The Hole - Mini Mafia game

[BipolarChemist]

But the question is do we lynch Bipolar to put the WIFOM involving him to bed, or were Goryani's actions scummy enough to go for him instead?

What I'm seeing here is that you're not completely sure on one account and you've mostly made up your mind on another.

The gory/bipolar interaction felt very rehearsed and I found gory's reason not to vote for him rather suspect.

I felt rushed at the end of the day. I was damn close to being lynched and I saw a bit of an opportunity to get out of it.

When I voted for Gory the first time, I just hadn't noticed what he had posted because he posted while I was in the process of voting for him.

When I realized what he posted, then I had a bit of a change of heart.

Finally, going back over the day, I felt my vote for Gory was justified and I revoted him.

I knew it would come up today but it was honestly just me feeling rushed and unsure of what to do.

 

[Bad Ash]

I didn't get a chance to post much at the end of the day when everything ended, but that is exactly how I feel. The gory/bipolar interaction felt very rehearsed and I found gory's reason not to vote for him rather suspect. The feelings I had yesterday of gory being town have now completely vanished.

Sigh. C'mon guys.

Why should we trust YOU kestegs? Gory is sitting at four votes. You come in with a "sigh, cmon guys" implying you understood that votes were shifting. Gory was one vote away from lynch and you post without changing your vote.

I would have happily locked BPC yesterday, but I had no idea how much time was left in the day with the whole 51 hour thing not processing in my mind. Gory makes a case against a BPC lynch and votes for me giving me my 2nd, what am I supposed to do? I matched the vote giving him two giving the town a chance to suggest who is scummier, me or him. We failed a lynch and I take responsibility for that but it was in no means intentional.

I'd be fine lynching gory or bpc today because the situation was troublesome to say the least and we may have our two scum locked down, but kestegs posts are definitely food for thought

 

[Kestegs]

But the question is do we lynch Bipolar to put the WIFOM involving him to bed, or were Goryani's actions scummy enough to go for him instead? I'm having a rather hard time making up my mind which way to go. Maybe you could analyze each of them and share your thoughts?

I really don't see a reason to lynch gory over bipolar right now. If bipolar is scum I can easily see gory as scum. If gory is scum I can still see bipolar as scum, but it's less of a connection IMO.

Why should we trust YOU kestegs? Gory is sitting at four votes. You come in with a "sigh, cmon guys" implying you understood that votes were shifting. Gory was one vote away from lynch and you post without changing your vote.

I would have happily locked BPC yesterday, but I had no idea how much time was left in the day with the whole 51 hour thing not processing in my mind. Gory makes a case against a BPC lynch and votes for me giving me my 2nd, what am I supposed to do? I matched the vote giving him two giving the town a chance to suggest who is scummier, me or him. We failed a lynch and I take responsibility for that but it was in no means intentional.

I'd be fine lynching gory or bpc today because the situation was troublesome to say the least and we may have our two scum locked down, but kestegs posts are definitely food for thought

You have no real reason to trust me, except that I've been trying to help the town. I mentioned shortly before day end that gory was a person I didn't want to lynch. I didn't actually read the thread completely right before my last post, I just skimmed it. I didn't realize how gory acted until after day was over. I really regret not voting gory now, because we're no better off today than we were yesterday.

 

[Caluin Graye]

When I voted for Gory the first time, I just hadn't noticed what he had posted because he posted while I was in the process of voting for him.

When I realized what he posted, then I had a bit of a change of heart.

Finally, going back over the day, I felt my vote for Gory was justified and I revoted him.

The amount of time between your unvote and your subsequent revote of Goryani was less than two minutes. In those 119 or less seconds, you carefully read through the events of the last day phase and decided that your vote should be on Goryani, yet posted "...damn it. Not sure what to do..."

That doesn't strike me as someone who felt their vote was justified. That strikes me as seeing an alternative lynch getting close and throwing them under the wheels instead of yourself.

Why should we trust YOU kestegs? Gory is sitting at four votes. You come in with a "sigh, cmon guys" implying you understood that votes were shifting. Gory was one vote away from lynch and you post without changing your vote.

This sums up my problem with kesteg's actions yesterday. Flat out refusing to vote Goryani, then chastising the town for not going through with a lynch is just... off. I get that opinions can (and should) often change, but bemoaning the impending no-lynch while holding the power to negate it is pretty scummy.

I really don't see a reason to lynch gory over bipolar right now. If bipolar is scum I can easily see gory as scum. If gory is scum I can still see bipolar as scum, but it's less of a connection IMO.

If Bipolar were to flip town, what would you think about Goryani?
If Goryani were to flip town, what would you think about Bipolar?

I feel like you're searching for a crime at the scene of the clues.

 

[Caluin Graye]

My own thoughts:

Goryani is always tough for me to read. I get an aggressive town vibe from him, but I freely admit that I've often gotten that vibe and seen him flip scum. Bipolar was pretty much a shoe-in for a lynch, and Goryani derailed it. If Bipolar is town, I can't see a scum Goryani doing that and putting himself at such a risk. Since I'm currently operating under the assumption that BPC is town, I'm leaning towards Goryani being town as well.

Two specific things stuck out yesterday:

First off, I'm not trying to find townies. My goal is to find scum. While you might not agree with the way I do it or with my passive play style, at the end of the day, that is my goal.

Finding townies is how you find scum. If you remove pieces from the pool, then you have a smaller pool from which to work with. It's obviously not an exact science, but when you focus so much on finding only the scummy behaviour, you often over look the town things that people do. Those things can be just as telling as someone's scum behaviour. By only focusing on the scummy aspects, you're setting yourself up to be able to justify lynching anyone for whatever perceived behaviour you can justify as scummy. Then, when the person lynched flips town, you can simply point back to all the scummy behaviour while conveniently ignoring any townie behaviours.

That's scum tactics. 'Lynch anyone that's not me.'

I could see myself voting for literally anyone

And here's the condensed version of my last two paragraphs. 'So long as it isn't me, let's lynch anyone'.

I would be most willing to lynch kestegs, Bad Ash, or Thundercat.

 

[Goryani]

Goryani's assumption of being the sole arbiter of whether the town lyches or not really bothered me.

Can I get a translation?

Goryani is going to have to answer for costing the town a day,

Please explain to everyone how it's my fault that Drixx, Caluin Graye, Bad Ash and ThunderCat didn't vote BipolarChemist at the end of the day. Please explain to everyone how it's my fault that Caluin Graye, Bad Ash and ThunderCat didn't vote BipolarChemst when just one more vote would have locked?

I've been accused a lot of things over the years but this is one of the most absurd. I think it's second only to when a serial killer said I lost the game for the town when claiming cop before D2.

and it better be a spectacularly good answer. Gut instincts are not enough to decide to be the sole arbiter of a lynch or not.

If you don't consider the explanation I gave in #131 "good enough" then I'm sure you will be disappointed. It's not the only reason but it's the biggest.

p.s. - How did that search for my "lynch anyone even if you think they are townie in order to obtain information" quote go?

 

[Goryani]

Why should we trust YOU kestegs? Gory is sitting at four votes. You come in with a "sigh, cmon guys" implying you understood that votes were shifting. Gory was one vote away from lynch and you post without changing your vote.

I would have happily locked BPC yesterday, but I had no idea how much time was left in the day with the whole 51 hour thing not processing in my mind. Gory makes a case against a BPC lynch and votes for me giving me my 2nd, what am I supposed to do? I matched the vote giving him two giving the town a chance to suggest who is scummier, me or him. We failed a lynch and I take responsibility for that but it was in no means intentional.

I'd be fine lynching gory or bpc today because the situation was troublesome to say the least and we may have our two scum locked down, but kestegs posts are definitely food for thought

If you were so happy to lock BPC, why didn't you put him at Lock-1 when you had a chance?
Why would a townie give mafia a chance to decide the "who is scummier" question?
Why do you think the "who is scummier" question was between you and I? Why wasn't BPC in there at all?

 

[Bad Ash]

If you were so happy to lock BPC, why didn't you put him at Lock-1 when you had a chance?
Why would a townie give mafia a chance to decide the "who is scummier" question?
Why do you think the "who is scummier" question was between you and I? Why wasn't BPC in there at all?

Well I already explained this. And it is based on your actions. Time aside you made a push to start a lynch on me by explaining against a BPC lynch and putting me at two votes. If people follow through with your logic I am on the chopping block easily. I matched your vote to let the town decide who was scumier as we both had two votes.

My lynch anyone comment stood at day one and still stands. I am fine lynching anyone because I don't think anyone is confirmed town yet in my eyes. I also don't have a scum partner and it's a lame way of being LAMIST.


Another factor. Gory aren't you usually FOR day one lynches regardless? I very well could be wrong but if you are you should go today on that principle alone as you would have to have a reason to not lynch BPC

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[Goryani]

Well I already explained this. And it is based on your actions. Time aside you made a push to start a lynch on me by explaining against a BPC lynch and putting me at two votes. If people follow through with your logic I am on the chopping block easily. I matched your vote to let the town decide who was scumier as we both had two votes.

That's funny. I don't remember doing any of that as of post 111.

My lynch anyone comment stood at day one and still stands. I am fine lynching anyone because I don't think anyone is confirmed town yet in my eyes. I also don't have a scum partner and it's a lame way of being LAMIST.

I'm assuming this an answer to my question about why a townie would give mafia a chance to decide who was scummier. I don't see that answer so I'll ask again.

Why would a townie give mafia a chance to decide the "who is scummier" question?

Another factor. Gory aren't you usually FOR day one lynches regardless? I very well could be wrong but if you are you should go today on that principle alone as you would have to have a reason to not lynch BPC

You have to look back all the way to last game to find when I was accused of being mafia for opposing the "we must lynch D1 regardless" mantra that mafia were pushing. I can probably find several similar incidents.

I support D1 lynches. I oppose D1 lynches regardless. I oppose lynching for information.

 

[Goryani]

Bah. Forgot to mention you didn't answer the third question either. 0 for 3.

 

[Bad Ash]

Vote Tally:

Bad Ash (1): BipolarChemist
BipolarChemist (3): kestegs, Drixx, crawlingdeadman
Goryani (1): ThunderCat

Day ends in 1 hour 15 minutes.

Ok.

Anyways, we ahve just a little over an hour, and BPC is the most likely to be mafia in my opinion.

Vote: BipolarChemist

Vote: Bad Ash

It's looking like a BPC lynch is a mistake. BA would not be my first choice but I can't point to a reason to not vote for him.

Explain to me how this last post quoted is not trying to get a train going for me based on the Information

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[Bad Ash]

I support D1 lynches. I oppose D1 lynches regardless. I oppose lynching for information.

Explain to me the logic of voting for me as opposed to not voting at all if this is what you truly belive

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[Bad Ash]

Why would a townie give mafia a chance to decide the "who is scummier" question?

This question to me is looking a lot like mafia proganda.

First off where your glass is have empty mine is half full. I was giving the town the chance to decide. If you want to get into the basic breakdown of yesterday with a possibility of two scum and five to lynch I'd love to hear how the scum decided any lynch that could have occurred yesterday.

I see this as your attempt at LAMIST. Vote: Goryani

For actions yesterday regarding the lynch. For contradicting yourself on your voting policies. For not wanting to lynch for information (what?). And for posts like these

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[Drixx]

Can I get a translation?

Snark much? You decided, based upon your "feeling" that BPC wasn't scum, that you would not put the lock vote on him and tried (successfully) to derail the train on him, despite the hugely erratic posts he made all day. You took it upon yourself to be the sole arbiter of whether the lynch would happen (time was running out rapidly, there was no guarantee anyone else would show up, and you refused to ensure that the town used our only power), based solely upon your opinion that BPC is a townie, despite the almost ridiculous amount of posts he made that would seem to indicate he's either scum or suicidal. Your refusal to seal the deal was the proximate cause to the town failing to lynch anyone day one, and you can equivocate and toss snark around all you like, but that won't change the fact that you derailed that train for no better reason than your "feeling".

Please explain to everyone how it's my fault that Drixx, Caluin Graye, Bad Ash and ThunderCat didn't vote BipolarChemist at the end of the day. Please explain to everyone how it's my fault that Caluin Graye, Bad Ash and ThunderCat didn't vote BipolarChemst when just one more vote would have locked?

I've been accused a lot of things over the years but this is one of the most absurd. I think it's second only to when a serial killer said I lost the game for the town when claiming cop before D2.

You derailed the wagon with very little time left in the day. The only active people at that point were you and the people who already had votes on BPC. Since you refused to vote for BPC, we were forced to go to another option, but we lacked enough active people to lynch you and you refused to lynch BPC, so yes, it's your fault. You made the play, so don't go trying to weasel out of it afterwards.

If you don't consider the explanation I gave in #131 "good enough" then I'm sure you will be disappointed. It's not the only reason but it's the biggest.

"I don't think X players is Y role" is never a good enough explanation, especially when said player had the post history in the game that BPC did when you made the comment. You would [highlight]never[/highlight] accept that from someone else, so why do you expect us to accept it from you?

p.s. - How did that search for my "lynch anyone even if you think they are townie in order to obtain information" quote go?

You and I both know the forum search function is broken. Challenging me to an impossible task and then gloating when I can't search your posts ... that's your play to convince us you're a good guy?

I support D1 lynches. I oppose D1 lynches regardless. I oppose lynching for information.

Is everyone else as confused by this as I am? You support D1 lynches (except yesterday apparently). You oppose D1 lynches regardless (of what?) and you oppose lynching for information. I hate to tell you but apart from a Sane Cop's reveal, a major slip up or a party host bit of information that confirms someone is scum, [highlight]all lynches[/highlight] are for information.

Bah. Forgot to mention you didn't answer the third question either. 0 for 3.

Speaking of not answering questions, not only did you refuse to answer mine, you responded with a lot of snark and OMGUS style comments to shove a pile of questions back on me.

Because you refused to lock the lynch on yesterday's most odd behaving person, because you refused to answer any questions about what you had to go on besides a "feeling", because you are going totally OMGUS on everyone questioning you, because you have contradicted yourself all over the place, and most importantly because you were the scummiest player yesterday (BPC notwithstanding, assuming the odd posts were a "mafia couldn't possibly be dumb enough to call that kind of attention to themselves" LAMIST play),

Vote: Goryani

 

[Goryani]

Explain to me how this last post quoted is not trying to get a train going for me based on the Information

That's not lynching for information. Here are some examples:

Soandso interacted with a lot of people today. We'll learn more about those players if we lynch Soando.

A mafia said the opposite of you and he shouldn't have any reason to lie. If you're telling the truth then we can believe you and that helps clear Soandso. We can only determine if you are telling the truth if we lynch you.

 

[Goryani]

Explain to me the logic of voting for me as opposed to not voting at all if this is what you truly belive

A lynch is better than a no-lynch. I had hope there were enough active players left we could still have a productive lynch on a target more likely to be scum than town.

 

[Drixx]

A lynch is better than a no-lynch. I had hope there were enough active players left we could still have a productive lynch on a target more likely to be scum than town.

And yet you refuse to explain why BPC is "likely" to be town, and your reasoning for why Bad Ash is "likely" to be scum appears non-existent.

 

[Drixx]

Goryani refuses to give any answers. Lots of smokescreen and OMGUS and accusation and insinuation ... but put a fan on it and you'll see it's all smoke and mirrors.

 

[Goryani]

This question to me is looking a lot like mafia proganda.

Elaborate on that. I'm sure the rest of the players want to hear it.

Admit it. You have no answer to my question. Look up every Valhauros win as a SK. Not doing anything while looking like you are doing something is a good way for scum to win. You didn't want to make any decision so you let others decide for you.

[Drixx: that's HIPS is in case you were wondering]

First off where your glass is have empty mine is half full. I was giving the town the chance to decide. If you want to get into the basic breakdown of yesterday with a possibility of two scum and five to lynch I'd love to hear how the scum decided any lynch that could have occurred yesterday.

A single vote would have caused one of two possible lynches. Scum had two votes yesterday. There is no set of two players who voted for both BPC and I. Therefore, scum would be in a position to decide to lynch either one.

And I like how you said you gave town the choice. You gave town the choice. I'm so glad you know who the town are. That helps.

 

[Drixx]

A single vote would have caused one of two possible lynches. Scum had two votes yesterday. There is no set of two players who voted for both BPC and I. Therefore, scum would be in a position to decide to lynch either one.

Major slip here. Anyone who talks as if they know who is scum and who isn't and whether scum would vote in tandem or not in tandem or whether scum would have locked a townie lynch (if you believe Gory's premise that he and bpc are both townies, which he has thus far offered no reason for us to believe) has information that the town doesn't.

The longer Goryani goes without addressing my large post, the more it seems that there is some scrambling going on in the mafia daytalk whilest he and his partner try to come up with something plausible.