The Hole - Mini Mafia game

I don't get how multiple people are saying that no mafia would do what gory did.

Multiple people are saying this because it made him very vulnerable and almost got him lynched yesterday. In the VERY hypothetical situation where Gory and I are partners, why would he go for a save? That just puts a huge target on both our backs, especially if one of us got lynched and flipped mafia. This is a huge stretch to say what Gory did was an action of mafia.

Ah yes, you gave him the noob card. Even though this is his 3rd (at least I know) game. Good work.

Yes Third Game is correct.
Same here. I've read them but feel lost. Need to re read them.

Vote: BipolarChemist

Really? You say that you're lost and have basically barely read them and already made a decision? Nice, Thanks.

That doesn't strike me as someone who felt their vote was justified. That strikes me as seeing an alternative lynch getting close and throwing them under the wheels instead of yourself.

Maybe...

despite the hugely erratic posts he made all day. You took it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter of whether the lynch would happen (time was running out rapidly, there was no guarantee anyone else would show up, and you refused to ensure that the town used our only power), based solely upon your opinion that BPC is a townie, despite the almost ridiculous amount of posts he made that would seem to indicate he's either scum or suicidal.

I was quite obviously just screwing around yesterday. It was Day 1 and it didn't really feel like there needed to be much seriousness going on. The only real information that came out of Day 1 was the information gathered from the last hour of play and the derailed lynch on me. Goryani's actions put himself out there and almost got him lynched, that can't be the move of mafia.

[highlight]all lynches[/highlight] are for information.

This might be just because I'm newer to this, but aren't lynches to kill scum and help town win the game?

In regard to BPC. I've already explained it. See post 131. In regards to BA, you are correct. I hadn't/haven't given my reasoning yet. I don't give explanations for each and every vote. I'm curious to see if anyone agrees with me without me having to explain my thoughts.

I agree with you! Frankly, the just of BPC's posts on Day 1 seemed like playfulness and nothing serious, that can fully be attributed to him just trying to fit in, considering it is only his 3rd freakin game. He seems to also have a bit of a flair for the dramatic, like come on, those 'poems' were kinda funny. I never saw anything scummy about BPC's posts and I feel like the just of the BPC train was based purely on two reasons: Wanting to get in a lynch by the end of the day and reactions to a new player actually attempting to be 'social'.

All in all, assuming you people will take any of what I say seriously, Drixx seems to have to most sketchy looking posts. I don't see any true plays and his comment about "smoke and mirrors" seems, to me, exactly what Drixx is doing.

Vote: Drixx
 
Then show everyone.

You are the one who asserted that neither near lynch contained two mafia. You provided no rationale for this claim, but expected us to trust that your calculations were correct.

@ThunderCat - Lynch me if you like. When I turn up vanilla townie, then what? I'm pushing Gory because Gory keeps making assertions which are either obviously untrue or which he refuses to back up with anything. His "feeling" that BPC was town. His "knowing" about mafia being able to lock either of the lynches since neither near lynch had two mafia in it... if that's true, how does he know that? Why doesn't he give us the information?

And yes, I do find it to be a waste of my time to go back through the thread to try and figure out what Gory swears is there but doesn't seem to be. If you believe him when he claims to know that neither the BPC near lynch nor his own near lynch had two mafia voting already and therefore a mafia could have locked but didn't, don't you want to know how he arrived at that conclusion? It would seem that being able to make that conclusion would bring us very close to narrowing down who is scum, and yet he just makes the assertion and refuses to walk us through it, even when I ask.

In fact, when I asked him to show me since I obviously didn't get it, he responded by telling me to show everyone. How am I meant to prove his assertion when I already said I didn't see it?

And yet you find me to be the scummy one?
 
This is a huge stretch to say what Gory did was an action of mafia.

Mafia make plays all the time to establish themselves as town. All such plays have some level of inherent danger to them. If we suppose that Gory is mafia, his play worked out for him pretty well as he refuses to give any solid answers to anything (including how he can claim to know that there was a mafia member available to lock both lynches that chose not to), and everyone has bought that he's townie because he "put himself at risk". Hogwash.

I was quite obviously just screwing around yesterday. It was Day 1 and it didn't really feel like there needed to be much seriousness going on. The only real information that came out of Day 1 was the information gathered from the last hour of play and the derailed lynch on me. Goryani's actions put himself out there and almost got him lynched, that can't be the move of mafia.

You should read previous mafia games. There are good players on these forums and such plays have been pulled off quite successfully before.

This might be just because I'm newer to this, but aren't lynches to kill scum and help town win the game?

Obviously not, or else all lynches would kill scum. Apart from when the town knows for sure someone is scum (like last game when poor Kestegs was revealed as my only visitor when he killed me night one), the lynch provides information. It provides the players role first and foremost, but it also allows for the evaluation of that player's interactions with other people and inspection of how they voted and how the lynch vote for them unfolded. For example, if you succeed in getting me lynched you and Goryani are going to find yourselves in the crosshairs because you're both doing a whole lot of OMGUS and trying to avoid answering for what you said and did yesterday and instead make me out to be the bad guy for pressing you to answer.

I agree with you! Frankly, the just of BPC's posts on Day 1 seemed like playfulness and nothing serious, that can fully be attributed to him just trying to fit in, considering it is only his 3rd freakin game. He seems to also have a bit of a flair for the dramatic, like come on, those 'poems' were kinda funny. I never saw anything scummy about BPC's posts and I feel like the just of the BPC train was based purely on two reasons: Wanting to get in a lynch by the end of the day and reactions to a new player actually attempting to be 'social'.

Talking about yourself in the third person? Are you trying to get people to not realize this is you talking about yourself?

All in all, assuming you people will take any of what I say seriously, Drixx seems to have to most sketchy looking posts. I don't see any true plays and his comment about "smoke and mirrors" seems, to me, exactly what Drixx is doing.

Vote: Drixx

Classic OMGUS vote, by proxy.

Do you realize that Goryani has yet to answer any of my questions? Every time I ask him to explain something that looks like a slip, he responds with either a question or "post #X is the only answer I'm giving".
 
@ThunderCat - Lynch me if you like. When I turn up vanilla townie, then what? I'm pushing Gory because Gory keeps making assertions which are either obviously untrue or which he refuses to back up with anything. His "feeling" that BPC was town. His "knowing" about mafia being able to lock either of the lynches since neither near lynch had two mafia in it... if that's true, how does he know that? Why doesn't he give us the information?

1. Are you seriously playing the "Lynch me if you want" card? That won't earn you any brownie points, you know.
2. "Gory keeps making assertions which are either obviously untrue". Seems it isn't that obvious to some of us folk. Care to enlighten us?

And yes, I do find it to be a waste of my time to go back through the thread to try and figure out what Gory swears is there but doesn't seem to be.

I might be a bit out of shape here, but correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the process of going back and rereading posts after other bits of information have been revealed a major part in catching mafia? Now, my thinking might be flawed here, but if you think that going back and rereading the thread (or other games if necessary) is a waste of time, then you are not interested in catching mafia and making connections between players, ergo you have a different agenda.
 
Vote tally:

Goryani (2): Bad Ash, Drixx
BipolarChemist (1): crawlingdeadman
Drixx (2): ThunderCat, BipolarChemist
 
You are the one who asserted that neither near lynch contained two mafia. You provided no rationale for this claim, but expected us to trust that your calculations were correct.

His "knowing" about mafia being able to lock either of the lynches since neither near lynch had two mafia in it... if that's true, how does he know that? Why doesn't he give us the information?

If you believe him when he claims to know that neither the BPC near lynch nor his own near lynch had two mafia voting already and therefore a mafia could have locked but didn't, don't you want to know how he arrived at that conclusion?

I said no such thing. Allow myself to quote myself.

"There is no permutation of alignment distribution that allows BA to be certain town makes the locking vote on a mafia unless BA is mafia."

BA made an assertion that town would be the ones making the decision about BA vs Gory. He also made the implicit assertion that BPC was no longer a lynch candidate and that town wouldn't be making that decision.

"Gory makes a case against a BPC lynch and votes for me giving me my 2nd, what am I supposed to do? I matched the vote giving him two giving the town a chance to suggest who is scummier, me or him."

I find no way BA can have the info needed for that statement to be true without BA being mafia. I ask BA why he, rather than choose a lynch target himself, lets others make the decision for him. Townie BA shouldn't be so confident he knows all mafia members that he ignores the possibility he is wrong. Therefore, letting others decide runs a very real possibility that mafia get to decide. How can BA be so sure that won't happen?

BA's answer? He said it was a glass half empty/full kind of thing but doesn't say how the glass can have any water in it.

In fact, when I asked him to show me since I obviously didn't get it, he responded by telling me to show everyone. How am I meant to prove his assertion when I already said I didn't see it?

You said you wasted your time charting out the possibilities. Post 166 implies you had the proof ready. It sounds like you could come up with a scenario where BA wouldn't fear mafia causing a mislynch.
 
I agree with you! Frankly, the just of BPC's posts on Day 1 seemed like playfulness and nothing serious, that can fully be attributed to him just trying to fit in, considering it is only his 3rd freakin game. He seems to also have a bit of a flair for the dramatic, like come on, those 'poems' were kinda funny. I never saw anything scummy about BPC's posts and I feel like the just of the BPC train was based purely on two reasons: Wanting to get in a lynch by the end of the day and reactions to a new player actually attempting to be 'social'.

That was pretty funny. I had to scroll up to double check who was making the statement then I laughed.
 
Do you realize that Goryani has yet to answer any of my questions? Every time I ask him to explain something that looks like a slip, he responds with either a question or "post #X is the only answer I'm giving".

Quote any question or passage you think I haven't answered.
 
BA made an assertion that town would be the ones making the decision about BA vs Gory. He also made the implicit assertion that BPC was no longer a lynch candidate and that town wouldn't be making that decision.

"Gory makes a case against a BPC lynch and votes for me giving me my 2nd, what am I supposed to do? I matched the vote giving him two giving the town a chance to suggest who is scummier, me or him."

I find no way BA can have the info needed for that statement to be true without BA being mafia. I ask BA why he, rather than choose a lynch target himself, lets others make the decision for him. Townie BA shouldn't be so confident he knows all mafia members that he ignores the possibility he is wrong. Therefore, letting others decide runs a very real possibility that mafia get to decide. How can BA be so sure that won't happen?

If people don't see this as blatant scum behavior, then that's there problem but I don't think I'll be changing my vote today.

ONCE AGAIN since you are selecting portions of what I say and spinning it to try to make me look like scum (which is exactly what you are doing over, and over, and over again in your posts) five people were required for lynch yesterday. with a maximum of two scum in this game, there are a majority of townies in on a lynch yesterday than today.

Ill keep it simple for you

3 > (This symbol there, that stands for greater than. greater than means more than) 2

The information I "magically have" is called looking at the vote tally. I voted for you, how is that not choosing my own target? If we are both at two votes what is that called? a tie. Do I have the capability of casting five votes? lets think about that. HMM. I also made zero implication that BPC was no longer a lynch candidate. The decision to vote for you was an insurance policy if the BPC vote fell through.

If people all of a sudden want to go against a main candidate lynch on day 1, who do they fall too? Let's use our brains again, most likely the person with the largest amount of votes. This happens all the time. By tieing (both of our numbers being the same. that number was 2) our votes, I let others decide as oppose to letting YOU get away with an easy derailment and bus on myself.

If I had come back to the thread and seen BPC at 4, 3, any number higher than 2, I would have unvoted for you (this is the process of removing my vote) and voted for BPC (the process of replacing that vote for someone else)

I'll show you an easy example of what you are doing in my next post to demonstrate how ridiculous it is.
 
Quite obviously joking.

In a lengthy post where you finish by placing a vote on me, why is one paragraph randomly "obviously" a joke. You completely switch and talk about yourself as if you were another person. There doesn't seem to be a purpose to it. You're acting like a VI except there isn't meant to be one this game.

1. Are you seriously playing the "Lynch me if you want" card? That won't earn you any brownie points, you know.
2. "Gory keeps making assertions which are either obviously untrue". Seems it isn't that obvious to some of us folk. Care to enlighten us?

I wish I could enlighten you. I still have no idea how he concluded that neither group of votes that got BPC and then him to 1 shy of lynch could have contained 2 mafia and therefore mafia could have locked one or the other but chose not to. I've been quite confused since he said that because it seems to require knowledge that I don't have to say that with any certainty.

I might be a bit out of shape here, but correct me if I'm wrong. Isn't the process of going back and rereading posts after other bits of information have been revealed a major part in catching mafia? Now, my thinking might be flawed here, but if you think that going back and rereading the thread (or other games if necessary) is a waste of time, then you are not interested in catching mafia and making connections between players, ergo you have a different agenda.

Why are you so intent on twisting what I said into more? I went through specifically to see what in the voting results could prove that both mafia were not involved in both near lynches, and I couldn't find it. Therefore I wasted my time trying to find what Gory was implying was there for all of us to see, because I didn't find it.

The act of re-reading the thread regularly to try and find scum isn't a waste of time, and I never said it was. Why are you so intent on taking my statement that the specific act of trying to find something in the thread that gory implied was there ended up wasting my time and stretching it into me saying that I'm (quoting you here now) "not interested in catching mafia and making connections between players, ergo you have a different agenda."

You're stretching my comment an awfully long way. I will try and assume that you're doing so to see how I'll respond rather than for more nefarious purposes.

Drixx: Out of all the games you've played, how many times have you been mafia?

All of the games I've played ever? Well, back when I was a teenager, more than a couple decades back, I first played mafia with my youth group, and I was the Godfather once and a regular mafia another time. I won so convincingly as the Godfather that from then on I was routinely killed early on just on principle.

If you are asking a more restrictive question concerning how many times here on these forums, the answer is zero ... unless you count the "mostly vanilla" game in which I was a townie who was actually the mafia, or something. I'm still not sure I quite understand exactly what was going on in that game, apart from it being quite fun.

I think the underlying question is whether I change how I play depending on role, and the answer to that is that I d not. I've been a vanilla townie lots, a back-up doctor once, a party host once, and a cop once. I'm pretty sure I generally press people when what they say doesn't make sense to me, and I tend to play actively which has the unfortunate negative effect of sometimes giving people cover to lurk behind. I'm not sure that just lurking would be a better way to play though.

You said you wasted your time charting out the possibilities. Post 166 implies you had the proof ready. It sounds like you could come up with a scenario where BA wouldn't fear mafia causing a mislynch.

Here's what you said that confused me:

A single vote would have caused one of two possible lynches. Scum had two votes yesterday. There is no set of two players who voted for both BPC and I. Therefore, scum would be in a position to decide to lynch either one.

From my notes on the way votes were cast and uncast throughout the day, I do not see how you can say that neither potential lynch (you and BPC) had both mafia in it. Your assertion reads to me like an accusation that Bad Ash's actions put it into scum's hands to lock either lynch, and yet there was no lynch. If both you and BPC are townies, and we know that at last one of the lynch groupings couldn't have contained both mafia, why weren't one of you locked?

The only way I can see that you would have the information to say for sure that neither lynch wagon had both mafia involved is if you had information not available to the town at large. The only way you would have such information would be if you were one of the two mafia or if you were a town power role. I can totally understand why you would dodge the question in the latter case, but since I picked up on the implied knowledge that didn't add up, it stands to reason that better players than I (most everyone in this game) would also, so you would have already outed yourself with that implication.

The reason I've asked you to walk us through it is because I genuinely don't understand how you arrived at that conclusion and I'm quite open to the possibility that I simply missed something obvious to everyone else.

So the possibilities, as I see them are three:

1.) You're scum and you slipped by exposing knowledge you had that the town didn't.

2.) You're town power role that has information and were trying to fly under the radar and get suspicion on the right person or at least off of an innocent person.

3.) You were simply working with info in the thread plain for everyone to see and I've missed it despite now going two additional passes through to try and find it.


I'm quite open to the possibility that I've missed something, which you could easily point out by walking us through your thought process. If #2 is the case, I'm quite sorry to have brought so much attention onto you about it. If I were scum and you were not, I would already know you were a townie and the slip would have gone unmentioned by me and I'd have night killed you. Just being honest about how I'd have played it.

If #1 is the case, then I suppose you won't be able to walk us through the thought process and clear up how you knew neither lynch train contained both mafia, and if you cannot explain that, I should hope the town would see that as suspicious, because it's the driving reason I'm pressing you hard during this day phase.

At times your responses have seemed scummy. At other times they've seemed townie. You're somewhat difficult to get a read on sometimes in this game. The only person who gives me more trouble is Sathoris, lol.
 
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