WitchWild String Sockets?

[droid]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Witchwild string w/ 2x shaels.
i prefer mostly on the chipmc's guide.

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

You really really want an Eth in one socket, to improve your hitrate and procrate. To-hit is just as important as damage for your DPS. The other socket you really want a Nef, if you dont have KB somewhere else. If you do, then probably another Eth to bump your hitrate even more, or a Pskull/Amn if you need a little leechery.

 

[Hipster Ariel]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

This. I stuck some 3x% ed jewels in mine.

It's a solid bow, you really can't go wrong with what you put into it. I'd avoid hrs though :crazyeyes:

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

So, for strafer, IAS is not that important?

As long as most of your arrows are firing at 3 frames you won't be noticing much difference.

Diamond bow will give you 3-frame Strafe without any additional IAS. Strafe is what you want to be using as your primary attack with WWS. Shael really doesnt do you much good at all.

These are the complete IAS breakpoint tables for Strafe with Witchwild String:

FRAMES/ATTACK              IAS
First   Follow   Last
------------------------------
    6        3     10        0
    6        3      9       13
    5        3      9       26
    5        3      8       29
    5        3      7       56
    4        [highlight]2[/highlight]      7       86
    4        [highlight]2[/highlight]      6      113

There is a bug affecting the last two breakpoints, such that the animations displayed are 4/2/7 and 4/2/6 but the actual attack sequences are 4/3/7 and 4/3/6. This has led to the belief that the last two breakpoints aren't worth reaching (some may even believe there's no improvement whatsoever), since a single 10 arrow Strafe sequence lasts 36 frames with 56 IAS and 34 frames with 113 IAS, an increase of ~5.9% (there's also the fact that once the displayed animation has finished after 26 frames with 113 IAS, the Amazon cannot move until the actual attack sequence has finished in 34 frames, 8 frames or 0.32 second later).

However, since Strafe is normally fired continuously, this belief is wrong: when the displayed animation finishes, the actual attack sequence is interrupted and a new attack sequence begins. The last part of the Strafe animation after the final arrow has been fired is the longest single component, so interrupting the sequence before it gets to this part can still result in a greater increase in attack rate (sometimes even if the sequence is interrupted before all arrows have been fired).

Strafe's actual attack rate is complicated by this bug, Next Delay and number of arrows, in such a way that its maximum attack rate against <10 stationary targets requires level 28-31 Strafe (always minimum 9 arrows) and just 86 IAS with Witchwild String: this results in an average attack rate of five frames per arrow against a single target and 3.125 frames per arrow against <10 targets when no arrow has to pass through another target.

Maximum attack rate against >9 targets is 3.25 frames per arrow with level >31 and 113 IAS, which is only ~3.8% faster than level 28-31 and 86 IAS (which is still 10.8% faster against 2-9 targets and 4% faster against one).

Compared to level 28-31 and 0 IAS (6 1/6 frames per arrow against a single target, 4 1/9 against <10), 86 IAS (5 vs 1, 3.125 vs <10) results in increases of ~23% and ~31.6% respectively; compared to 56 IAS (5.5 vs 1, 3 2/3 vs <10), 86 IAS results in increases of 10% and ~17.3% respectively.

For comparison purposes, 7 frame maximum attack rate with all other bow skills is ~14.3% increase on 8 frames, and 8 frames is 12.5% increase on 9 frames.

The Amazon Basin wiki's Strafe and Amazon attack rate pages go into more detail, based on analysis posted in the Crushing Blow and Strafe topic in the AB's Bowazon Room. In reality it gets even more complicated due to target movement (walking, running and Knockback), but I don't think anyone has tried taking the analysis that far.

 

[Hipster Ariel]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

So...

Ias jewels with whatever ed% you can get on them?

 

[droid]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

So...

Ias jewels with whatever ed% you can get on them?

You werent even listening, were you? :|

Two 15% IAS jewels with ED (which, by the way, you could probably trade for a better bow than WWS), will only increase your actual Strafe cycle by *one* frame out of *forty* (6/3...3/10 to 5/3...3/8, but that last one gets interrupted anyway). The ED is all you really need.

Better to look for an ED jewel with min/max/dex as the suffix. Or, even better and cheaper, NefEth. Eth will increase your DPS about the same as a 30something ED jewel, depending on your current hitrate vs L85 monsters (Pits, CS, WSK), and also increase your procrate for Amp by the same amount, which statistically increases your DPS even more.

Nef gives you KB, a tactical advantage thats not easily quantified but definitely makes a difference, not only in keeping monsters away from you, but also for putting monsters in hit recovery to help keep your merc and valk alive, though if you're just out for pure offense, Eth/ED jewel is probably the best combo.

 

[Hipster Ariel]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

Maybe I should stick to zealots lol

 

[sinub]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I'm not really into those math. And I don't try to perfect every small part of my zon.
All I know is 115% IAS (w/ 2x shaels) looks faster than 75% IAS (I'm playing it right now and the different is easy to spot :-? ). But if the math really show that the different in actual action doesn't scale much then I'll consider changing it to 2x eth.

Maybe I'm just in NM and the AR is not a problem. When in Hell (a couple of days from now) I'll test out 2x shael vs 2x eth. Let's see which one has the edge. I won't put anything more into dex (~190 atm) so the AR right now (lvl54) and when in Hell (probably ~lvl63-65) is the same.

I won't do NefEth 'cause I'm playing w/ my friend's frostzon. He'll get mad if I keep pushing his 'pack of mob' everywhere. lol

p/s: anyone ever play a game w/ 8 strafer? Damn, only 2 and I'm excited to see arrows fly everywhere

 

[Hipster Ariel]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I just use enchant charges, it knocks the AR problems out.

I'm not even sure why people want knock back in softcore.

Maybe I'm just in NM and the AR is not a problem.

Yeah that's just NM. Hell is a different ball of wax.

NM is about as tough as hell pre-1.10

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

I'm not really into those math. And I don't try to perfect every small part of my zon.
All I know is 115% IAS (w/ 2x shaels) looks faster than 75% IAS (I'm playing it right now and the different is easy to spot :-? ). But if the math really show that the different in actual action doesn't scale much then I'll consider changing it to 2x eth.

Sorry about all the technical detail in my previous post. The point is, the bugged breakpoints result in a faster attack rate than is commonly believed, so it's worth considering reaching them: the first bugged breakpoint (86 IAS for WWS) is always faster than the preceding non-bugged breakpoint, and sometimes it's even faster than the second bugged breakpoint (depending on the number of arrows fired).

Maximum attack rate against less than 10 targets requires level 28-31 Strafe (always minimum 9 arrows) and 86 IAS with Witchwild String; maximum attack rate against 10 targets requires level 32 or more (always 10 arrows) and 113 IAS, although this is only a slight improvement (~3.8%) on level 28-31 and 86 IAS against 10 targets, while it can be slower at times depending on the number of arrows fired.

Unfortunately Strafe's actual attack rate is a complicated matter...

Spoiler

Against multiple targets that are spread out so no target is hit by more than one arrow (so Strafe's 4 frame Next Delay isn't an issue), it's pretty straightforward prior to the last two breakpoints. Assuming 10 arrows are fired:

IAS   FRAMES                 ATTACK RATE INCREASE
      Sequence   10 Arrows   6/3/ 9   5/3/ 9   5/3/ 8   5/3/ 7
--------------------------------------------------------------
  0   6/3/10        40        ~2.6%    ~5.3%    ~8.1%   ~11.1%
 13   6/3/ 9        39         0.0%    ~2.6%    ~5.4%    ~8.3%
 26   5/3/ 9        38                  0.0%    ~2.7%    ~5.6%
 29   5/3/ 8        37                           0.0%    ~2.8%
 56   5/3/ 7        36                                    0.0%

The improvement between 0 IAS and 56 IAS is only ~11.1%, equivalent to reducing MS or GA attack rate by a single frame from 10 to 9 frames. Equip 30 IAS, and reaching the next breakpoint only improves attack rate by ~2.8%.

However, at 86 IAS the animation is 4/2/7 or 27 frames for 10 arrows, while the actual sequence is 4/3/7 or 35 frames for 10 arrows. When firing continuously, the actual sequence stops after 27 frames, resulting in the following:

ARROWS   1    2    3    4    5    6    7    8  | 9
-----------------------------------------------|---
FRAME     4    7   10   13   16   19   22   25 | 28

So in 27 frames only 8 arrows get fired, or 3.375 (27/8) frames per arrow on average. This compares to 4 (40/10) frames per arrow at 0 IAS and 3.6 (36/10) frames at 56 IAS... increases of ~18.5% and ~6.7% respectively.

Earlier I posted that 113 IAS and 10 arrows fired was actually the fastest against 10 targets: 8 arrows are fired in 26 frames, or 3.25 frames per arrow on average: this is an increase of ~23.1% on 0 IAS, ~10.8% on 56 IAS and ~3.8% on 86 IAS.

Again, for more detail consult the Amazon Basin wiki's Strafe and Amazon attack rate pages, which are based on the analysis posted in the Crushing Blow and Strafe topic in the AB's Bowazon Room.

Of course, attack rate isn't the only factor affecting damage over time, so let's return to a concrete example offered earlier in this thread:

Leo, even considering our baseline AR, Eth is still a huge bonus to our DPS, especially at the price. If you have, say, an 83% chance to hit on average in Chaos Sanctuary, and Eth raises it just to 89% (purely random numbers), thats a 6% total increase to your DPS. There's diminishing returns on pumping AR/dex for to-hit trying to get to that 95% cap, so decreasing defense is the best way to boost your DPS. Even an Ohm might not give you that much, if you already have high dex and enough off-weapon ED.

Increasing chance-to-hit from 83% to 89% may increase chance-to-hit by 6%, but in terms of damage per second you go from applying damage 83% of the time to 89% of the time, an increase of ~7.2% (100*6/83).

Storm Casters have 1,981 defence in Hell Ladder and Single Player games (Doom Knights, Oblivion Knights and Venom Lords have 1,898), so assuming equal level 83% chance-to-hit requires 9,672 Attack Rating. A single Eth Rune's -25% Target Defence reduces Storm Casters to 1,486 defence, resulting in ~86.7% (100*9672/(9672+1486)) chance-to-hit and ~4.4% DPS increase.

Two Eth Runes (-50% TD) reduces Storm Casters to 991 defence, resulting in ~90.7% chance-to-hit and ~9.3% DPS increase. The difference in attack rate (and thus DPS) between 0 IAS (6/3/10) and 56 IAS (5/3/7) with 10 arrows is ~11.1%... and the two bugged breakpoints are faster still. In general, if chance-to-hit is already high then improving it by whatever means isn't going to result in a huge improvement in DPS:

CHANCE-TO-HIT   DPS INCREASE WHEN INCREASED TO
                80%       85%       90%       95%
-----------------------------------------------------
     75%        ~6.7%     ~13.30%   20.0%     ~26.7%
     80%                    6.25%   12.5%      18.75%
     85%                            ~5.9%     ~11.8%
     90%                                       ~5.6%

Finally, since an Ohm Rune's +50% Enhanced Damage applies to base weapon damage before +% Damage from Dexterity and other sources, it's the weapon's +% Enhanced Damage, and base damage with + Min/Maximum Damage equipped, which determines the magnitude of its effect: a perfect WWS's +170% ED multiplies base weapon damage by 2.7, so an Ohm Rune increases this to 3.2 or ~18.5% more (100*0.5/2.7) in the absence of + Min/Maximum Damage.

A Diamond Bow (33-40 base) with +170% ED would increase from 89-108 to 104-133 (118.5 avg) with War Traveler Unique Battle Boots (Adds 15-25 Damage), which an Ohm Rune would increase to 120-153 (136.5 avg) or only ~15.2% more; adding another 60 Maximum Damage results in 104-193 (148.5 avg), which an Ohm Eune would increase to 120-213 (166.5 avg) or only ~10.8% more... and yet, this is still better than the two Eth Runes (~9.3% DPS increase) in the example given earlier.

 

[droid]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Am I getting scolded for not understanding that beast of a post onderduiker made? Cause what I took out of it was "strafe has speeds that arent displayed"

Maybe I should stick to zealots lol

Heh I didnt mean to excoriate you....I guess I've just been looking at IAS charts for a long time

I just use enchant charges, it knocks the AR problems out.

I'm not even sure why people want knock back in softcore.

Thats one solution, albeit expensive. I tend to avoid relying on prebuffs, and I assume for my suggestions that others do too, but of course thats an executive decision.

Same for KB. I find it inimitably useful for when I'm at the WWS stage of my zon's wealth accumulation, since I probably wont have Fort and Andys, etc., with an ebug armor and vgaze for my merc, so death and merc death is still a plausible scenario, but another judgment call for your zon.

*paraphrased in some parts by droid*

The bugged breakpoints result in a faster attack rate than is commonly believed, so it's worth considering reaching the first bugged breakpoint (86 IAS for WWS)

The improvement between 0 IAS and 56 IAS is only ~11.1%
The improvement between 0 and 86 IAS is 23-31%

Increasing chance-to-hit from 83% to 89% may increase chance-to-hit by 6%, but in terms of damage per second you go from applying damage 83% of the time to 89% of the time, an increase of ~7.2% (100*6/83).

A single Eth Rune's -25% Target Defence reduces Storm Casters to 1,486 defence, resulting in ~4.4% DPS increase.

Two Eth Runes (-50% TD) reduces Storm Casters to 991 defence, resulting in ~9.3% DPS increase.

A perfect WWS's +170% ED multiplies base weapon damage by 2.7, so an Ohm Rune increases this to 3.2 or ~18.5% more (100*0.5/2.7) in the absence of + Min/Maximum Damage.

If you'll forgive me for digesting your previous analyses for brevity...

When the question is what to socket in a WWS, I think you have to assume a priori that the player is not going to have carte blanche to socket with anything they want, so Ohm is out, as is 40/15s, probably 40/anythings, etc. WWS is, with the exception of maybe a Pit Strafer, not a primary endgame weapon, so anything that exceeds the trade value of a Windforce just raises the question of "why not just trade that for a WF?"

Same logic for your assumption of base to-hit rate...I think 83% is probably a little high for our hypothetical zon, who's probably not L85+ herself, and probably doesnt have 350+ dex, and probably doesnt have any persistent AR bonuses beyond maybe Atma's Scarab and Ravenfrost, and probably doesnt have Torch+Anni to free up SPs to boost Penetrate. The worse your real-world to-hit vs Storm Casters and other L85s, the more benefit you get out of Eth. Id say going from 73 to 83 might be a better baseline assumption than 83 to 89, which would increase Eth's to-hit DPS bonus to 13%

You also forgot to account for, as I mentioned before, the increase in procrate of Amp, which will give you 2-300% damage, proccing 7.2% more often, which factors into your total DPS advantage with Eth.

With the question of ED jewels vs IAS jewels vs Shaels vs Eth/XX for WWS, which is what the OP has boiled down to, you can either shoot for:

-86 IAS and that 23-31% DPS bonus, which means probably 2x Shael, 20% IAS gloves, Highlords for 20%, and then 10% IAS helm
-You can forego IAS entirely and go for the damage-added route, which means 2x ED jewels for a maybe ~60% ED bonus (35+% on-weapon DPS), plus freedom of other gear
-You can go for the hitrate route, with Eth for a bonus that's worth more the worse your baseline hitrate is and increased Amp procs, plus KB or an ED jewel or what-have-you

tldr: there isnt a one-size-fits-all best answer for what to socket in WWS At least not in real-world terms, though on paper you can find a superior though unrealistically-expensive setup.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I posted in this topic because you (among others) were dismissing Increased Attack Speed as a socketing option based on an incomplete understanding of Strafe's actual attack rate. While I'm also not interested in getting into a debate about Ohm Runes and Ruby Jewels of Fervour, Shael Runes (20 IAS) are both a reasonable and sensible option that had been written off.

Same logic for your assumption of base to-hit rate...I think 83% is probably a little high for our hypothetical zon, who's probably not L85+ herself

My assumption? That figure of 83% was taken from your post.

The worse your real-world to-hit vs Storm Casters and other L85s, the more benefit you get out of Eth. Id say going from 73 to 83 might be a better baseline assumption than 83 to 89, which would increase Eth's to-hit DPS bonus to 13%

Would a (more) realistic scenario be a level 80 Amazon with 73% chance-to-hit a Storm Caster? Since a Storm Caster has 1,981 defence in Hell Ladder and Single Player games, the Amazon has 6,034 AR:

Spoiler

80/(80+85) * 2 * AR/(AR+1981) = 73/100
        80/165 * AR/(AR+1981) = 73/200
                 AR/(AR+1981) = 73/200 * 165/80
                 AR/(AR+1981) = 12045/16000
                      16000AR = 12045(AR+1981)
              16000AR-12045AR = 23861145
                           AR = 23861145/3955
                           AR = 6034

A single Eth Rune increases chance-to-hit from 73% to ~77.8% (~6.6% DPS increase), while two increases it to ~83.3% (~14.1% DPS increase):

Spoiler

[B]One Eth Rune (-25% Target Defence)[/B]
  [1981*0.25] = 495

     1981-495 = 1486

Chance-to-hit = 100 *  80/165 * 2 * 6034/(6034+1486)
              = 100 * 160/165 * 6034/7520
              ~ 77.8%

[B]Two Eth Runes (-50% Target Defence)[/B]
   [1981*0.5] = 990

     1981-990 = 991

Chance-to-hit = 100 *  80/165 * 2 * 6034/(6034+991)
              = 100 * 160/165 * 6034/7025
              ~ 83.3%

The increase in chance-to-hit with two Eth Runes corresponds to your figures, so you may have performed a similar calculation having reduced the Amazon to level 80... but if you're still doubling the effectiveness of one Eth Rune based on 'purely random numbers' (quoting this post again), you should either stop it, halve it or make it clear when you're referring to the effect of two Eth Runes.

You also forgot to account for, as I mentioned before, the increase in procrate of Amp, which will give you 2-300% damage, proccing 7.2% more often, which factors into your total DPS advantage with Eth.

That's true when comparing increased chance-to-hit to increased damage, but not when comparing attack rate and chance-to-hit since increasing attack rate will also increase cast rate: increased attack rate with lower chance-to-hit may result in higher cast rate than lower attack rate with increased chance-to-hit, or vice versa (it depends which results in a higher increase).

tldr: there isnt a one-size-fits-all best answer for what to socket in WWS At least not in real-world terms, though on paper you can find a superior though unrealistically-expensive setup.

Agreed, although it does reopen the Shael vs Eth debate, which does not involve an unrealistically-expensive set-up.

Since attack rate is dependent on IAS and number of arrows, and the two bugged breakpoints aren't straightforward, I'd advise anyone interested in doing so to at least consult the tables on the Amazon Basin wiki's Strafe page.

 

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I'm a bit too tired to work out the math, so could someone work it out for me? I'd really like to know the answer.

170% Upped Witchwild String (2 open sockets)

2 Zon Tiara/20 Res/30 FRW/Stats Circlet (40/15)
'Fortitude' Anything
Nosferatu's Coil
Laying of Hands
War Traveler
The Cat's Eye
Raven Frost (200 AR)
Raven Frost (200 AR)
Annihilus, Hellfire Torch, 16x 3/16/x

I think this is a pretty decent and easy-to-do set-up for any person with a good amount of wealth. Let's assume ~300 Dexterity total, level 85. This Amazon would have around ~8500 attack rating. She currently has 65 IAS.

Mercenary is a lame-o Town Guard, with Might giving an extra 200% skill ED.

Let's also assume the monsters she'll be dealing with are in The Pits/CS, so we're talking ~1600 defence per monster.

Let's compare:
1. ShaelShael (and the superior choice, 40/fervor x2)
2. Plain 40% x2 (and the superior choice, 40/vermillion x2)
3. EthEth

Which generates the best overall DPS? Ready... go!

(Please? And thanks? It'll be good for future discussion on this forum.)

[edit] And never mind the fact that with this much wealth 'Faith' is easily afforded.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

First, what level is Strafe? This affects +% Damage (5*slvl) and minimum arrows (min (2 + [slvl/4], 10)), the latter of which affects attack rate against < 10 targets. Level 7 (1+6) applies +35% Damage, minimum 3 arrows and maximum 10 (>= 10 targets); level 26 (20+6) applies +130% Damage and minimum 8 arrows; level 28 (add two Fletcher's Grand Charms) applies +140% Damage and minimum 9 arrows, always maximising attack rate against < 10 targets (and coming close to it against >= 10).

Second, what you socket in the bow can change what you equip elsewhere. If two Shael Runes are socketed, this results in 105 IAS which increases attack rate with Multiple Shot and Guided Arrow from 9 to 8 frames; however, if you're only interested in Strafe then only 86 IAS is needed, so 19 IAS is redundant and you can switch Nosferatu's Coil for Razortail, which should allow you to achieve 100% Pierce (and adds 10 Maximum Damage).

Further, if two Shael Runes are socketed and you're only interested in Strafe, then 86 IAS can be achieved while equipping Razortail and Atma's Scarab to increase the Chance to Cast Amplify Damage (and apply +20% Attack Rating):

30 IAS Helm (2 Jewels of Fervour or M'avina's True Sight)
20 IAS Gloves (Laying of Hands, Hit Power gloves for Knockback)
40 IAS Bow (2 Shael Runes)

90 Total

At the very least, Strafe level needs to be specified before any comparisons can be made.

 

[omgwtfbbqpwned]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

1. Level 26 and level 28 comparisons would be okay? =D

2. I realized that, but I just wanted standardized equipment. Do the comparison (if you're up for it! ) with ShaelShael Razortail vs nonShaelShael Nosferatu's, but I think it's better to just leave in The Cat's Eye as the amulet.

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I'll only be comparing level 26 and 28 Strafe and two Shael Runes vs two Eth Runes, although damage is calculated below:

Spoiler

WEAPON DAMAGE           MIN   MAX
---------------------------------
Base                     33    40
+170% Enhanced Damage    89   108
+ Min/Maximum Damage    +15   +73   
---------------------------------
TOTAL                   104   181


+% DAMAGE
-----------------------
300 Dexterity       300
Level 28 Strafe     140
Level 17 Might      200
Helm (Ruby Jewel)    40
Fortitude armour    300
-----------------------
TOTAL              +980%

This results in 1,123.2-1954.8 (1,539 average) physical damage, plus 30-90 (60 average) cold damage from the two Raven Frost Rings; adding Laying of Hands' +350% Damage to Demons results in 1,487.2-2588.3 (2,037.75 average) physical damage to Demons.

UPDATE 21 FEBRUARY 2012 Of course, Strafe only applies 75% weapon damage so this is reduced to 1,154.25 average physical damage and 45 cold damage, and with Laying of Hands ~1,528 average physical damage to Demons (physical damage above would correspond to that of level 29 Guided Arrow).

Bone Warriors and Devilkin Shamans in the Pit have 1,651 defence in Ladder and Single Player Hell games, so chance-to-hit at level 85 with 8,500 AR is ~83.7% (100*8500/(8500+1651)).

Two Eth Runes result in ~91.1% (100*8500/(8500+826)) chance-to-hit, increasing DPS by ~8.85% (100*91.1/83.7 ~ 8.85). Two Shael Runes result in the following:

SOCKETS   IAS   BREAPOINT   LEVEL   TARGETS
                                    1     2-8     9       10
---------------------------------------------------------------
Eth        65       5/3/7      26   6     3.75    3.667   3.6
                               28   5.5   3.667   3.667   3.6
---------------------------------------------------------------
Shael     105       4/2/7      26   5.1   3.286   3.125   3.375   
                               28   5     3.125   3.125   3.375

Thus with two Eth Runes against a single target, or in situations where every arrow has to pass through a single target to hit others (as in narrow passages), level 28 is ~9.1% (100*6/5.5 ~ 109.1%) faster than level 26; against 2-8 targets, it's ~2.3% faster.

With two Shael Runes against a single target, level 28 is ~2.2% faster than level 26; against 2-8 targets, it's ~5.1% faster.

At level 26, two Shael Runes are ~17.4% faster than two Eth Runes against a single target, ~14.1% faster against 2-8, ~17.3% faster against 9 but only ~6.7% faster against 10.

At level 28, two Shael Runes are 10% faster than two Eth Runes against a single target, ~17.3% faster against 2-9, but only ~6.7% faster against 10.

So two Eth Runes (~8.85% DPS increase) only result in higher DPS against 10 (or more) targets (~6.7% DPS increase), although this assumes multiple arrows don't pass through the same target while Next Delay is active. This doesn't take into account Razortail, but you could conceivably wear that while still reaching the 5/3/7 breakpoint.

 

[Hipster Ariel]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Very interesting data. Thank you sir!

 

[rafquad]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

@onderduiker: Hey there, sorry to drop by in the middle of the discussion, but I'm playing a WWS Strafer myself and I'm *very* interested in knowing what bp to aim for with her. Right now I have 105% IAS, hitting the 90% bp for Strafe and the 105% one for Multiple Shot, which I also use.

I checked the tables you pointed us at, and if I understood it correctly, one conclusion is that, at 7 arrows (slvl20-23 Strafe), EIAS 50 (reached with 90 IAS for a 0 speed Bow like SSB/Diamond) and EIAS 58 (reached with 115 IAS for the same bow) are exactly the same speed for both single and multiple targets. Correct?

What I didn't understand is: Should we go for 90% ias for the 50 EIAS bp, or should we use *less* speed? What's up with all the posts I'm reading around this boards saying "you don't need IAS for Strafe", "WF has all the IAS you need without any other gear or Faith Merc", etc?

If you could clarify that it would be great Thanks a lot!

 

[onderduiker]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I checked the tables you pointed us at, and if I understood it correctly, one conclusion is that, at 7 arrows (slvl20-23 Strafe), EIAS 50 (reached with 90 IAS for a 0 speed Bow like SSB/Diamond) and EIAS 58 (reached with 115 IAS for the same bow) are exactly the same speed for both single and multiple targets. Correct?

Experimentally, there was no difference in attack rate between level 20-23 Strafe (7 arrows minimum) at 50 EIAS (86 IAS) and 58 EIAS (113 IAS) against < 8 targets (reason unknown). However, 10 arrows maximum are fired, so they differ against 8-10 targets.

What I didn't understand is: Should we go for 90% ias for the 50 EIAS bp, or should we use *less* speed? What's up with all the posts I'm reading around this boards saying "you don't need IAS for Strafe", "WF has all the IAS you need without any other gear or Faith Merc", etc?

If you use Multiple Shot as well, then I'd stick with 105 IAS to reach its 8 frame breakpoint (12.5% increase in attack rate on 9 frames) and Strafe's 86 IAS breakpoint: depending on the number of arrows fired per volley, Strafe's 113 IAS breakpoint can actually be slower, so it's not necessarily worth reaching. However, a definitive answer can't be given since damage and chance-to-hit might have been sacrificed to achieve 105 IAS which actually result in less damage per second (and slower cast rate of Amplify Damage if chance-to-hit has been sacrificed).

The important point is that attack rate at 86 IAS is always faster than slower Strafe breakpoints (and 113 IAS is always equal or greater to those as well), so there's no need to avoid either when seeking faster attack rate with other Bow and Crossbow Skills (although again, it's possible to make false economies by sacrificing damage and chance-to-hit).

Strafe does receive less benefit from increasing its attack rate than other Bow and Crossbow Skills as the number of arrows per volley increases. Once the interval between arrows is 3 frames, any further improvement in attack rate is considered marginal.

Windforce Hydra Bow and other weapon speed 10 bows have 7|4|12 base attack length, which 20 IAS on Windforce alone increases to 6|3|10 (0 EIAS): difference in length of a single 10 arrow volley is between 51 (7+(4*8)+12) frames and 40 (6+(3*8)+10) frames, an attack rate increase of 27.5% (51/40).

Minimum attack length is 4|3|6 (58 EIAS) server-side, so the difference in length of a single 10 arrow volley is then between 40 and 34 (4+(3*8)+6) frames, only ~17.6% faster (40/34). Reaching the 0 EIAS breakpoint only required 11 IAS, but 58 EIAS requires 157 IAS (137 more IAS with Windforce): that's a lot more IAS for a smaller improvement.

When fired continuously, the difference is actually between 4 (40/10) and 3.25 (26/8) frames per arrow, which at ~23% increase (4/3.25) is better but still not great when compared to skills like Multiple Shot: going from 13 to 8 frames with the same additional IAS (baseline is Windforce with 20 IAS) results in 62.5% faster (13/8) attack rate; even going from 13 to just 11 frames is ~18.2% faster, and only requires 17 EIAS (35 IAS, or just 15 more IAS with Windforce).

 

[mysticc]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

Yes, I upped it. First thing I did. WWS still does less damage.

I vouch this. I tried not too long ago this ladder season... like 1-2 weeks ago... since I found a perfect WWS. I up'd it, and it sucks. Maybe bows just suck period, but nothing compares to a good old windforce + faith merc or faith with pride merc (I would love to know which is definitively better between these two options)

 

[zaphodbrx]

Re: WitchWild String Sockets?

I vouch this. I tried not too long ago this ladder season... like 1-2 weeks ago... since I found a perfect WWS. I up'd it, and it sucks. Maybe bows just suck period, but nothing compares to a good old windforce + faith merc or faith with pride merc (I would love to know which is definitively better between these two options)

WWS sucks period.
The deadly strike is not much considering that zons have like 70%+ critical strike already. And amp can be gotten from Atma's scarab, or even a plain reaper on merc for decrep. Brand bow also gives amp I think.
It is maybe a sort of compromise for poorer folks but in that case it is simply better to give up on strafe and go FA/EA with +skills bow