Tournaments: How to increase participation?

[Grisu]

@Nona I know what you mean. When I did my first tournaments I was like "how do they do THAT!?!". @jiansonz's guide to untwinked MF helped a lot though and I have had it bookmarked for the last 14 years

@HanShotFirst Vang's In Training tournament had great opportunities for roleplaying, but unfortunately didn't draw much attention...I think something along the lines of @LiquidEvil's Vanity Challenge would be a blast to repeat - you've been a part of it anyways, IIRC?

I have to say, that in general I found tournament participation much better than in the last few years on the old site. And I can completely relate to everyone about the age and time issue. 15 years ago, I was like: study or D2? Hmmm...I guess D2! Now it is like: Kids, wife, friends, work, parents, housework, finances or D2? And with an untwinked single pass character needing 130 hours to finish, I can totally understand that other people rather find 5 Zods in those 130 hours.

But I think that the abolition of single pass requirement really opens up lots of possibilities for those who want to play more casually in a tournament and invest less time. So maybe give it a try?

Completely nuts idea: What about a D2 SPF podcast? I like the format and you can listen to it while playing D2...Back in the day Elly and Rush had a podcast, as far as I remember? Something like episode 1, guest maxicek: "So, what's the business about this Single Player Forum of yours?" Then some episodes on tournaments and gaming tips, build discussions, patch discussions etc.

 

[Vang]

@Grisu I would be down for helping/assisting/doing a podcast to do updates on all things D2/D4 related with and stuff since I'm writing for the site. I could ask Rush (though I know nothing about podcasting).

I was actually thinking it would be fun to run a Tournament of Tournaments. Just your blast from the past and go (I think it was done before?)

@HanShotFirst Grisu linked though one I hosted, was it too many restrictions, to complex, or a combination of something?

Part of the reason I didn't do a big write-up for the Weapons of the Commoner and Blessing of the King (left it to basically a paragraph) was because interest was lack luster in previous one that I did a big write up in.

 

[Vildecor]

Completely nuts idea: What about a D2 SPF podcast? I like the format and you can listen to it while playing D2...Back in the day Elly and Rush had a podcast, as far as I remember? Something like episode 1, guest maxicek: "So, what's the business about this Single Player Forum of yours?" Then some episodes on tournaments and gaming tips, build discussions, patch discussions etc.

@Grisu I would be down for helping/assisting/doing a podcast to do updates on all things D2/D4 related with and stuff since I'm writing for the site. I could ask Rush (though I know nothing about podcasting).

I also love the idea of having an SPF podcast. I could help out as well. I've done a bit of sound mixing back in the day when I was part of a cover band. I think having two (or more) hosts would be ideal to have a more conversational tone, and probably a monthly release schedule. Topics/segments could include D2 news, thread of the month, and (from Grisu's suggestions) build discussions, tournament round-ups, and gaming tips. Each episode should also include a guest interview from among the SPF or elsewhere in the D2 community.

The changes coming with the 2.4 patch (I think) are exciting enough to probably increase activity, and I would love to see a podcast by and for the SPF to talk about all things D2. Let's make it happen!

 

[D4di56lu3]

I love the idea of a “I think it was done before” tornament! Far too many tournaments I have missed out on.
Though a progress table would be quite nuts/hilarious depending on your code fu. Less of a contest and more of a shared nostalgia trip of favored tourneys.

 

[Kartongen]

I feel we need a good way to separate "mf/rf type" type tournaments and "restrictive guardian" type tournaments. Cause I think those two need different things to attract participants, and attract different people.

The "restrictive guardian" type things are probably right up my alley, but there are a few things keeping me away.
1: hardcore only is a no for me. I am fine with the character being out on death, but losing it and all gear for purposes outside the tournament is something I dislike. I understand where the rule comes from, but I like a gentleman agreement/trust system more. Glad to see that many tournaments lately are "hc/sc, out on death" instead.
2: Forced single-pass means I cant play unless I have "clearly enough time for the next checkpoint" (unless you leave computer on). This just does not work for me right now. Glad to see this is often optional in recent tournaments.
3. Currently a lack of time.

So for me, the recent changes/relaxation done to them is enough, but I will focus on my septs a little before I dive in to one (unless the one shows up).
One thing I might dislike is tournaments which basically make letting your merc do all the killing the "only" logical move. I wanna be the hero. Iirc the orange tournament, as well as the super unique tournament on the old forums, (in short: only gear dropped from SU are usable) were to nice way of addressing that.

That podcast idea sounds very interesting. I would listen for sure.

 

[Cattleya]

A third thing is that there are so many incredibly good players with a lot of wealth and knowledge of the game here at the SPF. It's one of the best things about it but some way to equalize that would encourage me more to participate. I will never achieve run times like the fastest forum members here.

This actually reminded me of something:

While my memory is fuzzy, I remember a long time ago there was a tournament where the main challenge was to get various screenshots. The host would periodically toss out a bounty/theme and the goal was to get the "best" screenshot that fit the criteria. I think we were all leveling new characters for that particular tournament, but it could be pretty easily adapted to allow people to post them from any character since the real fun is the creativity on how people set up their screenshots.

It could even be done as a weekly ongoing thing so people could participate in weeks they had time (or felt inspired by the theme.)

 

[coju]

[2011] The 12 Labors Tournament [by Quickdeath]

DISCLAIMER: Please do NOT post in this thread yet. We still need to migrate all posts from the old thread on diabloii.net to this thread. If you want to help, feel free to do so :) This tournament has already ended. It was originally started by @Quickdeath on May 2, 2011. The last post was...

www.purediablo.com

That was a tournament I lurked in. Made it to the Glacial Trail Trial. So, I didn't make it very far! What I liked about that one was the harsh, but 'basic' rules, and utilization of areas not used/done often.

 

[HanShotFirst]

@HanShotFirst Vang's In Training tournament had great opportunities for roleplaying, but unfortunately didn't draw much attention...I think something along the lines of @LiquidEvil's Vanity Challenge would be a blast to repeat - you've been a part of it anyways, IIRC?

Yep. I was there . And it was good fun . *Wanders off and gets lost in the nostalgia of that old thread.*

And I'm back.

@HanShotFirst Grisu linked though one I hosted, was it too many restrictions, too complex, or a combination of something?

No. Nothing of the sort.

I hope I didn't offend people by creating the impression that if I didn't join their tournament I must have felt that there was something deficient ...

That's not the case.

The 'In Training tournament' launched when I was in the midst of running 1.11b LK for the runes for an Enigma for the Hammerdin that I would later create and take to clvl 99. So, for me, it was just other priorities.

So, I guess, if I was to map out my decision making process when it comes to whether or not to join a tournament it would look like:

Do I have other priorities? If no --> Am I currently more concerned about yeild? As @ffs so nicely explained:

How people choose to spend limited gaming time. Spending 10-20 hours in D2 can mean either (1) getting another character who beat the game, however difficult or interesting it was to do that, or (2) getting 10+ high runes or something like Griffon's, DFathom or DWeb, charms, crafts.... As the player base grows older, adult life, jobs, often families etc, my impression is there's just a tendency to go with option (2) and get something "more useful" out of the valuable time spent on the game.

If no --> Okay. Pitch me a tournament idea with a neat story .

 

[Vang]

@HanShotFirst No, I didn't take it that way. So, if there was time you were game, cool. I was more seeing if that was something you would join had you had no other priorities.

This thread was created to garner more interest in the SPF as well. I've gone to notice, in discord as well, that communities come and go. Heck a few of us disappeared for a while (myself included) but came back.

@Kartongen I'm going to make sure it is separate. They appeal to totally different playstyles and time commitments.

@Cattleya I don't remember if I participated, but I remember it.

 

[Arjan]

I tried to remedy that with my Apprehensive Adventurer tournament by making it SC and points. If you farmed enough, you could take first pretty effectively. Though I will admit, the item/town restrictions turned people off.

With that said, Arjan you mentioned to participate for anything more than just fun of it. How could we expand?

I have a master's in mental health and worked with kids for a couple of years, so I totally understand reward structure, time management, and the need to have a purpose in doing something:

Generally, I asked myself questions before partaking in anything not just D2:

What is the purpose of my activity? Usually to have fun, better myself/family, sense of accomplishment etc.
Does the above activity fill a need or want? If Yes, continue, if no well think of something else.
And lastly which @ffs pointed out: Could I be doing something more enjoyable to fill that time to achieve the first question and not feel I wasted time? (In the case of D2 as pointed out: I can get some cool HRs/grailers or I can maybe get a tournament character all the way to Act5 NM investing all that time, not finding anything and biting the dust, option 1 please!) Additionally, you now know why you have a pile of laundry to do,

@D2DC Going to work on getting a unified tournament rules together to make those happen!

Thanks to the added replies!

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly. Fun is, without a doubt my main reason to play D2. And every minute I play the game I enjoy myself. The thrill of finding cool new items, to find that item that makes one of your other characters that much better, or to try and see how far you can get your HC character leveled before dying (Mephisto for me... two times).

The thing is, I have some sense of competition in me. Joining an event is fun, but doesn't stay fun (for me at least) if you don't have at least a chance to achieve some sort of goal or participate with the rest.

Maybe it's just that being new on the SPF makes it harder to start playing events. Seeing the hours some clock in the TC84-event is (again to me) insane. So, there goes that event. The single death ones are out too because I need to push myself beyond the limits of fun. Most events I have seen so far have rules that make it more fun for the people who know this game by heart and need an extra element to make it more of a challenge... for me the challenge is in getting my characters through hell on it's own. I don't need much more challenge then that

And maybe I'm just not an event player for D2. I still see plenty of fun things to do, like getting a sept with the top sets for each class. Or making every possible runeword. Or finding the grails. And to be honost, the SPF makes playing D2 even more fun because you can share your characters, ask your questions and read about everyone elses adventures and that's just fine.

 

[lizard]

Sorry, I expressed myself poorly. Fun is, without a doubt my main reason to play D2. And every minute I play the game I enjoy myself. The thrill of finding cool new items, to find that item that makes one of your other characters that much better, or to try and see how far you can get your HC character leveled before dying (Mephisto for me... two times).

Maybe the forum needs a Quest for Guardian thread to share progress through the acts and occasional finds, etc. I know i would share my progress and inevitable deeds.

 

[Vang]

Maybe the forum needs a Quest for Guardian thread to share progress through the acts and occasional finds, etc. I know i would share my progress and inevitable deeds.

That is a fantastic IDEA! I'm doing a guardian now twinked that failed in the last tournament (March) but I really dig the new changes on PTR for Druid fire elemental and have to wait until I guardian to talk about him. (Or start my own thread like a few have on progress)

Updated with a thread:

SPF Quest for Guardians in Progress thread

Are you working on a Guardian and want to share the trials and tribulations that you have encountered? Did you bite the dust and want some advice before getting back up? You have come to the right place. This is a dedicated threat to making your Guardian or Septivium dreams come true. Ask...

www.purediablo.com

 

[Arjan]

That is a fantastic IDEA! I'm doing a guardian now twinked that failed in the last tournament (March) but I really dig the new changes on PTR for Druid fire elemental and have to wait until I guardian to talk about him. (Or start my own thread like a few have on progress)

Updated with a thread:

SPF Quest for Guardians in Progress thread

Are you working on a Guardian and want to share the trials and tribulations that you have encountered? Did you bite the dust and want some advice before getting back up? You have come to the right place. This is a dedicated threat to making your Guardian or Septivium dreams come true. Ask...

www.purediablo.com

Is that a HC only thread? Because I’d like to get some advise on my holy freeze pally that’s part of my sc sept.

 

[maxicek]

@Cattleya That sounds like one of Atil’s tournaments. Or possibly my 12 Days of Christmas tournaments.

@Arjan Just ask in the D2 Lounge or make a new thread. Just expect us to supply you with five pages of suggestions

 

[Vang]

What are general thoughts about S&E in tournaments. I know they are shunned, but really outside of normal how often do they apply?

In most games on normal I die without a S&E because I got trapped and you can see the death ahead of time. In most late NM/Hell there isn't even a chance to do that as your already dead by the time you process it. Would this be an option to include (maybe as mentioned on the "easier tournament track")

 

[Pb_pal]

A bit late to the party (what else is new?) but I'll echo the sentiments of others. I'm probably re-hashing a bunch that has been said, but I've never let that stop me before!

--

As someone who has participated in a whole pile of tournaments, and hosted my fair share as well, the main thing that is preventing me from joining them now is:

TIME.

I just don't have the big playtime blocks that I used to have to make significant progress in a reasonable amount of time. I think this is reflected in general pretty much across the SPF now, just looking at the level and style of interaction vs 'the old days'.

Over the last few years, something that I've noticed that people have been very much open to in tournaments is the removal of single-pass requirement. I believe this is due to the problem I stated above, where people can't commit the time to get to the next easy 'checkpoint' of the game that doesn't require backtracking or running wildly through previously cleared areas.

Even in the more recent tournaments, most people aren't doing committed re-running. Still, not having to worry about re-clearing, let's say, a portion of the jungles to get to the Kurast cities without risking disqualification has been a positive change over how we used to run tournaments (a more "purist" way).

I think your suggestion of removing the 'no S+E' hard line would be a similar improvement to adapt to the new meta of tournamenting. A big barrier for people joining tournaments has also historically been about pumping all these hours into a character/journey/all the writeups, just to have a Gloam come along and fry them from offscreen, even if they 'save' the character by S+E before they literally die.

Is that off-screen Gloam-frying part of the fun? For me, yes. For some others, I think it keeps them from joining in the first place. I'm not sure if I'm in the minority here or not, but if someone reaches Guardian, the fact that they may have S+E to save themselves a couple times makes it no less impressive, especially in a tournament setting.

I think the path forward to having more participation in tournaments has to be in these types of directions. Removing the small yet stringent requirements like that from the rules, but leaving them as a personal rule which you can still enact if you desire. This can even be reflected in progress tables, similar to how we've integrated single pass (SP) into a column in recent tournaments, or Extended Stash in the UT99er thread.

 

[d2lover]

What are your opinions on save&exit on sight of dangerous mobs?

Like at extreme, s&e on the sight of a single moonlord

and more normal: s&e if you see fana or conv

also, is the fire enchantment bug fixed in legacy nightmare, what about d2r?

 

[Pb_pal]

I mean there is some precedence in that re-rolling Ancients is a thing that has been consistently done. Sure, it's a bit of a special case, but still.

Personally, I think rerolling regular monster spawns (ie. rerolling upon seeing Moon Lords in an area) is a bit cheesy, though since re-running is usually allowed nowadays (ie. no single-pass rule) it kind of allows that by default regardless. Also, as previously stated, doing so would not diminish from reaching Guardian at all in my book.

I think if we were to remove the 'no S+E to avoid death', that would naturally extend to extremely dangerous mods, especially if they block your progress. It's not really that much different than leading them to the end of a corridor, TP-parking them, and continuing on from the WP.

Don't quote me, but I think the FE-bug is fixed now in legacy? Somebody else is probably better to confirm that though.

 

[Vildecor]

also, is the fire enchantment bug fixed in legacy nightmare, what about d2r?

Don't quote me, but I think the FE-bug is fixed now in legacy? Somebody else is probably better to confirm that though.

In legacy, the FE bug still exists in NM. It's not that noticeable unless you play on higher player settings and is really only dangerous with mobs that have lots of life -- mainly Geleb Flamefinger in Travincal and the Ancients.

 

[d2lover]

In legacy, the FE bug still exists in NM. It's not that noticeable unless you play on higher player settings and is really only dangerous with mobs that have lots of life -- mainly Geleb Flamefinger in Travincal and the Ancients.

then I had real luck on my Freezerdin haha

I think I had it blocked multiple times with my shield (random FE mobs)