flailing of the arms, "yeah yeah that! " post 'defense' (a few posts up)

Vote: Pyrotechnician

Flailing of arms, yeah yeah yeah that? It wasn't really a defense as it was more a stating the facts as I knew them and explained that I would defend myself when I was actually awake, we don't all live in the same time zone you know.


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

@Pyro - cross examination time.

Go back to your thoughts before picking your role:
Were you worried that choosing Hider would make you look scummy at role claim time?
Did you consider what would happen if a townie investigator tried to target you? If so, what did you conclude?
Why were you so afraid of being killed N1?
Did you consider other roles which would let you be essentially bulletproof (bus driver, treestump)? If yes, what made you shy away from those roles?
Did you consider roles which would punish mafia for night killing you (bomb, party host, possibly restless spirit)?
What link(s) did you use to look up the hider/commuter?

Imagine you had a low pick and therefore did not choose Hider:
How useful is the hider for mafia trying to avoid detection/investigation or to ensure night kills go through? Is there a better role in the list for those purposes?
If you saw someone else claim Hider, how would you go about determining the alignment of that player this game?

Other questions:
As per rule #11, are you willing to post the role-thief role pm?
Did your town change as a result of the role swap?
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I'm actually gonna go with my gut over peer pressure.

Vote: flubbucket

I don't like the Pyro lynch, as the only reason I can justify for it is to get rid of the role he has. If he has to be lynched, it'd be better to do it tomorrow. We can get some good out of the nasty role he has if he uses it overnight and tells us who he used it on tomorrow.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I have been suspicious of Pyro for a long time over several things he said, and this choice just adds to it. I can see the reasoning for a defensive choice as second pick, but at this point I find him the most suspicious. It seems we were already closing in on a lynch, so I will hold off voting until closer to the end of the day, but he is my top choice.


Other thing about yesterday that bothered me:

Vote: Valhauros

Vote: Flubbucket.

These two both happened after there were at least 6 votes on Asrrin. Flubb later did change his vote to Asrrin, but only after he got called on his vote and then made a comment about being forced into the vote.

For both of you - why did you not vote Asrrrin at that point? Flubb why did you vote for someone with 1 vote, and why did you change to Asrrin? Val, why did you vote for someone who had no votes at all that close to the end of the day?

Also noticed Val hopped on the train today to vote Pyro, and then hopped back off as soon as people mentioned that maybe we should slow down on lynching him - do you actually think L-2 was that much of a dangerous spot? What were you worried about happening?


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Alright, I'll handle these one by one, I'm going to exclude quotes and just copy paste as it seems easier if thats ok:

Were you worried that choosing Hider would make you look scummy at role claim time?
What link(s) did you use to look up the hider/commuter?

No, I was not concerned with this as during role selection I sent CG a pm asking details about the role and he clarified that the role was actually a commuter (although known as hider) which is pro-town according to this site which I used for all of my role considerations:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commuter

Did you consider what would happen if a townie investigator tried to target you? If so, what did you conclude?

I'm assuming you mean the role-cop as the cop would only determine my alignment (which would be very helpful at a time like this). I considered this and if a townie role-cop had investigated me and then shared the results, as had happened here I would have confirmed his investigation and explained my reasoning. I figured as long as I explained by situation and didn't try to shrug it off/deny it/or call them an outright liar that it would be accepted as a role that was in fact useful to the town. I also figured a role-cop, if protown would be a bit more descrete with his findings rather than go HEY LOOK, HES THE HIDER, essentially outing himself in the process.

Why were you so afraid of being killed N1?

Being a new player, I wanted to try and last past the first day/night cycle to gain more experience in play while still securing a role that I thought to be useful to the town (and myself for that matter, who doesn't want nk immunity, no one can argue against having something like that). If you refer back to my previous post I go into further datail for chosing the role relating to my bid positoin and the likelyhood of being lynched on night one due to the belief of holding a power role.

Did you consider other roles which would let you be essentially bulletproof (bus driver, treestump)? If yes, what made you shy away from those roles?

I didn't choose busdriver as I would essentially be switching myself with another player, I didn't see it as right to in effect possibly switch myself with another possible townie just to save myself. Why sacrifice someone else when you can stop the kill completely. The treestump isn't really a "role" in my mind. Yes, you are immune, but only after you claim, and you have no voting power afterwards? I wanted to be able to participate and make voting decisions. If my vote power was going to be removed I didn't see myself enjoying the game as much from that point on.

Did you consider roles which would punish mafia for night killing you (bomb, party host, possibly restless spirit)?

The only one I saw as viable was the bomb. The party host, although neat doesn't really serve as much protection, and even if the people that visited you were displayed, if more than one person visited you that night then the actual killer would be a toss up most likely causing the lynch of a townie, as well as a mafia. Restless spirit sounded interesting, but I didn't think you were told exactly who killed you, so you would end up getting another day of guessing on who to vote for, overall it just didn't really sound all that helpful unless the vote would somehow turn the tide the next day. The bomb was definately a considered option as I would at least get payback on the killer, but I really wanted to participate in the game rather than just taking the death straight out of the gate.

How useful is the hider for mafia trying to avoid detection/investigation or to ensure night kills go through? Is there a better role in the list for those purposes?

To avoid detection/investigation? I'm not sure how the investigation information comes back, but I guess if it said investigation failed or something like that it would not be very helpful as the investigator/detector would know something is up, but if it comes back with a vanilla read, or a townie read then I would say it would be quite helpful as it would essentially clear them of suspician in a normal game. As far as night kills, I'm not sure how they function, I know that hiders can't perform night actions on the nights they are "away" so unless they had the kill power specifically I would assume the night kills would go through as normal because another mafiso would perform it? There are other roles on the list to avoid detection such as roleblocker and godfather, but they definately don't provide nightkill immunity (although of course mafia don't really have to be concerned about this except the SK).

If you saw someone else claim Hider, how would you go about determining the alignment of that player this game?

Me personally, knowing that they are hider wouldn't help me much as from the role descriptions, its normally a pro-town position, but of course this being a WIFOA game this means absolutely nothing. I guess I'm not sure why this seems like a really scummy role choice? How can picking a normally pro-town role and trying to play safe say scum all over it, and why is everyone following BA on this without much contest? I understand since he was correct on Asriin that he has much more credit at the moment then I do, but it shouldn't make this a follow the leader situation unless everyone else knows something that I don't.

As per rule #11, are you willing to post the role-thief role pm?

I am very willing to post the PM if necessary for confirmation, but I thought that meant only your "original" role pm. If CG can confirm that I can post the pm here and the rest of you feel its necessary then I will do so, similar to how I said I would post my original role PM if locked today as I would want the town to be able to continue discussion on other topics for the rest of the day phase.

Did your town change as a result of the role swap?

There was no mention of my city changing in the message stating my role as been stolen, so I'm assuming that it is still the same. Also, since stealing a role wouldn't change your alignment I would think it shouldn't have an effect anyway? I thought there may be some connection between cities and alignment but obviously that would be impossible to determine.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I'm actually gonna go with my gut over peer pressure.

Vote: flubbucket

I don't like the Pyro lynch, as the only reason I can justify for it is to get rid of the role he has. If he has to be lynched, it'd be better to do it tomorrow. We can get some good out of the nasty role he has if he uses it overnight and tells us who he used it on tomorrow.

If I do survive, then I will be sure to give full details on its use, but of course I will need to determine who it should be used on and a good reason why unless it should just be done at random? I guessing there are probably some people that would be good choices for such an ability.

I have been suspicious of Pyro for a long time over several things he said, and this choice just adds to it. I can see the reasoning for a defensive choice as second pick, but at this point I find him the most suspicious. It seems we were already closing in on a lynch, so I will hold off voting until closer to the end of the day, but he is my top choice.

I've had to play pretty defensively this enitre time due to constant pushing each day and it seems to distract people from actually finding scum and I'm getting the heat for it. If people are going to bandwagon and lock a lynch before I can even make a post for myself then I find that scummier then anything I can say. If I answer the questions they present then people continually find fault with my reasoning even though I have valid points. If I were to choose to dodge the questions then I would find that more scummy then actually answering them wheter you agree with my reason or not which is why I choose to explain myself.


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

If lynching me will give the town the information it needs then so be it, but Bad Ash is not going to have a good day tomorrow then if that is the case.

Why would I not have a good day tomorrow? You are the role theif. We are debaitng if someone who is pro-town or anti-town would select the role of hider with the second overall pick.

I dont like how you are trying to say "its a pro town role". I realize you later went on to say that this means absolutely nothing, but one of the reasons you chose it is because it is a pro town role? I dont buy it.

I don't think, that someone who is pro town, would select hider with the second overall pick. It is possible sure, but I think the odds are higher that the person who chose that role is anti-town. It is so much more beneficial to an anti town than it is to a pro town, and thats why I am going to keep my vote on you for now.

I also wouldn't mind getting rid of the role theif. Pretty easily can fall into the hands of anti-town and the longer the game goes on, the more roles they will know and can alter the outcome of the game. As an example, they now know where they hider is and exactly how they can go about getting it. A powerful role in the hands of the mafia.

Also @gory I am not sure if the original role theif was or is pro-town and know not nearly enough about said player. Could be that I am even wrong in my assumption of who it is or was, and it was a good point to bring up.



One other thought: The vigilante has the ability to kill DURING THE DAY as well as at night. Should we ask that person to come forward and use it? We could possibly take pyro out, and then focus on flub or vice versa. Might be dangerous if our reads are wrong on these people, but something I thought about and wanted to share (if anyone even is the vigi).

TLDR: My vote stands on Pyro because I dont believe someone in his position would choose that role and be pro-town. I make up a lot of stats and will make one up now. would say 80/20 anti/pro town in terms of the hider in the second position



 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Why would I not have a good day tomorrow? You are the role theif. We are debaitng if someone who is pro-town or anti-town would select the role of hider with the second overall pick.

I only stated this because the person before me said they would use the lynch information to try and determine your alignment, and when (or if) I flip at the end of day it won't be sucessful at removing another mafia from play, unless they are only going to use the information to confirm that I am in fact now the role-thief which doesn't make sense at this point as it seems pretty certain to me.

I dont like how you are trying to say "its a pro town role". I realize you later went on to say that this means absolutely nothing, but one of the reasons you chose it is because it is a pro town role? I dont buy it.

I don't think, that someone who is pro town, would select hider with the second overall pick. It is possible sure, but I think the odds are higher that the person who chose that role is anti-town. It is so much more beneficial to an anti town than it is to a pro town, and thats why I am going to keep my vote on you for now.

I also wouldn't mind getting rid of the role theif. Pretty easily can fall into the hands of anti-town and the longer the game goes on, the more roles they will know and can alter the outcome of the game. As an example, they now know where they hider is and exactly how they can go about getting it. A powerful role in the hands of the mafia.

TLDR: My vote stands on Pyro because I dont believe someone in his position would choose that role and be pro-town. I make up a lot of stats and will make one up now. would say 80/20 anti/pro town in terms of the hider in the second position

I stated that its a protown role because when looking at my role selections, I tried to consider a situation like this where I may be questioned based on my role, but once again as I stated what role you are means nothing in a game like this for your alignment so I'm not sure why your putting such a heavy weighting on this for your decision. I mean if I was the godfather then yeah, I'm probably anti-town as that ability in no way helps the town (or myself) except for keeping the mafia from getting it but the hider has its benefits as a safe role choice. I understand roles may benefit one side or the other more for various reasons, but that doesn't mean it isn't a benefit at all. Each and every role in that list is helpful or hurtful in some way to all sides, the degress to which they are vary but it doesn't mean that I'm definately scum based on my selection. If getting rid of the role thief is that important to you and the town then fine, but I really don't think its worth wasting your lynch on since we should be able to track it from here on out if we play smart enough.


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

@Pyro - Never assume the alignment listed on mafiascum's wiki represents the typical game. The last two games here have featured a mafia commuter/hider or variant. In the game before that (hosted by CG), mafia faked a hider claim. I'm not sure if these forums have ever seen a pro-town hider/commuter.

Were you worried that choosing Hider would make you look scummy at role claim time?
What link(s) did you use to look up the hider/commuter?

No, I was not concerned with this as during role selection I sent CG a pm asking details about the role and he clarified that the role was actually a commuter (although known as hider) which is pro-town according to this site which I used for all of my role considerations:
http://wiki.mafiascum.net/index.php?title=Commuter

Confirm/deny: You didn't look at the hider role before you chose hider.


Did you consider what would happen if a townie investigator tried to target you? If so, what did you conclude?

I'm assuming you mean the role-cop as the cop would only determine my alignment (which would be very helpful at a time like this). I considered this and if a townie role-cop had investigated me and then shared the results, as had happened here I would have confirmed his investigation and explained my reasoning. I figured as long as I explained by situation and didn't try to shrug it off/deny it/or call them an outright liar that it would be accepted as a role that was in fact useful to the town.
I mean many roles, not just the role-cop. Depending on the messages CG gives out, several roles might not get the results they were expecting. Cop and role-cop shouldn't receive results from investigating you. Watcher/tracker may or may not receive messages on "no result" targets (tracker of CG's WoT game received "no result" results, not sure on watcher since it was killed before claiming) so they might not receive any results either. Roleblocker/jailkeeper are similar. Lack of an expected result will throw up red flags. A red flag combined with you not voting for the first mafia to be lynched would be enough for me to claim and reveal all.

I also figured a role-cop, if protown would be a bit more descrete with his findings rather than go HEY LOOK, HES THE HIDER, essentially outing himself in the process.
Investigative roles, if their results finds someone they think is anti-town, should claim immediately. If a cop finds a guilty verdict, they claim. If a role-cop finds a SK, they claim. If a watcher watches the person who died that night, they claim. If a tracker tracks someone who targets a freshly deceased, they claim.

I know that hiders can't perform night actions on the nights they are "away"
How do you know this?

As per rule #11, are you willing to post the role-thief role pm?

I am very willing to post the PM if necessary for confirmation, but I thought that meant only your "original" role pm. If CG can confirm that I can post the pm here and the rest of you feel its necessary then I will do so, similar to how I said I would post my original role PM if locked today as I would want the town to be able to continue discussion on other topics for the rest of the day phase.

Someone needs to post the role-thief PM. BA mentioned 50% and we need to know more about it.



 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Confirm/deny: You didn't look at the hider role before you chose hider.

I did look at the hider role, after that I sent a pm to CG to ask if I actually had to "hide" behind someone for the immunity to NK effect to occur since it didn't look like it in his original description and he confirmed it was actually the commuter from that site.

I mean many roles, not just the role-cop. Depending on the messages CG gives out, several roles might not get the results they were expecting. Cop and role-cop shouldn't receive results from investigating you. Watcher/tracker may or may not receive messages on "no result" targets (tracker of CG's WoT game received "no result" results, not sure on watcher since it was killed before claiming) so they might not receive any results either. Roleblocker/jailkeeper are similar. Lack of an expected result will throw up red flags. A red flag combined with you not voting for the first mafia to be lynched would be enough for me to claim and reveal all.

In any of these cases I would assume they would only get no results on the nights I was "hiding", so if they were to investigate me on the off night they would receive the correct information. I'm not sure how the watcher or tracker really play into this because if someone watcher/tracker used their ability on a night I was hiding there would be no results to see anyway as no one would be able to perform an action on me and I would not be performing any actions so these roles are essentially a mute point.

Investigative roles, if their results finds someone they think is anti-town, should claim immediately. If a cop finds a guilty verdict, they claim. If a role-cop finds a SK, they claim. If a watcher watches the person who died that night, they claim. If a tracker tracks someone who targets a freshly deceased, they claim.

Wouldn't this normally end up in a dead investigator the next night? I would think they would try to persuade the town to vote with them before role-revealing in order to attempt to be able to continue investigating in further nights.

How do you know this?

I don't know this except from whats listed on that website so if this is incorrect then someone should let me know. If that is the case I'm sorry for the misinformation in that post.

Someone needs to post the role-thief PM. BA mentioned 50% and we need to know more about it.

Well, I will send a pm to CG to confirm that I am able to post the pm and if so I will do so. You can send him a pm as well if you feel it is necessary to confirm my ability to before doing so.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

I did send a pm to CG and he stated that I could not quote the information from the role steal pm as it is against the rules and would end up in a mod kill. It seems the only way for the actual pm to be posted here would be for the original role thief to do so.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Also, what is this about?



Flailing of arms, yeah yeah yeah that? It wasn't really a defense as it was more a stating the facts as I knew them and explained that I would defend myself when I was actually awake, we don't all live in the same time zone you know.

Just posting my thoughts. It was because we had the (basically, to stay alive) same thought process on the matter.

(I live an hour behind you...)


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Investigative roles, if their results finds someone they think is anti-town, should claim immediately. If a cop finds a guilty verdict, they claim. If a role-cop finds a SK, they claim. If a watcher watches the person who died that night, they claim. If a tracker tracks someone who targets a freshly deceased, they claim.

Wouldn't this normally end up in a dead investigator the next night? I would think they would try to persuade the town to vote with them before role-revealing in order to attempt to be able to continue investigating in further nights.

Subtlety via persuasion is difficult. Push too hand and you might have to claim to safe your own hide. Push too soft and no one picks up on it. Also, persuasion often backfires. A number of players have been known to have radar that detects this and kills the townie before they can claim. In a game with a bus driver, the subtle persuasion method can get an innocent lynched, then the townie investigator lynched the next day.

Claiming also helps additional power roles. Docs and watchers are more likely to correctly guess mafia NKs. Cops have one fewer person to try to investigate to find mafia.

But the most important reason: information given to the town can't die.
I don't know this except from whats listed on that website so if this is incorrect then someone should let me know. If that is the case I'm sorry for the misinformation in that post.

You've seen the hider role and we haven't. Based on the descriptions of post #1, I'd guess a mafia hider can send in a NK while hiding. That's a pretty scary scenario to me so I'm gonna ask about it. Does the hider role specify any interaction with mafia NK?

I did send a pm to CG and he stated that I could not quote the information from the role steal pm as it is against the rules and would end up in a mod kill. It seems the only way for the actual pm to be posted here would be for the original role thief to do so.

If you can't quote the role PM, then paraphrase for us.



 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Pyro's sealed this deal. I didn't role cop you. I stole your role. Theres a difference and it seems you keep forgetting that.

The biggest red flag is the "I cant perform actions on an away night". You try to cover this up by saying it was what you read online. Yikes. The only night action you could have that isn't a part of your role is, well, a night kill.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Just posting my thoughts. It was because we had the (basically, to stay alive) same thought process on the matter.

(I live an hour behind you...)

I know your only one hour difference, but the game itself is a three hour difference so being tired at midnight on Sunday was not unreasonable. I just wanted my chance to explain myself before being locked without defense.

Subtlety via persuasion is difficult. Push too hand and you might have to claim to safe your own hide. Push too soft and no one picks up on it. Also, persuasion often backfires. A number of players have been known to have radar that detects this and kills the townie before they can claim. In a game with a bus driver, the subtle persuasion method can get an innocent lynched, then the townie investigator lynched the next day.

Claiming also helps additional power roles. Docs and watchers are more likely to correctly guess mafia NKs. Cops have one fewer person to try to investigate to find mafia.

But the most important reason: information given to the town can't die.

You've seen the hider role and we haven't. Based on the descriptions of post #1, I'd guess a mafia hider can send in a NK while hiding. That's a pretty scary scenario to me so I'm gonna ask about it. Does the hider role specify any interaction with mafia NK?

If you can't quote the role PM, then paraphrase for us.

The reasoning you explained makes sense and I will be sure to follow that in future games if I have those roles.

I'm not sure how the hider role functions under the use of the mafia, since CG explained the role functions like the commuter I used that as my basis for the role (I didn't actually send anything in to be immune on the specified nights, it just happened automatically), please do send a pm regarding that because in all actuality I'm not really sure. The hider role in my role pm just stated that I would be immune to all night actions every other night.

The role steal pm essentially said that I no longer had my original role, and that I could chose a person the next night phase and would take that role, they would then be the role thief.


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Pyro's sealed this deal. I didn't role cop you. I stole your role. Theres a difference and it seems you keep forgetting that.

The biggest red flag is the "I cant perform actions on an away night". You try to cover this up by saying it was what you read online. Yikes. The only night action you could have that isn't a part of your role is, well, a night kill.

Do you actually even read any of my posts or is it a TL;DR situation all the time? I mean seriously, at this point I'm not even concerned with trying to convince you since you seem to be pretty sure your right. I know that this method worked with Asriin, but it doesn't mean everyone you target is going to end up scum. Goryani is presenting me with questions, and I'm answering them. I refered to the website that I used for my basis for my knowledge of the roles outside of the game, he had an additional question so I answered that as well. If you actually went to the link you would see it says right there that they cannot do it, and since I had no night actions it didn't really concern me to ask further to see if that limitation applied here, and even if it did, it wouldn't matter. You have to understand here, that I had to get a basis for my knowledge of the roles from somewhere, and then I asked CG for extra specifics on roles I was interested in having. I even stated near the very beginning of the game that I used that site for my basis and no one seemed to contest it at the time.


 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

No I read it and acknowledged what you just repeated in it as well. Too convienent. If you are town, than this is a big distraction for the town. Who should we go after instead of you and why?
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

The only thing I actually agree with you is that yes, it is in fact a big distraction for the town, and I seem to be the subject for a lot of them, so maybe it is best that I be removed from the game so that I can no longer be a distraction. Remind me next time to ask for a full readout of every role available from the mod so I don't run into this again, and I'm sorry that there is a website available with a full listing of roles and abilities. Listing out who I would target won't really do me much good as this specific topic has been the subject for most of the day phase, as apparently I don't have any credibility.
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Its always an option, you can edit your posts, but I would not choose to do so.

It is only a game, playing for the first time, its very easy to take things personally.

No one is being as hard on you as you are taking it and I hope you can realize that. When I say it is a distraction I was not saying you were, I was saying if you are town this whole shebang is. That includes a lot of people other than just you, so, if you are town, try to find someone you think should be lynched with a why.

You are doing what you have to do, but, again, its a game and a very important aspect of the game is getting people to believe what you are saying even if its a lie, ya never know what these people are capable of (myself included). Theres been some oscar worthy posts throughout the years.

Lastly: Don't take offense...its hard to read tones on forums, and again, its never as personal as it seems (most of the time)
 
Re: City Mafia Game Thread

Unvote: Pyrotechnician

Believe he fully explained himself. It's easy to feel trapped when getting double teamed by a couple of vets. I know I felt trapped when trying to explain myself when I've got into situations like this. And it always seems like a steep road to climb when a couple people are convinced you're scum and are adamant about it...

Imo I think BA tossed vanilla scum asrrin under the bus to gain massive town points. I know I did in the NCIS game, even locked a scum partner, but I made it to the end (godfather iirc), still lost the game though. Just want y'all to think about that as well.

Although, I cannot really think of anything else scummy about BA except for maybe hounding pyro for 2 days, but there are a couple others who did also (gory is the only one I can remember, and if I remember right, that was mainly just questions. Pretty intense questions, but questions nonetheless)
 
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