WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

i have 2 runic talons(fury and chaos), dusk shroud body armor, light boots and belt. I should had reach the correct frames either for traps and WW. right?
 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

It's easy to hit ww since runic's do that without the ias of chaos/fury. Traps is a bit more, though at 10 frames I don't mind it.
 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

so that would be -70 and -65 averaged at -67.5 wsm without bugging i take it when you consider ias on both claws.

....?
RTs = -30wsm
2x RTs = -30awsm

Only IAS from the primary claw will be counted for trap laying speed.


 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

i just checked up on the ias tables, so with my runic fury i'm 1% away from 9fpa, and I don't really feel like socketing an ias jewel since the one spot i can i use a shael for the fhr.

I could have sworn wsm bugging worked but after testing I didn't see a difference afterall.
 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

i just checked up on the ias tables, so with my runic fury i'm 1% away from 9fpa, and I don't really feel like socketing an ias jewel since the one spot i can i use a shael for the fhr.

I could have sworn wsm bugging worked but after testing I didn't see a difference afterall.

please take some time to understand the mechanics before posting advice. it'll save us all some time. :thumbsup:



 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

please take some time to understand the mechanics before posting advice. it'll save us all some time. :thumbsup:

My last comment wasn't so much posting advice, I said I hit 10fpa (or at least thought I did at the time) thinking that was good enough for me.

Was dueling between looking at the ias tables, so I'm still establishing exact claw speed. I had been under the impression that wsm bugging did affect trap laying speed, and with a dueling partner I believe we saw a noticable difference in him going from suwwayah suwwayah to bugging with greater talon and suwwayah in his trap laying speed.

However, when attempting variations with faster claws, I was unable to duplicate.

WSM Bugging

WSM bugging is a little trick used to lower the AWSM of your two claws, lowering the IAS requirements for trap + non-WW animations. It works by placing your secondary claw in your inventory first. That means that after you switch to your weapons, lift and replace your glove-side claw, and it’ll bug your WSM.


So what I was doing wrong was the averaging the clawspeeds - but just to be clear, the IAS on the claw does or does not affect its wsm, since AoAA's original statement was that IAS on secondary claw doesn't count?

The ias on the claw would affect its base speed, effectively turning -30 to -65 (chaos runic/gt) as I'm seeing according to Ias Tables. Since a level 5 bos is all that's needed to see 9fpa, when testing between my claws and fade vs no claws and bos there's only the slightest speed difference.

Looking at this, please show me where I'm wrong in my understanding -

If only going off primary claw (no awsm)

40% IAS on Fury = +30 EIAS
-30 WSM of Fury = +30 EIAS
60% EIAS leaves me needing 1 to hit 9fpa does it not, being the bp is 61. 1% EIAS is different than IAS, I do see where that was wrong to say IAS vs EIAS. However the only IAS Jewels I'm aware of are 15% and calculating that 15% in the mix puts us over the 9fpa breakpoint.

In the case of two claws being -30, the awsm is -30 as we don't calculate the ias on either claw for awsm - that I was unclear about as I had interpreted the modified wsm as applying always, not just to ww.


 
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Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

BP's are based on EIAS, which are calculated using WSM and IAS with a non-linear formula. guides and calculators all simplify the issue by listing IAS requirements per WSM for a given BP. the 1% EIAS that you need is equivalent to the 2% IAS needed to reach 42% IAS with a GT/RT fury claw.

WSM bugging would of course not be doing anything for you because you are using two claws with the same WSM.
 
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Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

i have 2 runic talons(fury and chaos), dusk shroud body armor, light boots and belt. I should had reach the correct frames either for traps and WW. right?

Since someone will be more than happy to come down on me if I'm wrong, I can say this with certainty.

(from JRichard's IAS Tables)
WhirlWind Frame Breaks
Code:
Frames | Modified WSM*

12 | 33 and higher
------------------------
10 | 32 to 25
------------------------
8 | 24 to 10
------------------------
6 | 9 to -12
------------------------
4 | -13 and lower
*What is modified WSM? It's basically the WSM of your claw(eg. you would use 0 here if you used a Scissors Suwayyah), minus the amount of IAS you have on your weapon. In short, Modified WSM = WSM of claw - Weapon IAS.

Here are a few examples:
1) Scissors Suwayyah with 15% IAS from a jewel. Modified WSM = 0 - 15 = -15. So, this claw would reach the speed cap of 4 frames with WW.

2) War Fist with 10% IAS. Modified WSM = 10 – 10 = 0. So, this claw would only reach 6 frames with WW.

3) Runic Talon(no IAS). Modified WSM = -30 - 0 = -30. So, this claw would reach the speed cap of 4 frames with WW with plenty to spare.


Also note, IAS outside your weapon does not work with WW.

since both weapons have a base speed of -30, you automatically hit the ww breakpoint with plenty of room to spare.

------------

EIAS --> IAS conversion formula:
EIAS = (120*IAS)/(120+IAS)

IAS --> EIAS conversion formula:
IAS = (120*EIAS)/(120-EIAS)

Note: Speed bonuses from BoS already count as EIAS, whereas IAS on equipment needs to be converted to EIAS using the second formula in order to be used on the below tables.

Also, you need to figure in the WSM of your weapon into these tables. For example, if you have a WSM of 20, that denotes an EIAS penalty of 20 EIAS(in effect, minus off 20 from the EIAS you have from other sources). If you have a WSM of -10, that denotes an EIAS bonus of 10 EIAS(in effect, add 10 to the EIAS you have from other sources).


Trap-laying EIAS Table:
Code:
EIAS Fpa EIAS Fpa
-30 23 0 15
-29 22 8 14
-26 21 15 13
-23 20 24 12
-19 19 34 11
-15 18 47 10
-10 17 61 9
-5 16

As for the 9frame trap break point, you would still require another source of Ias to put you over breakpoint. By my calculations, you would hit 60EIAS whereas 61 is required for the 9f trap lay.

60= (120*40)/(120+40)

Assuming this is correct, that would put you at the 10 frame breakpoint. As both the 9 and 10 frame breakpoints allow for 2 traps per second, shooting for the extra ias isn't going to make an extreme difference.

Currently, I'm using a Feral Chaos and Runic Fury. I typically don't bug the awsm for the sake of convenience since I hit the 10frame break point, and don't want to be caught off guard on an accidental weapon switch resetting bug awsm


 
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Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

Since someone will be more than happy to come down on me if I'm wrong, I can say this with certainty.

(from JRichard's IAS Tables)
WhirlWind Frame Breaks
Code:
Frames | Modified WSM*

12 | 33 and higher
------------------------
10 | 32 to 25
------------------------
8 | 24 to 10
------------------------
6 | 9 to -12
------------------------
4 | -13 and lower
*What is modified WSM? It's basically the WSM of your claw(eg. you would use 0 here if you used a Scissors Suwayyah), minus the amount of IAS you have on your weapon. In short, Modified WSM = WSM of claw - Weapon IAS.

Here are a few examples:
1) Scissors Suwayyah with 15% IAS from a jewel. Modified WSM = 0 - 15 = -15. So, this claw would reach the speed cap of 4 frames with WW.

2) War Fist with 10% IAS. Modified WSM = 10 – 10 = 0. So, this claw would only reach 6 frames with WW.

3) Runic Talon(no IAS). Modified WSM = -30 - 0 = -30. So, this claw would reach the speed cap of 4 frames with WW with plenty to spare.


Also note, IAS outside your weapon does not work with WW.

since both weapons have a base speed of -30, you automatically hit the ww breakpoint with plenty of room to spare.

------------

EIAS --> IAS conversion formula:
EIAS = (120*IAS)/(120+IAS)

IAS --> EIAS conversion formula:
IAS = (120*EIAS)/(120-EIAS)

Note: Speed bonuses from BoS already count as EIAS, whereas IAS on equipment needs to be converted to EIAS using the second formula in order to be used on the below tables.

Also, you need to figure in the WSM of your weapon into these tables. For example, if you have a WSM of 20, that denotes an EIAS penalty of 20 EIAS(in effect, minus off 20 from the EIAS you have from other sources). If you have a WSM of -10, that denotes an EIAS bonus of 10 EIAS(in effect, add 10 to the EIAS you have from other sources).


Trap-laying EIAS Table:
Code:
EIAS Fpa EIAS Fpa
-30 23 0 15
-29 22 8 14
-26 21 15 13
-23 20 24 12
-19 19 34 11
-15 18 47 10
-10 17 61 9
-5 16

As for the 9frame trap break point, you would still require another source of Ias to put you over breakpoint. By my calculations, you would hit 60EIAS whereas 61 is required for the 9f trap lay.

60= (120*40)/(120+40)

Assuming this is correct, that would put you at the 10 frame breakpoint. As both the 9 and 10 frame breakpoints allow for 2 traps per second, shooting for the extra ias isn't going to make an extreme difference.

Currently, I'm using a Feral Chaos and Runic Suwwayah. I typically don't bug the awsm for the sake of convenience since I hit the 10frame break point, and don't want to be caught off guard on an accidental weapon switch resetting bug awsm
the math/terminology is right now, but your decision not to go for 9 frame traps is based on a flawed premise. the only reason why the 9 and 10 FPA animations result in 2 traps per second is because you are cutting off the decimals that show the difference. if you introduce rounding, you could just as easily make the claim that using a shael in your hat instead of a IAS jewel won't save you any life because you stay at 4k life.

regardless, arguments over BPs should not be done using "per second" comparisons. the difference between escape and absolute stun can very often be a difference of just 1 FPA (i.e. 10 FPA vs 9 FPA fireblast). it's a minute change when analyzed with casts per second metrics, but it makes a world of difference in the way the characters react.



 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

BP's are based on EIAS, which are calculated using WSM and IAS with a non-linear formula. guides and calculators all simplify the issue by listing IAS requirements per WSM for a given BP. the 1% EIAS that you need is equivalent to the 2% IAS needed to reach 42% IAS with a GT/RT fury claw.

WSM bugging would of course not be doing anything for you because you are using two claws with the same WSM.

Oh ok, so I did get it all right this time I believe. Really, I think the other poster was in the same boat when choosing his claws. Originally I wanted both base -30 claws to simplify the math involved. While brief testing with BoS let me know I wasn't hitting the final breakpoint, the difference was so minor I didn't want to adjust the equipment for the sake of a single frame.

I think the lack of an example of 2 ias claws would have helped to make things abundantly more clearer, as I was under the impression that the modified wsm applied even in awsm calculations because of how it leads the EIAS calculations. The beginning notes that the IAS on second claw will only apply to whirlwind and normal attack, but it doesn't explicitly state that in calculating weapon speed, you only use the base speed and not the modified weapon speed when averaging the wsm. I believe that is where a lot of us have been getting mixed up initially when running our numbers. When I think average of each weapon speed, I'm thinking the final speed of both claws would be most logical as opposed to just the base speeds.


 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

the math/terminology is right now, but your decision not to go for 9 frame traps is based on a flawed premise. the only reason why the 9 and 10 FPA animations result in 2 traps per second is because you are cutting off the decimals that show the difference. if you introduce rounding, you could just as easily make the claim that using a shael in your hat instead of a IAS jewel won't save you any life because you stay at 4k life.

regardless, arguments over BPs should not be done using "per second" comparisons. the difference between escape and absolute stun can very often be a difference of just 1 FPA (i.e. 10 FPA vs 9 FPA fireblast). it's a minute change when analyzed with casts per second metrics, but it makes a world of difference in the way the characters react.

The longer I play a ghost, the more important those single frames seem to be =) As for my reasoning for staying at 10 vs the 9, I still haven't perfected my namelock as high fcr teleporting characters know to evade me and minimize the chance of me getting a namelock when they appear on my screen. As I don't have the reflexes I used to when I played counterstrike, I need slightly more time to lock in my target and react a tad slower than what I can. If a single frame decides whether i catch my target or not, I personally will typically not be fast enough. I stopped playing CS and got into mmo's for a while, and the auto-targeting or locking targets really killed my reflexes.

As for 42ias vs 61EIAS, I was under the impression that equipment IAS and weapon IAS calculated differently. Hitting 42ias sounds much simpler when you know the 40ias on your claw counts toward it, which oddly enough never gets mentioned yet the standard claw for a ghost is fury.

As far as using a shael in my griffon's, getting fhr can be difficult when you don't have prime charms to choose from. My justification there is that since shadow/fhr charms aren't readily available at my disposal, I need to make the most of what's available in my inventory. In order to hit res cap (not counting anya res) with fade, I had to use additional res gcs, a 15, a 14, a 4sc and a 3 sc along with torch and anni. As I'm trying to fit as many life scs as possible, every 5fhr means a random mod for me which may or may not be useful (if it has one at all). In my current setup, I hit the 48 breakpoint with 20% from shael in circlet, 20% off treks, and 10% from two 5%fhr charms.


 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

i have 2 runic talons(fury and chaos), dusk shroud body armor, light boots and belt. I should had reach the correct frames either for traps and WW. right?
Just as I thought. With 2x Runics, it requires 42% IAS to hit the 9 frame trap speed. With your gear, you hit the 10 frame break point. For WW, you have to hit a (strange) bp of -13. Runics have a base of -30 (they hit the BP). Ias subtracts from that base speed, so that was where the random -70 and -65 came from. That doesn't have anything to do with traps however and is solely WW, which is only weapon speeds.

i just checked up on the ias tables, so with my runic fury i'm 1% away from 9fpa, and I don't really feel like socketing an ias jewel since the one spot i can i use a shael for the fhr.

I could have sworn wsm bugging worked but after testing I didn't see a difference afterall.
To be honest, I'd really really like to see what gear gives you either 1 or 6% IAS(depending on chaos or fury primary, most likely fury). The most common situation I'd think is having a Fury cover 40% and then end up 2% required, which is covered elsewhere (jewel usually).

WSM Bugging does indeed work, but you have to use the correct claws. 2x Runics will do literally nothing for the bug. A Suwayyah + Runic (normally a slow combo) becomes much, much faster when bugging (a visible difference you can also feel while dueling).

Was dueling between looking at the ias tables, so I'm still establishing exact claw speed. I had been under the impression that wsm bugging did affect trap laying speed, and with a dueling partner I believe we saw a noticable difference in him going from suwwayah suwwayah to bugging with greater talon and suwwayah in his trap laying speed.
I hope you are talking about 2x Suwayyah, so bear with me for a sec :P

2x Suwayyah requires an insane amount of Ias. Even a non-bugged combo of GT + Suwayyah is much faster, and a bugged Suwayyah + GT is a ton faster.

However, bugging with 2x Suwayyahs also does absolutely nothing for the WSM. Since the goal is to change the average, there has to be a difference in WSM in the first place. 2x of the same base speeds will not change the AWSM.

WSM Bugging

WSM bugging is a little trick used to lower the AWSM of your two claws, lowering the IAS requirements for trap + non-WW animations. It works by placing your secondary claw in your inventory first. That means that after you switch to your weapons, lift and replace your glove-side claw, and it’ll bug your WSM.
I feel it's required to note that the secondary claw is not only a different type, but must be a faster claw than the one over the gloves. This is crucial.


So what I was doing wrong was the averaging the clawspeeds - but just to be clear, the IAS on the claw does or does not affect its wsm, since AoAA's original statement was that IAS on secondary claw doesn't count?
IAS has zero affect on the WSM. What he means is that the base claw speed (-30 WSM for a runic) is what determines what break point to hit (42% for traps for a runic). Secondary claws do not add up to that percentage, only the primary claw's IAS can count. The secondary claw's speed works only on WW, which is dependent on each individual claw.

The ias on the claw would affect its base speed, effectively turning -30 to -65 (chaos runic/gt) as I'm seeing according to Ias Tables. Since a level 5 bos is all that's needed to see 9fpa, when testing between my claws and fade vs no claws and bos there's only the slightest speed difference.
That is true only for WW (to determine if it hits -13). For determining trap speed, no amount of IAS will change a Runic/GT from -30 AWSM. There is no way to change a WSM to -65. Even with WSM bugging, I think the max was -50 it could acheive.

Looking at this, please show me where I'm wrong in my understanding -

If only going off primary claw (no awsm)
I'll interrupt a tiny bit, but I have to say, the AWSM is just so important. If they're the same base WSM, then that's fine, but always assume you're working on the AWSM when determining speeds while c/c.

40% IAS on Fury = +30 EIAS
-30 WSM of Fury = +30 EIAS
60% EIAS leaves me needing 1 to hit 9fpa does it not, being the bp is 61. 1% EIAS is different than IAS, I do see where that was wrong to say IAS vs EIAS. However the only IAS Jewels I'm aware of are 15% and calculating that 15% in the mix puts us over the 9fpa breakpoint.
Erm, I see a few things wrong. While a Runic with 40% ias provides 30 EIAS, you MUST state that to be the case. Simply stating "40 IAS on Fury" can be misleading, though you were indeed talking about Runics. The same goes for the -30 adding 30EIAS. Keep in mind that only a RT/GT will add that 30. A Feral Fury (which may well be used) will not add this, so specifying reduces alot of confusion. It's more of a precaution IMO. :)

The 60% EIAS is the game's internal calculation determining why only a Runic Fury will hit 10 frames, however, this is not the same as the 1% IAS you described earlier. If you meant 1% EIAS, that would be an entirely different story, but IAS and EIAS are different, so again, please keep things separate. A 15% IAS jewel in the helm would puch you over the 61% EIAS easily, but that's the goal ^^

In the case of two claws being -30, the awsm is -30 as we don't calculate the ias on either claw for awsm - that I was unclear about as I had interpreted the modified wsm as applying always, not just to ww.
Glad you finally get this part of the WSM. :)

Currently, I'm using a Feral Chaos and Runic Suwwayah. I typically don't bug the awsm for the sake of convenience since I hit the 10frame break point, and don't want to be caught off guard on an accidental weapon switch resetting bug awsm
Ok, this really stood out at me. Feral Chaos is one thing, but Runic Suwayyah? That'd be neat, but uh...yeah :P

If you meant Feral Chaos + Runic Fury, then yeah, that'd hit the 10 frame trap speed (Fury primary). Feral Chaos + Suwayyah Fury does not hit a 10 frame trap, however; it hits the 11 frame trap speed.

To WSM bug anyway, it's usually best for the Chaos to be the slow claw (Suwayyah), and Fury be the faster one (Runic or Feral, depending on available IAS (highlords comes to mind)).

I think the lack of an example of 2 ias claws would have helped to make things abundantly more clearer, as I was under the impression that the modified wsm applied even in awsm calculations because of how it leads the EIAS calculations. The beginning notes that the IAS on second claw will only apply to whirlwind and normal attack, but it doesn't explicitly state that in calculating weapon speed, you only use the base speed and not the modified weapon speed when averaging the wsm. I believe that is where a lot of us have been getting mixed up initially when running our numbers. When I think average of each weapon speed, I'm thinking the final speed of both claws would be most logical as opposed to just the base speeds.
Well the intro to the IAS Tables defines WSM, and then says that that is what determines the break points to shoot for in the charts. I can almost see how one would think MWSM, but for future reference it's AWSM.

As for 42ias vs 61EIAS, I was under the impression that equipment IAS and weapon IAS calculated differently. Hitting 42ias sounds much simpler when you know the 40ias on your claw counts toward it, which oddly enough never gets mentioned yet the standard claw for a ghost is fury.
Erm, well, the weapons are equipment :P .

I'm guessing the reader would be able to think that the 40% IAS on their claw helps (as long as they understand the relation between primary and secondary, which some still don't grasp.

For the sake of freeing up your helm and so you don't need any jewels for IAS, WSM Bugging is so much better for the ghost. On top of less required IAS, you get a stronger WW too.
 
Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

Erm, I see a few things wrong. While a Runic with 40% ias provides 30 EIAS, you MUST state that to be the case. Simply stating "40 IAS on Fury" can be misleading, though you were indeed talking about Runics. The same goes for the -30 adding 30EIAS. Keep in mind that only a RT/GT will add that 30. A Feral Fury (which may well be used) will not add this, so specifying reduces alot of confusion. It's more of a precaution IMO. :)
there's quite a bit of terminology tangling in the recent posts, but i think what he said there is right (unless i'm misinterpreting your comment). in the EIAS = -WSM + ([IAS*120]/[IAS+120]) formula, the equipment IAS and claw WSM are treated separately (they're just added together), so its ok to say that the 40% IAS of any fury will give you +30 EIAS, since its independent of the weapon type and WSM. hes separating out the WSM and IAS components of the EIAS calculation, showing that they both add +30, summing up to EIAS = +60 for a RT/GT fury.

i did make a mistake in the guide by referencing the MWSM BP for WW as an EIAS one though

edit: i'll PM U_M to see if he can change that for me

double edit: i guess i can edit my own guide now; change made



 
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Re: WW Ghost Assassin Guide V2.0

there's quite a bit of terminology tangling in the recent posts, but i think what he said there is right (unless i'm misinterpreting your comment). in the EIAS = -WSM + ([IAS*120]/[IAS+120]) formula, the equipment IAS and claw WSM are treated separately (they're just added together), so its ok to say that the 40% IAS of any fury will give you +30 EIAS, since its independent of the weapon type and WSM. hes separating out the WSM and IAS components of the EIAS calculation, showing that they both add +30, summing up to EIAS = +60 for a RT/GT fury.

i did make a mistake in the guide by referencing the MWSM BP for WW as an EIAS one though

edit: i'll PM U_M to see if he can change that for me

double edit: i guess i can edit my own guide now; change made
I read back & was typing before I grabbed the calculator, so perhaps "wrong" wasn't quite the most prudent thing to say, but meh.

The Fury will more or less give a "base" EIAS then? If that's not going to change, then the WSM is the only other factor unless there is outside IAS.




Maybe it's just me, but I need things specified or I start thinking weird :P


 
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