Possibly OT?: "Taint"

If it is a tainted item that was recieved and the person traded fairly (it wasn't a omfg that is an awesome deal) sort of thing. But the item was traded at the normal market value, then I see no reason if the stats are 100% legit and it is just the item that is tainted due to the person who found it using a hacked/duped item, to delete the tainted yet legit stat'd item.

It doesn't work that way. If you buy a stolen car, the police aren't going to let you keep it even if you paid fair market value for it. Unless you track down the person that sold it to you, you're not getting your money back once the police take the car away either.

As far as it goes for the reciever, they would have traded for the item in question anyway at the same average price.

You assume that there's always a willing, legit seller for any item, and that's absolutely not true for the high end items.



 
I think thyiad hit it right on the nail. Thats about as clear as it gets and i think that if we were to change forum rules this is what would be enforced. I think that suiling falls into the OBVIOUSLY HAXXORED item group tho as i really feel that she should have known that charm was a hacked item.
 
FlimFlan try reading HP_Sauce's answers again, incl. the linked post, and you will see that this is actually what he is trying to avoid with the "scoring" system, so everybody knows how badly tainded you are.
If you unknowingly receive a duped/hacked/tainded item you sould not be punished, but you still need to delete any items found using the duped/hacked/tainded item because you become a more powerful player using these items. Offcourse there is also the experience problem.

But this is where I say you are crazy. If someone cheated me in a trade and I use said item and stumble upon a Tyrael's, I should delete it? Are you crazy? ONce again, why should I be punished for someone lese cheating? If I had not traded for an item, would I have not been playing anyway? It means that you have to make separate stashes after each trade to ensure that you are keeping track of what you find. Are you doing that?



 
But this is where I say you are crazy. If someone cheated me in a trade and I use said item and stumble upon a Tyrael's, I should delete it? Are you crazy? ONce again, why should I be punished for someone lese cheating? If I had not traded for an item, would I have not been playing anyway? It means that you have to make separate stashes after each trade to ensure that you are keeping track of what you find. Are you doing that?

It means that you would put "IT level 1" in your profile, keep your Tyrael's Might, leave your stashes exactly as they are, and continue on life as usual.

The only thing that would change is that other people who do not wish to play the game with "tainted" items would be aware of your status and could make a knowledgable decision when trading with you.

-hps
 
Honestly in my opionon it is very simple. Please dont flame me or burn me just for expressing myself. Alot of you im sure will disagree and thats cool. Its not very intelegent(spelling?) written either. I think it is a matter of choice.
If you dont want to run the risk of being tainted and having to complete restart then dont trade or MP!!!!! If you dont have a problem restarting if you get burned then by all means go for it. If catching a "taint" is going to ruin all your work and 2 years worth of playing .. why the hell would you risk it for a trade or to mp with a couple of friends. If your time and efforts are that important to you , dont gamble it on a chance of taint. If you woudnt have a problem just sucking it up and restarting with an imence hate towards the tainter then interact with them.
I know this was nothing even close to every one elses views and so well written posts. I also think it is kind of insulting that some one would say not to post if its not intelegent. I just like to come home from school and play d2. I would want to voice my opionon even if it wasn't well written.
Doesn't concern me any ways so nah nah !! :grin:
 
But this is where I say you are crazy. If someone cheated me in a trade and I use said item and stumble upon a Tyrael's, I should delete it? Are you crazy? ONce again, why should I be punished for someone lese cheating? If I had not traded for an item, would I have not been playing anyway?

The safe assumption is that you would have been playing BUT the new item (assuming it is better than the previous item) helped you make a few more kills or carry a bit more MF. Deleting a Tyreals would be painful but you can't prove that you would have gotten it without the help of a hack somewhere along the way. Perhaps its as indirect as the previous owner wouldn't have found the item without a hack but the end result is the same. You may not have found the Tyreals without the help of the hack at some piont.

Also, I just want to second Kabal, "Fair Market Value" is a pipe dream where high end, hacked (or highly tainted, i.e. dropped in game with help of drop mod) items are concerned. However expensive they may seem, they likely would not even be in the trading pool without the hack. Their expensive price may appear reasonable but if a legit version is not for sale, then there is no legit market value.

Edit: As long as I'm here, I'll also add my general opinion. We need to try to punish the abuser (hacker etc...) and help the victims. That doesn't means the victims just keep everything, it does mean that if there are ways to remove the taint other than deleting everything (backups) then that is preferable.

Lastly, let me put out a vote against damned or I.T. classification. It sounds kind but is ultimately a way to allow hacked items into an SPF supported trading pool. I can't see any good coming of that. I can see an individual keeping their own "damned" or "I.T." characters around because they enjoy them but they should be kept seperate from chars that interact with legitemate trade pools.



 
@YoungDbl

I don't think there is anything wrong with your opinion, or the fact that you posted it, or even how you worded it. You feel that everyone should look after themselves and if they don't then they have to suffer the conciquences. If thats what we all decide on in the end thats fine with me.

I think what he ment by "don't post if it isn't intelegent" was more like, don't post if your going to say things like, "thats stupid because you are stupid and I'm smarter," or "I don't like you so your opinion sucks," or "haxx are leet, I rockzor, gg k thx."

-hps
 
The safe assumption is that you would have been playing BUT the new item (assuming it is better than the previous item) helped you make a few more kills or carry a bit more MF. Deleting a Tyreals would be painful but you can't prove that you would have gotten it without the help of a hack somewhere along the way. Perhaps its as indirect as the previous owner wouldn't have found the item without a hack but the end result is the same. You may not have found the Tyreals without the help of the hack at some piont.


And you can't prove that you would not have found it either. I just think people are going way overboard. Once again, you are punishing the victim and I do not agree with it.

HP I would bet that everyone who has traded much has been tainted in some way. To extrapolate what people are saying, you are tainted if you receive an item from someone, who received an item, who received an item from someone who had a duped item while playing. Where is the difference?



 
I had a dream that someone posted a game on Multiplayer that said.

"Come hack with me to baal! Lets see how fast we can do it from normal!"

crazy dream.
 
HP I would bet that everyone who has traded much has been tainted in some way. To extrapolate what people are saying, you are tainted if you receive an item from someone, who received an item, who received an item from someone who had a duped item while playing. Where is the difference?

Yes, so every person in that chain who recieved an item from someone who was tainted, who recieved an item from someone who was tainted, who recieved an item from someone who was tainted, would have an "IT level X" in their profile. It would mean nothing to them, but it would mean something to the people (however few of them there may be) who do not wish to recieve an item from someone who was tainted, who recieved an item from someone who was tainted, etc.

-hps
 
Thanks HP,
You make me feel better about posting it. I just figured that it would kind of make me look "bad". That is what I think is right and I am willing to stick to it to the very end. I guess I agree with what you said about the smart posting. I guess I just over-looked what it meant. I guess I was just jumping to conclusion. Im in that kind of attitude today. My bad whoever posted that. Though I do have to post my vote towards the fact that if you do come across items and characters and levels after tainted then you dont diserve to have them tyreals or not. Hackzored dupzored not yours!! :grin: :rolleyes:
 
Well, my opinion:

What is taint?
I pretty much agree with how Hp_Sauce explained it and Thyiad makes a good point with the the different categories of tainted items.

My take of what to do if you get tainted.
I see two ways to deal with it. You can either delete everything that's tainted in one way or the other or delete just the hacked item and keep finds that were made while using the hacked item.
Personally, I don't see any way to handle this that doesn't include deleting the hacked item, the char(s) using it, all items those char(s) found and any new char/items that were found using items found by the first char using the original hacked item. This is hard to track, so I'd just delete everything.

I keep my main MF chars self-found, so that I could keep any rare item they find in case I run into a bad trade.

Generally, I fully understand and accept the reasoning behind not having to delete items found by chars while using a tainted item. It's fine by me, if others handle it this way. It's just not my way.

Victims
Well, if you trade, you know the risks. If you want to minimise the risk of getting bad items, then take your precautions. Don't trade with just anyone. Keep items and chars separate for at least a while. Use some of your braincells!
I haven't been burned on a trade yet. Maybe I'm just lucky. Maybe it's because I am careful and have a good nose for smelling rotten traders. I couldn't tell if a gambled/crafted item is legit by ilvl or mods (I know a lot of the more common impossible mods on items, but not all), but I can usually tell if a person is trustworthy or not after reading them for a while.
Sure I could go wrong. Can't exclude that totally.
But then I made the decission to trade with someone and with that agreed to accept the consequence of maybe having to delete lots of stuff, if not everything.
I wouldn't call myself a victim.
 
Moar: +1
I totally agree with alot of what you are saying. Trade at your own risk. Do we need a surgeon generals warning? Cuation : trading can lead to severe anger and high blood pressure.

moar said:
I keep my main MF chars self-found, so that I could keep any rare item they find in case I run into a bad trade.
Very smart thing to do. Your on top of things :thumbsup:
 
This has been a fascinating discussion

It doesn't work that way. If you buy a stolen car, the police aren't going to let you keep it even if you paid fair market value for it. Unless you track down the person that sold it to you, you're not getting your money back once the police take the car away either.

I disagree with Kabal on this. It is true that if you buy a stolen car or stolen artwork it must be returned to the original owner. But the principle there is different, the stolen items literally belong to someone else and the rights of the true owner are paramount.

The more appropriate analogy would be to counterfeiting money. If someone walks into your store and uses ten phoney $100 bills (that look genuine) to buy some of your merchandise, then what happens? If the police arrive and point out the bills are a phoney, then you must give them up and you are out $1,000. But when the police arrive and you only have 5 of the ten bills left -because you unwittingly used them to buy a washing machine -all they take away fron you are the remaining five $100 bills. They do not confiscate your washing machine.

In real life the priniciples are:
1. The individual who counterfeited, and any knowing accomplices, should be punished.
2. The counterfeit money should be taken out of circulation, even when that results in a loss of money to innocent bystanders who accepted the money as part of an otherwise legitamate transaction.
3. However,when items have subsequently been purchased by innocent by-standers usng the counterfeit money, those items are not confiscated. The innocent by-standers have done nothing wrong, have acted in good faith, and in fact have earned the items that they have acquired -even though they paid with counterfeit money.

Applying these principles to D2:

1. Anyone who creates an illegitamate Diablo 2 item or knowingly uses a illegitimate item should be punished. Punishment can be extended, usually with lesser penalties, to individuals who are innocent but "grossly negligent" just as in real life you might be punished for not noticing that Mickey Mouse was on the counterfeit $100 bills you have been using.
2. Anyone who possesses an illegitmate Diablo 2 item must destroy it, even they they have obtained it innocently.
3. Other than that, there is no foul and no one has to do anything. If you traded ypur Stormlash for a counterfeit Windforce and then used the bogus Windforce on a Bowazon who finds a Tyrael's Might - no problem. When you discover that the Windforce is bogus you give up the Windforce but not the Tyrael's Might. After all, if you had not innocently traded for the Bogus Windforce then you would certainly have taken the next offer for a legit Windforce. You would still have gained a WF which would have allowed you to kill more quickly and would have helped your Bowazon that found the Tyrael's. In other words you earned both the bogus Windforce and the Tyrael's - but you only give up the Windforce and only because it is important to get hacked items out of commerce.

Let's return one more time to Kabal's example - the guy who innocently paid fair market value for a stolen car. Yes, the police do confiscate the stolen car without compensating him. But let's also say that the guy used the stolen car to drive back and forth to his job for a month. Do the police confiscate the wages he earned during that month? Of course not, how silly!

And that's also how silly the SPF rules are about "tainted" items.



 
Well written. Very good examples applied to us here at the spf.
I like the post quick death!
quickdeath said:
Do the police confiscate the wages he earned during that month? Of course not, how silly!
Do you know how much trouble this would cuase? Applying this to the spf look how much trouble tainted items cuase us in a case like that. I think that examples applies very nicely and shows us how "silly" we may react sometimes to a taint item.

Disclaimer: By we I do not mean all of the members here at the spf.
 
@Quickdeath: My analogy was to illustrate that price doesn't determine legitimacy as Wraithan was implying. Even in your counterfeit money example, the police will take the money without compensating you for the merchandise that you sold in a "fair" deal.

...After all, if you had not innocently traded for the Bogus Windforce then you would certainly have taken the next offer for a legit Windforce...

Like I said before, that kind of logic only applies to items that are a dime a dozen so if you don't buy it from one person, you can buy it from any one of the 20 other sellers. As far as I remember there hasn't been a WF traded here for a long, long time and I don't see one being offered in any threads right now.



 
@Quickdeath: My analogy was to illustrate that price doesn't determine legitimacy as Wraithan was implying. Even in your counterfeit money example, the police will take the money without compensating you for the merchandise that you sold in a "fair" deal.

Okay, Kabal, we agree on that. Peace.

Like I said before, that kind of logic only applies to items that are a dime a dozen so if you don't buy it from one person, you can buy it from any one of the 20 other sellers. As far as I remember there hasn't been a WF traded here for a long, long time and I don't see one being offered in any threads right now.

So your argument is essentially that when someone innocently obtains something that is fabulously rare in a fair market deal and the rare item is later discovered to be counterfeit, that the idea of a "fair market deal" becomes moot because he would not have been able to go elsewhere in the market to obtain it. I think that's an interesting point and worth some thought. You will then argue that you've established a slippery slope and, thus, that every more common item obtained in a fair market trade must be treated as you wish to treat the Windforce.

I do note that the person has still obtained the item in an equitable deal - in our example, he traded a Stormlash, which is probably also fairly rare in the trading marts. We all agree he must lose the Windforce and will not be compensated for it nor will he have his Stormlash returned. What principle requires him to destroy everything that might possibly have been gained while the counterfeit Windforce was in play?

Why does the man who has innocently bought a stolen car and used it for a month to deliver pizza have to sacrifice the wages he has earned by delivering pizza? In addition to losing the car? What purpose or underlying moral principle is served?



 
I don't think it's reasonable to always say delete or to always say not delete. I'd think that the mods try to treat these cases equitably, rather than identically.

Let's say someone just starts playing D2 and joins the forums, and one of his friends gives him a high level character decked out with top end items and charms. The new guy doesn't know the character and all the items were created using an editor, and over a period of a month progresses far faster than normally possible (let's say he accumulates a lot of wealth through MF runs). Would you argue that he should be able to keep all the items he's found with the hacked character?

On the other hand, if his friend just gave him a handful of duped gems at the very beginning of his D2 career, then I think it'd be insane for the guy to restart two years and however many characters/items later.

For the record, the police wouldn't confiscate the pizza guy's earnings in your example (I doubt they'd confiscate his earnings even if he actually stole the car), nor do I think they should.
 
I've got to completely agree with your logic Quickdeath. If you receive any item in good faith at market value that is not at all obviously hacked, any characters you play/items you find until said item is discovered tainted should not be touched. Obviously the hacked item should be removed, but beyond that there is no logical reason to go further.

Even if you were to argue that all subsequent leveling, items found were contaminated and need to be removed you cannot say that this only applies to super rare items. Have you ever thought that maybe that's why people don't trade WF's very often? They're more likely to be hacked, and taking a chance with valuable items in such a trade carries obvious risk. If you add on the paranoia that you may end up having to delete a slue of items and characters, I don't know who would ever trade for one.

However, I do understand why one would want to have a system where all items and characters downstream of a hacked item should be considered illegitamte. Having lax rules could eventually compromise the integrity of the community. I haven't been here long enough to know which is best, but my naive choice would be Quickdeath's model.

And Hp, I understand your wanting to lump "tainted" players into a separate trade pool, but this would last until the next big hacking scandal. Especially if you use that many degrees of separation the entire SPF trading community would very quickly all be labeled IT level X, and the only people without that label would be those that do not trade and thus do not care.
 
Let's say someone just starts playing D2 and joins the forums, and one of his friends gives him a high level character decked out with top end items and charms. The new guy doesn't know the character and all the items were created using an editor, and over a period of a month progresses far faster than normally possible (let's say he accumulates a lot of wealth through MF runs). Would you argue that he should be able to keep all the items he's found with the hacked character?

I think that's why most of the examples arguing against deleting tainted items always use the qualifiers, not obviously hacked item obtained at market value in a fair trade. It's quite clear that items obtained off forum are a whole different can of worms.

I'm not sure if anyone would ever bother to hack in a bunch of duped gems, it seems that if you're going to cheat you usually go all out, but that would be an interesting situation for the mods to clear up. Glad I'm not a mod :rolleyes:



 
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