GA even with semi-prebuffed Enchant will deal ~ 150 damage after PvP penalty and max resist, which will make for some pretty slow killing between the crappy attack speed and highly accessible semi-hard counter (minions). My assassin uses GA with Venom pretty often, and it's only effective when people are skimping on resists and don't have access to minions. (She can kill stuff that can't catch her, but it's just a really, really extended fight.) A bit of OW thrown in there does wonders, but it's still not very fast by any stretch. Not saying you can't try it, of course.
Absorb isn't something people put on unless they are really struggling for the most part. Cold Absorb is most common by far just because people like Raven Frost for its other nice things.
12k is enough for Fire Ball. There's probably some sickos around here with almost twice as much, but it's not necessary. Blizzard needs a lot more than 2k though. (...like 4x more, at least.) That thing is really hard to hit, and Raven Frost is pretty much everywhere.
PvP forum is a nice start, but beware battle.net and/or kind of outdated stuff. If you find something nice, smart guys here like froz/Gripp/max/etc. can probably help tune things to your wealth/needs though. (We can help with providing items as well.)
As for absorb, Ravenfrosts are pretty much everywhere. Wisp Projector is just fantastic ring to use sometimes with oak minion charges and lite absorb. Very handy against trappers and javazons. Don't know does anyone use anything to absorb fire.
So, pretty much only Raven and Wisp are common absorb items, other are rarely used and very situational.
The lower you go with levels, less builds become viable for pvp and gear plays much bigger difference there. Even 30 is extremely restrictive in terms of what builds are even viable, and gear plays big role, much bigger than in high level. Even if you don't need high runes for LLD, I'd say gear is much harder to get and building good character isn't easy at all.
Considering the debate about resistances and absorbs, I would like to provide some food for thought by listing resists and absorbs as they are used within GM rules used by Polish community. They usually make very balanced rules.
Here they are:
1. maximum of 85% max res or 80% max + 20% absorb,
2. allowed 90% max fire res,
3. two Ravens are allowed, if stack cold res is 80 and less (80 over 75 in hell, i. e. 255 total and less),
4. Thundergod's Vigor is allowed.
If you were interested, I can post their complete GM rules. They are more detailed though, so if you want to keep the rules as simple as possible, it probably won't be any good.
My thoughts: 80%max + 20% sorb is basically 88% after first hit, I'd say 90%max or 80%max+20% absorb looks more coherent (even if in the first it is basically 84%, considering the life pools of most of the characters, the first hit isn't huge - exception blizzard).
Thundergod's being allowed doesn't shock me in the 85% max res or 80%max+20% absorb scenarios (from quick math is basically having near 90% versus a trapper) but it would in a 90% max lite res scenario, so I guess that's why they decided for 85% max res (90% for fire). (this makes me think that their rules were smartly crafted!)
How do they control poison damage? Since there's no sorb, 85%max res seems low depending on the limits on PLR (and since Hell already has +100PLR...).
About the dual Ravens, I'm divided. But it seems a good compromise to limit one CM point builds but not full CM points builds. It does make Hurricane completely lolish.
Overall it's very very similar to what I was thinking.
As I understand the rules about resists and absorbs, there are many things to be considered when doing mathematical equations. For example the available items with resists and absorbs, their possible combinations etc. Regarding the absence of rules about -PLR, I think it's because poison classess/builds are generally considered to be 2nd tier, not being a threat to the cookie cutters. Hurricane isn't a big damage dealer in PvP and in most cases other ring than Raven would be better anyway.
Saying all this and being aware of the big Polish PvP community, with their many skilled and knowledgeable players, I have full confidence in Polish rules. Of course there are many more other rules, which provide a good and balanced gameplay. So let this be an inspiration. Here are the GM rules taken from d2trade.pl, translated to the best of my ability:
1. Main rules:
1. Using any 3rd party software is prohibited (hacks, mods).
2. All games are played at the hell difficulty.
3. Only Oak Sage is allowed from charges on items.
4. Mana potions are allowed (except for the ES sorceress).
5. Duel starts when both players/teams say "GO".
6. Only Venom and ES are allowed to be precasted from stash.
7. Other skills (BO, Fade, etc.) can be precasted with the help of the horadric cube in the inventory (no returning to the stash).
8. 33 replenish life max.
9. Putting mana potions at the entrance to the city is allowed.
10. 451 poison damage from charms max.
11. 35% of slow max.
12. 10% of slow max against the Amazon.
13. No mercenary.
14. No shrines/wells.
15. Other potions than mana ones are prohibited.
16. Constant retreating in duels is not allowed.
17. Using tokens during tournaments is prohibited.
2. Absorbs/resists:
1. Maximum of 85% max res or 80% max + 20% absorb. 2. Allowed 90% max fire res. 3. Two Ravens are allowed, if stack cold res is 80 and less (80 over 75 in hell, i. e. 255 total and less). 4. Thundergod's Vigor is allowed.
3. Class specific rules:
Necromancer:
- bone wall/prison, revives, skeletons and curses other than amplify/lower resist are not allowed.
Assassin:
- c/c assassin can't use more than 5% max resist and can't use any absorb items, with the exception of 1 Raven.
Paladin:
- Holy Freeze is not allowed, with the exception of specific duels: smiter vs barbarian and smiter vs smiter,
- auras regenerating life are not allowed (Meditation, Cleansing, Prayer),
- auras providing max res are allowed, but they have to be within max res rules,
- gameplay with hammerdin using constant charge lag is prohibited.
Druid:
- cyclone armour is not considered as absorb,
- recasting CA is allowed.
Amazon:
- slow missiles is not allowed,
- 10% slow max,
- 10% slow max against the Amazon.
Sorceress:
- ES sorc can't use any max res or absorb, mana potions or oak charges,
- ES sorc can use 27 replenish life max,
- allowed 20 mdr and 20 dr (single points, not percentages) max,
- Nightwing's Veil is allowed, although it has absorb.
Banned items:
- Doom (allowed against classes who don't use IAS),
- Blackoak Shield,
- The Rising Sun,
- Griswolds Helm (allowed for Paladin using the complete set).
I personally think it's best to limit prebuff items from stash (one) than helping some builds and not others. Sins can use help for venom and sorcs for ES but an hybrid zon can't use stash for CtA, it doesn't make sense in my opinion.
It's easy to see that they only want to allow from stash skills that have heavily-ish invested hard points anyway, but allowing up to memory staff, amulet, circlet, 2 beta rings, ormus' and 10 skillers (and equivalent for venom) but not a single item for BO, Fade, etc... doesn't seem a good way to balance the duels.
Other than that I'd just add some older version items to the banned items list. And recasting CA versus some builds seems OP to me.
Maybe it wasn't clear with the precast items so I'll try to be more specific. You can carry precast items in the cube in your inventory, i. e. 4x3 tiles worth of items at the cost of 2x2 tiles, but you have to keep it there without going back to stash. For example, an Amazon can carry CtA, Arach, two rings and an amulet in the cube to precast BO, at the cost of 2x2 tiles worth of charms. She can freely use the items from the cube, but she has to carry the cube - not to visit the stash. Barbarians can carry there their BO sticks, 3 wc amulet and so forth. I think it's balanced because, for example, BO is much more game breaking than Venom or ES.
Anyway, rules here may differ because of some items from previous versions, absence of Annihilus and Torch, etc. I have no experience dueling in SP, so I count on you guys. I will play under any rules this community has decided or will decide upon. I won't be pushing for any rules, unless asked to. I posted those rules, so they might be an inspiration in some points and because I'm confident in them.
Those rules are too complicated. I mean, idea of balancing duels is nice, I'm looking forward to it too, but having tons of rules is mainly repulsive for any new player to join in. It's very repulsive to me too, and I'm no new player in PvP world. In PvM player has no rules at all, and now he wants to join PvP where he has 50 rules of this and that to study. It's hard enough to get used to PvP without complicated rules that make things even harder.
3. Only Oak Sage is allowed from charges on items.
Why only Oak Sage? Sometimes if I use all my Oak charges on my Wisp Projector ring, I use other spirit charges there. Other spirits are pretty much useless, they are only minion stack for eating projectiles. So, I see zero reasons to limit charges only to Oak. Crescent Moon has wolf charges which is great for some sorc. Why not use them, why is Oak so special to be only charge allowed to use? Makes no sense.
I never saw some reasoning in this rule to limit replenish life. I use much more replenish life on my LLD characters and in LLD that is not imba at all. So why is that bad thing to do in HLD duels where replenish means 10 times less than in LLD? Should I count my replenish on equipment from rings etc.? This rule is especially funny since they clearly stated that using Prayer is not allowed. Even 50 replenish won't really help you in HLD, I mean cmon now. Is he planning to run away for several minutes to regen or what? He can. TP to Travincal or whatever. ES sorc can do the same thing against non-ow non-poison character and she will regen much faster and be much harder to kill.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but Amazon is not the only character who suffer from mass slow. What about assassins? Kickers don't suffer great penalty from mass slow? Or some hybrid sin?
I like first rule, my personal upper limit is 85% res I rarely use anyway. However, I don't quite understand why is fire res that special to have special limit. Is it because of those 15 max fire res boots so that you can allow them to use this way? 90% max fire res totally ruins fire druid, making him useless. It cripples fire sorc too, actually this totally supports very defensive playing style. If fire sorc can hardly hurt you, she will naturally play super turtle game making it uninteresting for both sides. 85% max for fire too as upper limit, don't make that resist special because of one item.
3. Two Ravens are allowed, if stack cold res is 80 and less (80 over 75 in hell, i. e. 255 total and less).
Two Ravens always allowed, it's very cheap and effective way for new player to get nice and for some characters very needed attack rating. Every cold sorc uses over -200 cold res mastery, so dual Raven is not too strong. Blizzard sorc will one kill you no matter your ravens, unless you have gigantic life. Actually, even against FO sorc two Ravens are pretty much needed. I played with one Raven against some FO sorc and she hurt like hell even then. This is however not true for huge life characters such as barbs, they can go with single Raven.
Now, mentioned Hurricane of druid.
Windy uses maxed Hurricane. Let's assume 5k tornado damage and 2300 Hurricane damage. Tornado has 25 frames next delay, however every 15 frames it deals another portion of damage which is then unblockable. Let's take 1 second of damage into consideration with druid who has 99 fcr (11 frames cast rate).
Hurricane deals 97 damage againt 75 cold res opponent every 20 frames, so it will hit once in that second.
Tornado will deal damage immediately after it is casted, and action frame of druid is 7 with that fcr. So, after 7 frames tornado will deal 850 damage. 15 frames periodic damage follows at frame 22 so that tornado will hit again with another 850 damage. However, at frame 18 druid will finish casting another tornado so new tornado will again hit the target with 850 damage.
Total damage of Hurricane in a second: 97
Total damage of Tornado in a second: 2550
% damage dealt with Hurricane compared to Tornado: 3.8%
However, let's assume opponent has 50% DR. Total Tornado damage then is 1275
% damage dealt with Hurricane compared to Tornado against 50% DR: 7.6%
Now let's assume opponent has max block AND 50% DR. Now first and second Tornado cast can be blocked, however periodic damage is unblockable. Total damage of Tornado then is: 425 + 106 + 106 = 637
% damage dealt with Hurricane compared to Tornado against 50% DR and max block: 15.2%
Now let's assume opponent uses one Ravenfrost which is fine, he will have 20% absorb reducing 40% of incoming cold damage. Hurricane will do total of: 58 damage
% damage dealt with Hurricane compared to Tornado against 50/75 + Raven: 9.1%
If we include one Raven from the start at previous calculations, then against non DR non block Hurricane will do 2.3% damage
Against 50% dr and non block Hurricane will do 4.5% damage.
Now I ask you, is Hurricane REALLY a reason not to use 2 Ravenfrosts? It is at most 9% of total damage done by druid in ideal scenario, and usually it will do less than 5% of total damage. Conclusion is, druid is pretty much equally strong with or without Hurricane, however he won't look so cool and he won't slow those casters who try to run from namelock-tornado combo.
I disagree with this practice because it is very strong anti-trapper belt and in addition really negates damage of hybrid assassin who can totally forget about her traps against Thundergod's Vigor. Also, using this belt contradicts earlier mentioned rule of max of 85% resist or 80 max + 20 absorb. Vigor gives 85 max and integer absorb which is obviously over 85% limit. Again, this totally encourages Trapper to camp in their trap field against you since they will have hard time beating you otherwise.
- gameplay with hammerdin using constant charge lag is prohibited.
Charge lag is so natural thing it doesn't really matter will paladin charge all the times or just sometimes. Whenever he charges, he is invisible for other players, only namelock can "see" him. So there is no point in counting the seconds for how long can you charge or something.
The Rising Sun amulet. I'm not completely sure why to autoban this item every time. It's not imba at all. Against 500 fireball damage sorc it reduces her damage to 352 damage, and those 15 max fire res boots reduce her damage to 294 damage. But those boots are not banned while Rising Sun is. 500 damage is rather weakinsh for fireball sorc. She can easily have 750, and in that case Rising Sun will reduce her damage to 600 while those boots to 441. Even Dwarf Star reduces more damage than Rising Sun, reducing damage to 350 and to 525 in second case.
I would ban Rising Sun against Fire Druid and against Hydra sorc since Hydras are useless against Rising Sun users. However that amulet is not really strong against typical fireball sorc. If we autobann Rising Sun, then I would totally say to autobann Hotspur boots, they are much more imba than Rising Sun against sorcs and very imba against fire druids.
There's only casual PvP now, so just sticking with "use your best judgment" works. It hasn't been a problem for years that someone intentionally overstacks to gimp enemy build unless they just get run over instantly and need it, for example.
Hey Gripphon, I'll try to respond to all of your points. But before that, I would like to add two things. In Poland, the Team vs Team play is preffered to that of 1 on 1. Naturally, the rules tend to be oriented towards TvT. They apply to both though. That would explain a few things. Also, PvP in Poland is played at very competitive level (at least it used to be), with lots of tournaments and so on. Therefore, rules for weaker classess/builds (for example fire claw druid, kick assassin etc.) are often ommited in the rules, as they are played very rarely. They could be covered, but that would mean more rules, which I want to talk about next.
I absolutely agree with your points about the rules, the simpler the better. But there have to be some rules, to balance the game to the point that most of the classess/builds are playable. For example, without any rules, all elemental classess/builds would be unplayable. I think that we all agree to that. I posted the rules as a reaction to the debate about resists/absorbs and because I think they could be helpful. I think they are on the verge to be too detailed/complicated, but still simple enough.
Regarding the Oak charges. That rule is just to keep it simple. Most charges are useless anyway, but some are better prevented, such as Life Tap, that one ruins many duels.
33 replenish life. That one is specific to be able to wear HOTO with Verdungo's. It may seem to be irrelevant, but it really makes a difference, especially for some defensive builds. The longer the duel lasts the more important it is. For example if the duel lasts 5 minutes, 33 rl accounts to almost 1k life. The TvT duels do last longer most of the time, combine that with some Paladin auras and you'll get some very big numbers. But again, that's the Polish trait. RL is limited in most GM rules though.
451 poison damage charm. I can't shade light on this one. I reckon they're bugged or something. In most rules I've seen this is covered though. Be it 1 charm per inventory, some specific number or being completely prohibited.
90% max fire res. That one is against a fire sorceress. In most cases, 85% max res is enough against her, but some classes with low hp can simply be outtanked at that cap. So it is to make more competitive duels and even at 90% max res fire sorcs can hold their own. Against a good fire elemental and fire claws druids you certainly would like to have 85% max res (with some classess anyway) and even if 90% max res cripples them further, they simply are rare builds which aren't covered in most general rules. Also fire elemental druid can effectively use Molten Boulder and Volcano with their physical damage part.
10% slow against the Amazon. Amazon's dodge skills frame duration is affected by slowing (from items but also other sources such as Holy Freeze and being chilled) as if it were attack speed. It can't be influenced in any way, for example by IAS from items. You get the idea.
Retreating. It actualy is exactly about the latter part of your question. Imagine for example ES sorc teleporting away each time she's being hit or any other unsportful/irritating tactics. This is of course quite subjective, but it's covered in most rules in some way. I think I didn't use the most accurate word in this, my bad.
Hurricane is weak in PvP as you've stated and is usually ignored in terms of absorbs/resists. It is so in these rules too and you can freely use 2 Ravens.
Thundergod's Vigor. This is on the verge I agree with you. But because this belt comes at the cost of some really powerful belts such as Verdungo's or Arach, it's usually allowed. Hybrid assassin has also the other part of her offensive arsenal, but as you've stated TGV renders some of her duels uncompetitive. Again, it's quite a rare build and if you wanted to balance her, you'd have to implement a separate rule. Most of the rules tend to not to.
Charge lag. It is specificaly stated for a Hammerdin. Hammerdins are very powerful on their own and if somebody dueled Hammerdin doing charge lag, he knows it's not fun at all (if he doesn't like to lose all the time).
The Rising Sun and Blackoak Shield. I've been always under the impression they're too powerful. Oddly enough, I've never done any calculations regarding these items, as they're banned virtually within every rules.
Nagisa, you've summed it up nicely and accurately.
I still didn't see how can Moulten Boulder be useful. You can't hit anyone with it, no way.
Retreating. It actualy is exactly about the latter part of your question. Imagine for example ES sorc teleporting away each time she's being hit or any other unsportful/irritating tactics. This is of course quite subjective, but it's covered in most rules in some way. I think I didn't use the most accurate word in this, my bad.
Yes, I can imagine that. However, I have no idea how to define what is retreating in PvP and when is it considered as BM according to rules. Even ES sorc has to escape sometimes from battle. Too subjective rule if you ask me, with totally blur definition.
Charge lag. It is specificaly stated for a Hammerdin. Hammerdins are very powerful on their own and if somebody dueled Hammerdin doing charge lag, he knows it's not fun at all (if he doesn't like to lose all the time).
I have experience dueling charging paladins, and they always desynch like crazy, no matter what. Pure Hammerdin... is not strong from my experience. They are smashed by necros, windys and fireball sorcs. Actually, pure Hammer is nowhere strong as some Hammer+Charge or Hammer+FoH combo. They are much greater challenge because they can do something other than hammers, here he relies totally on hammers and he hopes I will do wrong teleport. Even when charging, you can have a feeling where paladin was, and you can simply avoid teleporting to that area. It's either that or I didn't really face good Hammerdin yet since almost no one has one. Even if he does, I would like to see him deal with mentioned characters which are pretty much everywhere.
Since you mentioned those rules are more focused on "strong" characters, they make more sense that way, but since people here do have "weaker" builds, we must have rules to include them too.
Sticking with "use your best judgment" works, indeed. Everyone uses their own rules around here anyway. Maybe that is the best way, no one wants to use rules which they don't agree with. I seem to be somewhat alergic to massive prebuffing, especially that ES sorc thing. I'm in the mood to pick something that can kill that thing and gang on him with someone to force him to repick that thing, or have him killed every round forcing him to prebuff everytime
As much as I hate it, prebuff is fine as long as it doesn't slow down the pace. Joanna used to sit out a duel or two to get her unlimited Fade/broken BO/whatever else up, but that never disrupted things like certain amazons who run back to stash for BO every duel (cough, nulio). Not really something to make a rule over though, obviously.
Don't steal my blue pots and I'll be faster I'll start leaving arrows and pots on the ground to make my trips to town twice as fast
Although I did some medium prebuffing in the past, now I don't like medium or heavy prebuffing. It can make some OP builds even more OP. If it's some lol build I don't see a problem. I believe that one item limit for prebuffing from stash is great to allow BO casting on hybrid builds than don't use CtA on switch and 40 ES on non lightning sorceresses. (I feel that some of these builds don't need the disadvantage of losing two grand charms, plus it looks ugly on inventory) Multi-item buffing from cube in inventory is okay is one chooses to. I'd love to use this rule (and if someone has some lol build can just ask "hey guys, I suck with this char, can I buff it?"
You can always use cube with CtA in it and one arrows, full belt of potions then. Difference in damage is purely mathematical and you will be much faster in prebuffing, you won't have to go to town for several duels, so it is well worth it.
In FFA there is usually no problem with going to stash to prebuff (only sometimes it can make other players wait), but it can be annoying in 1v1 matches which are rarely played anyway.
All I know is I've been pretty annoyed with nulio taking 45 seconds after everyone else is ready in duel after duel on a few occasions (though not recently).
That stuff should be slightly frowned upon unless it's super serious (which it never is).
