WitchWild String Sockets?

[mysticc]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

WWS sucks period.
The deadly strike is not much considering that zons have like 70%+ critical strike already. And amp can be gotten from Atma's scarab, or even a plain reaper on merc for decrep. Brand bow also gives amp I think.
It is maybe a sort of compromise for poorer folks but in that case it is simply better to give up on strafe and go FA/EA with +skills bow

Yeah, i couldn't agree more. It's actually strange that the WWS is very expensive on non-ladder. I know it's probably uncommon there, but still. I find that odd. I only kept it because I thought I could get something for it once it hits non-ladder in a few months (or whenever that happens). I have no intentions of continuing to use it - I just tried it out.

I also use atma's and stuff on my bowazons for the same reasons you gave.

 

[wickedswami]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Up'd wws is the best weapon for a strafer if that's all you can afford.
Other then that, there's nothing very special about it. It's a budget item.

 

[mysticc]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Up'd wws is the best weapon for a strafer if that's all you can afford.
Other then that, there's nothing very special about it. It's a budget item.

I agree. The irony is that an up'd one costs more on non-ladder than the lower-budget options. Haha

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I couldn't disagree more about the "WWS sucks" posts. I have a WWS Strafer and she clears The Pit on /players 7 in no time. The thing is, WWS isn't a bow you can simply put in your 'zon hands and call it a day. Minimum support is required, in order to maximize its strenghts. And by support I mean stuff that is great all the time. You just need the right mods and enough of them. Here's an overview:

1. MultiShot. I can't stress this enough. Use Strafe until Amp Dmg procs, then MS the mob. People say MS sucks with WWS because only the two middle arrows carry the %ampdmg, but forget completely that you can simply MS *after* amp dmg procs.

2. AR. This is VERY important. Without good AR, then yes amp dmg will take a LONG time to proc. With 8k or more AR, it procs REALLY fast. I have 8500 iirc.

3. 90% ias total for Strafe, while trying to get to 105% for MS (although that is not as mandatory as 90%). Gotta make the arrows fly.

4. Sharp charms. They go a long way in providing that extra damage and AR. At least half your inventory should be +dmg/ar charms, maybe more.

5. Laying of Hands. Even in areas where demons aren't the majority of monsters, they're still like 50% or more. I'm discounting places like AT, Mausoleum because who runs those with a Strafer? Skeletons can't be leeched off, for example. For the places where you'll use your Strafer, LoH is key and provides a lot of extra damage.

6. High Dex. 350 minimum methinks on a clvl84+ strafer. It goes a long way in making upd WWS the killing weapon it can be.

Also, 70% Critical Strike requires 23 points total, how the heck "zons have 70+% CS already"? In order to get max Deadly/Critical Strike one will need a lot of points in CS, plus Highlord's and Gores, and STILL not have max chance for double damage. All WWS needs is 1 point in CS and the DS mod it has. It's much better in that regard. Plus, it clears the Amulet slot for a godly rare/craft or Cat's Eye, which adds 35 dex, a HUGE bonus to dps.

And thanks to max DS/CS and amp dmg, WWS deals four times its damage (it's actually more because of the way amp dmg works, iirc. If I'm wrong I apologize). I have ~800-1200 listed damage, with a 2x Shael upd 155% WWS with Might Merc and Fort and I dominate in areas such as The Pits. WWS is definitely viable, of course it's not going to be better than Faith Merc + WF or Pride and Might Merc + Faith, but I think it's single-handedly the best end game physical bow in the game after WF and Faith.

 

[stephan]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

In your post there is not one point that is specific to WWS. All bows benefit from more dex, max damage charms etc.

The problem with WWS is that it is outdamaged by a non-upped Buriza (and even more by an upped Buriza) by such a large factor that the few times Amp actually does proc doesn't make up for it.

 

[zaphodbrx]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

^^exactly.
I used an unupped buriza for my first LF/strafe zon and was much more satisfied with it.

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

The MultiShot when the mob is amped is a way to kill quite fast with WWS that I don't know if most people use. Most guides dismiss it by saying "only the middle arrows carry amp" and as a result I think many build a WWS strafer without MS, and that is a benefit that is lacking.

And amp dmg isn't just another critical/deadly strike multiplier, it removes phys resistance and even breaks some immunities. This makes quite a difference. The only way to get that without WWS is Atma's, which takes the ammy slot for amp dmg alone. Plus, WWS + 1 pt in Critical Strike = max % of double damage. Other bows will need Deadly Strike from gear, a lot of points in CS, and still not hit the 100% (or is it 95%?) max % without some *serious* investment in DS gear and CS points.

Also, Buriza is slower than WWS and takes way more IAS to be satisfying:

Bow 0 second-to-last fastest Strafe sequence:
4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+5, 90 IAS required

Crossbow 10 second-to-last fastest Strafe sequence:
6,4,3,4,3,4,3,4,3,4+5 175 IAS required

Buriza comes with a maximum 100 IAS if Shaeled, so you need 75% more to still be slower than a 2x Shael WWS which only needs 50 more ias.

Tell you what. I'll try the Buriza on my WWS Strafer and get back. I'm fairly positive that WWS will outdamage it, but I'll believe you and try it out.

 

[stephan]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

The MultiShot when the mob is amped is a way to kill quite fast with WWS that I don't know if most people use. Most guides dismiss it by saying "only the middle arrows carry amp" and as a result I think many build a WWS strafer without MS, and that is a benefit that is lacking.

I find strafe lacking. The problem for me was not the damage after amp. The problem was getting something amped in the first place.

And amp dmg isn't just another critical/deadly strike multiplier, it removes phys resistance and even breaks some immunities. This makes quite a difference.

It doesn't make a difference if it doesn't proc reliably. Add to that you can always have a reapers merc which *will* proc decrep reliably.

Plus, WWS + 1 pt in Critical Strike = max % of double damage.

No. Critical and Deadly strike don't stack.

Also, Buriza is slower than WWS and takes way more IAS to be satisfying:

Also, the avg damage of a Buriza before any effect is more than double that of an upped WWS.

Bow 0 second-to-last fastest Strafe sequence:
4,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2,2+5, 90 IAS required

2 frame strafe doesn't work for bows server side. 3 frame is max.

Crossbow 10 second-to-last fastest Strafe sequence:
6,4,3,4,3,4,3,4,3,4+5 175 IAS required

Same here. 4 frame strafe is max for x bows.

You don't have to lecture me on numbers. I know them by heart by now.

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

stephan, I didn't mean to lecture you, sorry if it came out that way. It's just that you are ignoring (or simply aren't aware of) onderduiker's posts about Strafe's IAS, which is more complicated than the whole 3/2 or 4/3 frames thing, even if you know the numbers by heart

First, WWS procs VERY often in my experience. You just need to have a decent AR. I have ~8700, clvl88, and the monster I hit less often in The Pit are skeletons, which I hit 85% of the time. Devilkins 89% and the archers/dark stalkers I have a 95% cth. Amp dmg procs VERY often under those conditions. It's like I said in my other post, max penetrate and enough AR from gear is a must to make WWS viable. When a weapon's biggest strenght is the ctc amp dmg, you have to optimize that in order to justify using the weapon. Have you tried WWS with a chance to hit of 85% and more?

From what I've read in the Amazon forum, Critical and Deadly Strike stack, just not linearly (simply one plus the other). First DS is applied. If it works, CS is ignored. If it fails, CS is applied. A clvl 85% WWS Strafer with a 32% Critical Strike (1 point +2 skills) has 85% + 15% x 32% chance to get double damage, which isn't 100%, I know, but is still more often than, say, an Amazon with 48% Deadly Strike (33 from highlord's plus 15 from Gore's) and 61% from Critical Strike (which is slvl13, and more than that is often unrealistic when you also want/have to max penetrate, valk, a bow skill, and also get the prereqs and pierce).

With 85% DS and 32% CS, there's a 89,8% chance to get double damage (which is why I said it is "max" chance, because this is only 5,2% away from the max 95% chance, and this is considering you have a slvl3 CS only, and your character is clvl85 only).

With 48% DS and 61% CS, there's a 79,72% chance to get double damage. This is 10% less, you need to have Gore's as your boots and a slvl13 CS, while the WWS Strafer has WWS, 1 pt in Critical Strike, and only +2 to all skills from gear.

And from onderduiker's posts, Strafe is a lot more complicated than "2-frame doesn't exist, ignore it". He says that the slvl of Strafe matters, the number of mininum and maximum arrows fired matters, and the ammount of monsters in the mob also matters. Getting 90% IAS with a Bow 0 won't get you a "2-frame attack" but it can ineed give you a faster attack/damage. Check onderduiker's posts and tables.

 

[stephan]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Sorry, but onderduiker's post does not conflict with mine. If so you think so, please quote the relevant part. It's rather important, because the damage difference of 2 vs 3 fpa or 3 vs 4 fpa is rather large.

Now, if you'd actually do the dps calculations, then ignoring amp Buriza does around 50% more damage than an upped WWS. That's a lot to make up for with 2% ctc amp especially considering you can simply take the decrep merc.

The max chance to do double damage is 100%.

 

[wickedswami]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

every strafe volley has about 18% chance to proc amp.
This means that, at times, the monsters will die before amp procs, but it is reliable enough when it matters: against those monsters that don't die fast. Bosses, uniques, etc will get the amp procced and in those situations your wws will out-damage the buriza.
I guess that the weaker you are, the more effect you'll get from the amp (as it takes longer to kill=more hits=more chance to proc).
This further enhances the idea that it's a budget choice.

If you can afford a fortitude for your merc, you can probably afford a better bow.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

With 85% DS and 32% CS, there's a 89,8% chance to get double damage (which is why I said it is "max" chance, because this is only 5,2% away from the max 95% chance, and this is considering you have a slvl3 CS only, and your character is clvl85 only).

With 48% DS and 61% CS, there's a 79,72% chance to get double damage. This is 10% less, you need to have Gore's as your boots and a slvl13 CS, while the WWS Strafer has WWS, 1 pt in Critical Strike, and only +2 to all skills from gear.

It's 10.08% increase in chance: in terms of damage over time, it's the difference between averaging 1.898 and 1.7972 times damage over time, or only ~5.6% increase (1.898/1.7972).

And from onderduiker's posts, Strafe is a lot more complicated than "2-frame doesn't exist, ignore it". He says that the slvl of Strafe matters, the number of mininum and maximum arrows fired matters, and the ammount of monsters in the mob also matters. Getting 90% IAS with a Bow 0 won't get you a "2-frame attack" but it can ineed give you a faster attack/damage. Check onderduiker's posts and tables.

Both Witchwild String and Buriza-Do Kyanon have a Strafe breakpoint at 50 EIAS, requiring 86 IAS (4|[highlight]2[/highlight]|7 or 4|3|7) and 120 IAS (6|4|[highlight]3[/highlight]|10 or 6|4|10) respectively. Assuming limited skill bonuses, let's compare the attack rate of BDK with level 20 Strafe (7 minimum arrows) to that of WWS with level 16 Strafe (6 minimum arrows):

WEAPON     TARGETS
           1             2-6          7            8            9            10
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
BDK        5.6 (34/6)    4.8 (34/7)   4.8 (34/7)   4.6 (37/8)   4.5 (41/9)   4.4 (44/10)
WWS        5.0 (76/15)   3.1 (19/6)   3.5 (21/6)   3.2 (23/7)   3.1 (25/8)   3.3 (27/8)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
INCREASE   ~11.8%        ~53.4%       ~38.8%       ~40.8%       ~45.8%       ~30.4%

So at most, higher chance of critical damage and faster attack rate increase WWS damage over time by ~62% ( 1.898/1.7972 * (34/7) / (19/6) ) against 2-6 targets.

WWS Diamond Bow has 33-40 base damage and average 160% (150-170%) Enhanced Damage, resulting in 85-104 (94.5 average) weapon damage. BDK Ballista has 33-55 base damage and average 175% (150-200%) Enhanced Damage, resulting in 90-151 (120.5 average) weapon damage. However, it also has +2.5 Maximum Damage per character level, which at level 85 results in 90-363 (226.5 average) weapon damage: that's ~140% more.

So higher critical damage and faster attack rate don't come close to compensating for the much higher weapon damage of BDK. Calculating damage over time at level 85 against 2-6 targets, taking into account just weapon damage, critical damage chance and attack rate:

WWS =  94.5 * 1.898  * 25 / (19/6) ~ 1,416
BDK = 226.5 * 1.7972 * 25 / (34/7) ~ 2,095

As stephan has pointed out, that's still ~48% more damage over time. There's no reason why both weapons can't have similar chance-to-hit, so it comes down to the 2% Chance to Cast Level 5 Amplify Damage on Striking of WWS, the impact of which is much harder to quantify (being dependent on chance-to-hit, piercing and number of arrows or targets).

every strafe volley has about 18% chance to proc amp.

That is the chance of at least one of 10 strikes or hits casting Amplify Damage (1 - 0.98^10), and it does not take into account chance-to-hit. At 95% chance-to-hit, the chance of the attack casting AD is 1.9% (0.95*0.02*100), so the chance of at least one of 10 attacks casting AD is ( 1 - (1-0.019)^10 ), or ~17.5%.

CHANCE-TO-HIT   CHANCE TO CAST
------------------------------
          95%           ~17.5%
          90%           ~16.6%
          85%           ~15.8%
          80%           ~14.9%
          75%           ~14.0%

This gets reduced even further by the chance to block of Act bosses in Hell:

CHANCE-TO-HIT   CHANCE TO CAST FOR BLOCK
                40%      50%     55%
----------------------------------------
          95%   ~10.8%   ~9.1%   ~8.2%
          90%   ~10.3%   ~8.6%   ~7.8%
          85%    ~9.7%   ~8.2%   ~7.4%
          80%    ~9.2%   ~7.7%   ~7.0%
          75%    ~8.6%   ~7.3%   ~6.5%

Of course, most monsters have no chance to block and spawn in large groups, so piercing can drastically increase the number of strikes per volley: if 10 arrows pierce 4 times and strike 5 targets each, that's up to 50 strikes per volley. However, even if the number and position of targets allow it, with 95% chance to hit and 100% piercing there's only ~7.7% (0.95^50) chance of 50 strikes from a single volley... although 50 attacks would result in ~61.7% ( 1 - (1-0.019)^50 ) chance of at least one casting AD (20 would result in ~31.9% chance).

 

[crawlingdeadman1]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

good stuff in here. :thumbsup:

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

wow, onderduiker, that's a lot of awesomeness in a post. Thanks a lot (and thanks too for the previous explanation! sry I didn't mention it earlier) for showing me what the numbers actually are and mean. I guess I was underestimating Buriza. I won't say I'm overestimating WWS because I really am doing p7 Pit and p3 Chaos Sanc runs at remarkable kill speed with it, and it has nothing to do with Fort - when I had two Ruby jools on WWS and Treachery, it was only a little less efficient than now, with 2x Shael and Fort.

Just a few random thoughts, though:

1. Even is the % to get double dmg from DS and CS really is only 5.6% more in practice, you have to take into account that it is indeed more, and with ZERO support. Just WWS and 1 pt in CS. In the example I gave, the strafer had Highlord's AND Gore's AND slvl13 Critical Strike with a non-WWS bow, all that for, like you pointed out, 5% less double damage. Slvl13 Critical Strike for instance will require, for most zons, ~10 hard points in it, because the optimal strafer gear doesn't come with a lot of +skills. Even bnet players will have probably only Torch and Highlord's/+2 Ammy, maybe some from the helmet too.

2. Thanks to the great speed of WWS, when combined with a good Attack Rating, amp dmg procs REALLY fast and reliably. It really does. I rarely kill a mob before amp procs at leasy once, and when amp does proc, the mob simply vanishes. Plus, stone skin boss packs are much much MUCH faster to deal with Amp - I realize Buriza has some cold damage in it, but I think it's not going to be very significant in Hell.

Overall, though, thanks for pointing out that Buriza indeed does more damage than WWS. But when amp dmg procs, I WWS is superior, and then it comes down to getting +ar gear and enough points in Pierce in order to make amp dmg proc as often as possible and thus make WWS a better choice, in this case.

 

[hubb]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

You don't really need all those items and maxed CS to get a decent amount of crit. Take into account that Burrito comes with 100% piercing, so the level 9 Pierce you'd need to get with WWS + Razortail falls away and you can have level 10 CS (56%) with the same amount of points spent.

WWS = 94.5 * 1.898 * 25 / (19/6) ~ 1,416
BDK = 226.5 * 1.7972 * 25 / (34/7) ~ 2,095
BDK = 226.5 * 1.56 * 25 / (34/7) ~ 1865

So still a 32% increase before amp applies. No doubt WWS is superior once that procs, but my experience is the same as stephan's - it just does not happen quickly and often enough.

I'd say your gear setup and how you run explains it. When you start adding the max damage from WT, jewels and charms it'll increase WWS's damage more than in Burrito's case, plus since you play at P7 you've got plenty of time to proc amp. At P1 Burrito kills them before that happens.

 

[mysticc]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I think one point I would like to add, if it hasn't been already, is that with most good bows, you don't have to wait for the amp damage to proc at all to get good results with it, so you immediately are effective out of the gate. There is no lag to "get going".

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I'd say your gear setup and how you run explains it. When you start adding the max damage from WT, jewels and charms it'll increase WWS's damage more than in Burrito's case, plus since you play at P7 you've got plenty of time to proc amp. At P1 Burrito kills them before that happens.

Well, on p1 WWS with the deadly strike and gear support alone also kills everyone before apm dmg happens

On p3-p5, the runs are almost just as fast as p1, and you increase the number of drops greatly (or, technically, reduce the "no drop"). It doesn't take forever for amp dmg to proc, sometimes the mob dies before that happens (and it doesn't take forever), and when amp dmg DOES proc, they drop dead after a few multishots.

On p7, which is what I run now, it's also almost just as fast as p5, but the xp is much better, there are more itens being dropped as well, and, like I said before, the speed is still very very very good. Of course, I am clvl89 (just leveled!), have max penetrate, which means ~9k AR, have the inv full of sharp/fine charms, have Fort+Might, etc. That surely helps too (but would help any bow/xbow, so there).

Btw, I just tried a Buriza, with Highlord's instead of Cat's Eye, and a slvl7 critical strike, and I found it lacking on p7. I was leeching a lot slower, and even though each arrow was "more deadly", it was too slow for my liking (even with 140% ias) and a Stone Skin skellie boss pack (immune to cold) took forever to die. The run with WWS is ~2-3 minutes faster. The 140% IAS total with the Buriza (non-upd btw, but buriza's strenghts are max pierce and ed% on max damage, so being a Ballista didn't matter a lot) means I hit the 120 strafe bp and the 140 MS bp, but it was still too slow for my tastes.

From my experience, in my strafer, I'll simply stick to WWS until I find a WF or get the runes for Faith (which I can already cube to but Infinity is higher on my "to do" list).

 

[stephan]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

1. Even is the % to get double dmg from DS and CS really is only 5.6% more in practice, you have to take into account that it is indeed more, and with ZERO support. Just WWS and 1 pt in CS. In the example I gave, the strafer had Highlord's AND Gore's AND slvl13 Critical Strike with a non-WWS bow, all that for, like you pointed out, 5% less double damage.

% double damage is irrelevant. Even with less double damage, Buriza does a lot more actual damage.

Slvl13 Critical Strike for instance will require, for most zons, ~10 hard points in it, because the optimal strafer gear doesn't come with a lot of +skills. Even bnet players will have probably only Torch and Highlord's/+2 Ammy, maybe some from the helmet too.

It's ok, because with Buriza you need to spend 0 points in Pierce.

Btw, I just tried a Buriza, with Highlord's instead of Cat's Eye, and a slvl7 critical strike, and I found it lacking on p7. I was leeching a lot slower, and even though each arrow was "more deadly", it was too slow for my liking (even with 140% ias) and a Stone Skin skellie boss pack (immune to cold) took forever to die.

So you didn't use a reapers merc?

 

[Dacar92]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

WWS sucks period.
The deadly strike is not much considering that zons have like 70%+ critical strike already. And amp can be gotten from Atma's scarab, or even a plain reaper on merc for decrep. Brand bow also gives amp I think.
It is maybe a sort of compromise for poorer folks but in that case it is simply better to give up on strafe and go FA/EA with +skills bow

This doesn't help the discussion at all. It's like someone saying they want to make a Zon to MF in The Pits or to do Cows and someone replies make a sorc.

The fact is that this discussion was about WWS and how to use it, what to socket it with, etc. Some people like to use other items even if they are rich. Just for the challenge. I prefer the game that way instead of plowing through it with little thought or strategy.

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

@Bassano: Nope, I don't have one my merc is with a ShaelAmn Bonehew.

Adding more food for thought, I tried using an upgraded Goldstrike Arch. A very nice roll one, check it out:

View attachment 914

Okay-ish AR and ED%, but superb ED% to Demons and Undead. I upped and Shaeled it, in order to hit the 120 IAS Bp with the same gear that I use to hit the 90 IAS bp with my WWS.

I did a lot of runs with it, and I liked it a lot better than Buriza. And then I did some more, alternating between WWS and GSA, on various psettings (3, 5 and 7, players 1 really is too easy in the Pits for my now clvl90 Strafer). I've found that:

On p3, they are about equal in effectiveness.
On p5 WWS runs are slightly faster, even more if the run has a Stone Skin boss pack (poor GSA).
On p7 WWS wins by a mile and is, in fact, the only option. GSA just takes too long in general and specially vs some mobs - Stone Skin boss packs take FOREVER on p5-p7.

I have 800-1200 damage with the WWS on the LCS, and ~300-2000 with GSA. Thing is, because WWS has nearly max Deadly Strike % plus amp dmg, the damage from all my other pieces of gear get multiplied by 4 as well, not only bow damage, which is why (I think) WWS is being the better weapon for me. I must have nearly +50 max dmg from charms, and with nearly max DS and when amp dmg procs, it's +200 dmg. With GSA that dmg is multiplied by 2 only, and not nearly as often as WWS's DS chance.

Plus, my AR is now near 9k with WWS, which means I hit skellies 85% of the time, devilkins 90% of the time, and dark stalkers and archers 95% of the time. I have 77% Pierce too. Amp dmg procs VERY VERY often in this case. I also have now put more points in CS too (the chance is 54%), and it even helps with WWS too for 10% x 54% = 5,4% more chance of critical strike working, compared to the extra ~3,2% I had before, bringing me up to 95,4% total. Correct me if I'm wrong.

And the 11.9k AR I get with GSA, while nice, doesn't help GSA come out on top. Even the ~200% versus undead/demons (which is simply 200% ED since there are only undeads and demons in The Pits) doesn't help GSA come out on top.

So, since I don't have WF nor Faith, I have upd GSA, WWS and Buriza as the only options, and WWS is resulting in the fastest runs for me. I know I don't have enough numbers/info to back this up, I'm don't intend to create an endless discussion here about the viability of one bow vs another, I don't intend to make huge posts filled with numbers and stuff, I'm just making a statement:

In my experience, for my strafer, WWS equals faster runs both versus Buriza and versus GSA. I don't know all the reasons why that happens, I just know that this is so.

Thoughts?

(edit - fixed CS% to 54 when carrying the WWS. I thought I had 56% with WWS but that's with GSA, because I get +1 from Highlord's)