Possibly OT?: "Taint"

[Serdash]

Possibly OT?: "Taint"

We can discuss the taint thing in a different thread, but let Suiling be for now.

Alright, so here we go.

Unless that was a very strange way of saying to not start a new thread on the subject of taint, I believe this is the official one.

And instead of me blathering on like an idiot, I'll simply refer to this post where I have already done so.

Also, in a slight response to Hrus(and only Hrus, since my PM box has such a small limit and I almost refuse to send out a PM unless I really need to, and the thread was sort of locked before I could respond in any way.);

BTW Serdash, again Sint's case was very different and you should not take it as an example, if you don't have the whole picture

I could've sworn I covered the, "I don't have all the information on it" part in the case of Sint. If I didn't, my apologies. I'm sure we've all had our own "Just got off of work and now I've decided to rant for no apparent reason" moments. I know there was a lot of information I simply did not have on Sint's case when I was typing up that post, but the information I did had does leave quite a few questions that are best suited for another time, another place.

So, onwards with the real subject.

Someone please define, provide proper example, and give a logical reasoning behind the concept of taint.

I'm eager to at the very least hear what everyone has to say about it, and let's try to keep this thread clean. So none of those, "That's stupid" responses. Let's make sure that if you make a post, it's one that has a contributing value.

Remember, this thread stays clean. I don't want it locked because someone has to prove that their e-peen is bigger than someone elses. It's a waste of your time, my time, and the time of the moderator who has to lock it. So be reasonable if you come to a conflict in discussion.

 

[Spearthrower]

Wow Serdash... that post you linked to of your own is quite possibly the most intelligent and well written thing I have ever seen you write!! Not that I am saying that you are unintelligent and badly written.... just that you dont show off your talents enough!

Oh hold on... I am supposed to write something contributive now...

I find this one a really difficult thing to answer.

Personally, I dont care what anyone does with their game as it has no impact on me.

Trading and multiplaying, tournaments and give-aways are all obviously highly dependent on the integrity and honour of the participants.

Time and again, it comes to light that someone has broken the fundamental rules. I havent been here for 4 years,but it happened before that and I can bet that this has happened repeatedly over a long period of time.

If someone unwittingly receives hacked items and uses them on a MF character to find themselves an entire grail's worth of stuff.... do we consider that all tainted and ask them to delete it all? If we ask them to.... how exactly do we police that? What's to stop anyone from saying "ok" and continuing?

It requires an inordinate amount of work by the mods to keep on top of all of these situations.

Yet they will still happen and keep happening.

I think it is very much a case of swimming with sharks - you are the one who chooses to do the potentially lethal activity and if you get your arse bitten off, then you should consider staying out of the water in future - don't blame the shark, it's in their nature.

If you fear being tainted then it is best to just stay away from situations in which you can receive the taint. This is my personal way of doing so. I play self-found because I have received items that were hacked, played my way through countless more games and only then found that several key items were duped or whatever.... this made me feel that a lot of my time and efforts were to some degree illegitimate.... but if someone had told me that I had been cheating, I would have told them where to get off. It stopped the fun for me.... I even may have passed on the taint without knowing but I really wouldn't expect others to respond the same way.

I really like your idea of a "club of the damned" where people who have received duped stuff and feel that their stash etc is tainted beyond repair other than deleting and who *do not want to* delete all their work.... they should be allowed to convene together - why not? They havent actually done anything wrong themselves.

Which leads to another point:

The thing I find most disturbing is this: This forum was built on 2 principles. 1) Integrity and honour in a non-hacked environment 2) Kindness and friendliness.

How often just in the last few weeks have I seen number 2 thoroughly sacrificed in the name of 1?

Some of the commentators in the Suiling thread should be ashamed of themselves - if you've got nothing good to say, don't say it. If you can only break rule 2 to speak about rule 1 - just dont say it - there's no requisite for you to put your oar in. PM's are a better vehicle for that - not public haranguing.

Thanks
Spear

 

[herobomberman]

Just incase any of this is aimed at my views on what happened, ill set a few things straight.

My comments on suiling were completely justified, anyone who has ever read anything by that person knows full well how much they know about D2. Suiling has read countless guides, pat'd a few chars, done lots of MFing etc etc and on and on. the decision suiling made to use the charms runes etc shows a blatent disregard to all her knowledge and common sense. Anyone that silly, deserves a kick up the bum.

Taint. This game is all about odds. Will tyraels drop or a El rune etc. If you get an hacked item and use it on teh char, then that char gets xp and finds items, you cannot tell me thats ok to just delete the items. Rate of killing, amount of kills and MF increasing S/U pick all decide what drops. if you have a hacked tals armour, sure, the 88MF is gonna make a diff to S/U drops. on that same note, if you have the legit tals set minus ammy, and you get a hacked one of those, mf wont change, but you will be more powerful, kill faster, kill more, die less etc.

So, if a char uses a hacked, duped whatever item, everything found, gained after using that item has to go. For char xp, well, all depends, you level from 80 to 90, either kill yourself enough to lose that xp or rebuild. and unless you are in teh 90's it does not take that long to rebuild.

Should a hacked item result in multiple chars been affected, hours upon hours of work.... you have a choice. That choice is do what is right by the community... like sint and delete pretty much everything if you cant know good from bad, legit found to found with hacked items. Or, do what is right by your happiness and sacrifice any further trading/mp'ing with the community.

It may be "only a game" but games mean alot to some ppl, specially with the hours and effort put it. So i think taint should be taken as seriously as possible, any progression made after taint should be deleted. Be it 25xp and a isenharts case, or 45lvls worth of xp and a Stash full of grailies. Should you not agree, dont trade!

 

[Suiling]

@herobomberman: So far, I patted only one char, a fishy, and another one, which is still a champion. I read only Hrus' MF guide, which i'm still a bit blur with the maths, Nightfish's fishymancer guide and Urlik's runefinding guide, which I was totally puzzled by the maths. I tried those charms out, and referred those charms to both mods. Then I deleted that characters, and restored the untainted one back. I deleted the tainted rune stash also, and use Cat's way to restore the original untainted one.

@Serdash: Sorry for not reading your whole post on that..

 

[Skinny]

I think there's a flaw in your (geneally very nice) post Serdash. You feel amazed that by using a hacked Bartuc's Cut Throat or a hacked Insight staff a person throws away all his work done with those items. Your reasoning is that there are not that powerfull and your chars might get by even better using other (legitimate) stuff. At the same time, you give the example of Enigma. I think we can all agree that Enigma is so broken that a char designed for it and leveled with a hacked copy of the runeword (and of course, all items found by him/her) cannot be considered legitimate and should be deleted. So what you want to do is to draw an imaginery line and say: to this point it's OK, you don't have to delete your char. But don't pass it, or else you'll be considered haxzorr. But that doesn't make sense to me. Where would you draw that line? Runewords with runes Gul and lower? Elite uniques? LoD class-specific sets? I think it's better the way it is now- the line is all the way to the left. You're in possesion of hacked items of any quality/in-game 'powerfullness'- all your work on a char done with those item is wasted, all items found using the haxed items are illegitimate. Plain, simple and fair.

Howgh

 

[Thyiad1]

[highlight]Preface[/highlight]

Grab a tea people. This is a long post and you'll need the caffeine.

Below are my opinions and mine alone. I understand they aren't necessarily in line with the Forum definitions and when the question has arisen, I have followed the forum rules where they were more strict than my own.

The writer:

• has had to delete items due to trading with subsequently banned forum members
• have questioned/reported items
• won't trade/MP with people if I have a bad feeling about them - and there are some on this forum

I think the reason there are so many differing views on this is because whenever the question arises, it is always coloured by many factors

• the reputation of the forum member
• length of time before discovery
• whether the user knew the item was haxxored
• the actual item

It's harder to say to someone who has earnt trust and respect "delete everything" when they were unknowingly using a hacked item. I wouldn't say that what I have written below would never be coloured by the circumstances; I would be a liar if I did. Take the below as generalizations and get back to me if you want a specific opinion. :wink:

[highlight]My definitions[/highlight]

OBVIOUSLY HAXXORED
Something which just cannot exist in game EG +45 to Amazon skills
It is obvious the item is non-legit but you still used it. (I will not get into a commentary about if you are stupid enough to accept this you should be fed to Corpse Spitters)

LESS OBVIOUSLY HAXXORED
Something that exists in game but has been 'created' EG wrong ilevel

POSSIBLY HACKED
Perfectly legit-looking item but from someone who is subsequently banned for duping/hacking

TAINTED
Perfectly legit item that has been found while using haxxored, less obviously haxxored or possibly hacked

[highlight]Delete me, I suck[/highlight]

Obviously haxxored items - I don't expect a disagreement over this one
Characters using obviously haxxored items for a long period of time
Items found using a character using obviously haxxored items
Characters knowingly MPing with characters using obviously haxxored items/less obviously haxxored items

To delete or not to delete these are the questions

1) Less obviously haxxored
2) Tainted items by using less obviously haxxored
3) Characters using less obviously haxxored

4) Possbily hacked
5) Tainted items by using possibly hacked
6) Characters using possibly hacked/tainted

7) Characters MP'd with characters using haxxored/less obviously haxxored
8) Characters MP'd with characters using possibly hacked/tainted

9) Items in the same stash as haxxored/less obviously haxxored/possibly hacked/tainted items

1) Less obviously haxxored
I would say this has to go because it isn't real item.

2) Tainted items by using less obviously haxxored
I would have to say if the item was being used unintentionally then the items found by the use of that item are legit and do not carry any taint. Many of you will disagree; certainly the forum rules disagree. But this is my opinion. And the crux is 'unintentionally' and 'less obviously haxxored'. If you *know* it's hacked, or if common sense should be ringing a few alarm bells, then I would say that falls into the delete me I suck category. But while we are talking about legitimately found items while unintentionally using something that looks kosher, I say it should stay.

3) Characters using less obviously haxxored
If the character used that item 'in good faith', IE without knowing it was not a real item, I think the character should not be deleted. If the item in question can exist in game but you happen to make a bad trade then as far as I can see, you could have easily traded from X who had a legit item than Y who didn't. You weren't to know. Swap the item to a legit one and move on.

*Can I just state that while I have been using the words 'unintentional' and 'in good faith' that does NOT mean you haven't got to use common sense. If you can't be bothered to engage even one braincell, then IMNSHO you are as guilty as an intentional hacker.*

4) Possbily hacked
To me this very tricky.
All of the items I have had to delete looked perfectly legitimate. Atma readings posted in trade threads without any screams from the members. They could be legit. They were questioned because the origin of the item was someone who was later found to dupe runes/hack. The forum stance is delete them. My personal view is if they don't look hacked they shouldn't be deleted. There is enough of a technical knowledge base here to spot dodgy items. Personal experience probably colouring this as the items I 'lost' were low/mid range so they probably were legit. I can see why the forum says delete everything under question but on this point I disagree particularly where ilevels/fingerprints etc look perfectly fine.

5) Tainted
It's six degrees of Kevin Bacon, really.
If you find something while using a possibly hacked, IE perfectly legitimate looking item, I think it should kept. There is no proof the item in use is hacked so I my eyes (if not the forum) the items found should not carry any taint.

6) Characters using possibly hacked/tainted items
I think this is really where the magots come out.
Erish was my rabies/fury Druid. He used a Ribby (which Erish up'd) and Gores from CoS who was later banned. The items look legit. The Mod decision was keep the character but delete the items. Which I did. From above you will see I disagree with deletion of the legit-looking items and must therefore, agree with keeping the character. Where is Erish now, you ask? Deleted. My choice. I lost the connection with him. My decision would have been the same if I could have kept the Ribby and Gores. (Erish wasn't using the items for long which is why I thing the Mod ruling was to keep him.) There is no logical reason to delete a character in this situation.

7) Characters unknowingly MP'd with characters using haxxored/less obviously haxxored items
I cannot in all conscience say to someone who has done NOTHING wrong "you must delete your character because X is a *I want my mummy*". Yes they may have gained experience but I cannot punish someone for the stupidity of another. Same caveat as above regarding engaging a brain cell.

8) Characters MP'd with characters using possibly hacked/tainted
Absolutely no penalty in my mind. Nothing is proven.

9) Items in the same stash as haxxored/less obviously haxxored/possibly hacked/tainted items
It's in the same stash. It doesn't carry the bubonic plague, your items won't suddenly all become +21 to Assassin skill levels modded. Delete as stated above and move on.

[highlight] Rollback[/highlight]

If you have the ability to rollback your characters and stashes to prior to an issue, then you should do so. However, I would prefer a TOTAL rollback. IE all characters and all stashes, not just the affected one. My resoning is it is easy to forget an item found/moved. If you haven't moved the character then nothing is lost and if you have it is simpler just to bring all characters back to the same point. However; if you have MP'd/traded the impact on others is to be considered.

[highlight] End note[/highlight]

This is all subjective. The forum rules are really the lowest common denominator. What the majority will accept. Some of us will have tighter standards, others much looser restraints. Providing we all know what to expect from each other, it really doesn't matter what our personal opinions are. Play by the majority or don't interact. Although a little more common sense and consideration for others would remove 95% of these problems, IMNSHO.

[highlight]Credits/Notes[/highlight]

Spellchecking by www.thefreedictionary.com
IMNSHO - in my not so humble opinion
OMG - have I just agreed with Serdash? Someone help me ...

 

[Spearthrower]

Thyiad - very nicely written and perfectly intelligible - it gives sound reasoning behind your ideas and isn't based on rabid fundamentalism. Me likes!

The big problem that still occurs even with your clear and concise write up is........ *drum roll* it is still based upon integrity and trust. If someone has a "less obviously hacked" item then perhaps it is really not obvious to them.... not everyone has the interest value to look into the game mechanics to see if their item matches ilvl's etc. I also really don't see why people should have to - the idea is to play the game, not tear it into little shreds to ensure integrity (although if that floats people's boats, then that's cool for them).

The innocent party shouldn't have to pay for being the victim of the "crime". In the particular case that spawned this whole discussion, Suiling had *already* written to the mods *prior* to posting about it in the forum. She had done her part to get official clarification on the items and that should be enough to prove her the innocent party. If instead people had pointed out her lack of knowledge of the workings of the game, then that would have been fairer... but she had enough knowledge to be suspicious and to contact the mods... fair play.

Mutual respect and gentle words resolve a lot more than leaping in en masse to tear someone down. In this case, some parties actually finding out some more details might have gone a long way to there not being a situation here today. Where even such a clearly written overview as Thyiad's is replete with grey areas.... can we really expect everyone to be capable of policing themselves? A lot of the lines are arbitrary and definitelty depend on knowledge and experience - where better to come to find out about those things if you dont know than by posting here on the forum? What worse result can happen than coming to find out and being attacked and having a number of personal slurs made about you because of your admitted ignorance?

 

[CRG]

At the moment, I am not able to comment constructively on the content of the posts, but the philosophical basis behind them is something to which I will comment/criticize/attack later. There are plenty of good and not-so-good arguments here. Like Thyiad, my post will require some caffeine to wade through.

Until then, gl to all.

 

[Thyiad1]

Thyiad - very nicely written and perfectly intelligible -

Thank you.

If someone has a "less obviously hacked" item then perhaps it is really not obvious to them....

Perhaps my writing wasn't clear here. I was using a dodgy ilvel as an example. I am not into the mechanics; plenty forumites are. No, I wouldn't catch an ilvel 10 spear having 5 sockets unless I was actually watching out for it. But if someone tells me "Pindledrop" with ilevel on 90 you bet I'll notice. My point with this type of item is it looks legit; legit stats etc but just a small thing makes it CLEAR it is not legit.

The innocent party shouldn't have to pay for being the victim of the "crime".

Re-read my post. I make this point several times.

In the particular case that spawned this whole discussion, Suiling

Don't care; it didn't spawn my interest. Not relevent, don't intend to comment. Move along.

Where even such a clearly written overview as Thyiad's is replete with grey areas....

Yes. I state that too. That's why we have arbitrators; they're called Mods. The difficulty for them is having a clear standard that is universally applied. It is impossible I believe to have a rule that is universally applied 100% of the time.

Let me give you an example (no offence meant to anyone named; I am demonstrating knowledge here). RTB or Orphan are found with a +12 lightenting skills orb. Reaction? WTF are you kidding you KNOW better. Deliberate haxxor. I am found with a crafted ammy with +2 Pally skills, +3 FoH, +20 resists and 5%mana leech. Reaction: You can't get +2 skills plus +3 to a skill on the same ammy. That's a hack. (I am guessing I don't know the suffix/affix rules yet; see my trade threads where I ask for impossible items. )

If you had one rule we would be treated the same. That would be ridiculous; you have to treat people while taking into account the knowledge that they have displayed. Or at least exercising common sense.

can we really expect everyone to be capable of policing themselves?

No, I accept - as should anyone who trades - that there are morons out there. All you can do is go by gut feeling and if you aren't happy with them, don't trade/MP even if they have been around since 1899.

...personal slurs made about you because of your admitted ignorance?

I don't see why ANYONE should be slated for asking "Here's an ATMA readout what do you think?" but that is not a replacement for using a bit of common sense.

My apologies for OTF'ing your post.

Edit: @crg - am I really so do you require coffee to talk to me or do you mean my post?:tongue: No wonder I don't have any friends.

 

[Hp_Sauce]

First of all I believe that I posted a fairly good explanation of how I feel about the situation in this post. I would like anyone responding to what I say next to read it as well.

@Dash:

Part Whatever

What Number Was I On Again?

I get the distinct impression that I'm being made fun of, and I do not appreciate it one bit.

So none of those, "That's stupid" responses. Let's make sure that if you make a post, it's one that has a contributing value.

In an effort to follow this in good faith to you and my fellow forum members, I am attempting to ignore my increased blood pressure...

Someone please define, provide proper example, and give a logical reasoning behind the concept of taint.

I would like to accept this challenge. Please remember to read my original post which is linked at the top of this page.

I would like to convert my Diablo 2 example to a sporting example, based in real world situations.

The Setup
Athlete X is a runner and he really wants to win a gold metal in the upcoming Olympic games. Athlete X is so desperate in fact that he begins to take steroids.

The Situation
Athlete X continues to train and practice very hard before the competition as well as take the steroids. In the end he wins first place in the 200 meter dash and receives a gold metal. Because of his gold metal he receives a $100,000 cash prize and gets a running shoe sponsorship contract with Nike for 5 years and $3,000,000.

The Discovery
The Olympic officials finally receive the results of Athlete X's blood tests 3 months later and discover he cheated.

The Gold Metal
The Olympic company strips player X of his gold metal and removes him from the standings. Essentially the source of player X's taint has been removed. Do you think it stops there? I certainly do not.

The $100,000 Cash prize
The Olympic Prize Fund manager is outraged, and besides, the 2nd place winner is now in first and he deserves the money. Athlete X is stripped of the $100,000 prize. But wait! He's already spent $50,000 of it on a new TV and a new Car. The money he used to buy those things was technically legit (it is real money after all), but it was acquired in an illegal way. So do you think Athlete X gets to keep the TV and the Car? I definitely do not, so out come the Olympics’ lawyers and away goes Athlete X's Car and TV.

The Contract with Nike.
Nike hired Athlete X on the basis that he was the fastest runner in the world that year and that people would look up to him and buy the shoes that he said to buy on commercials. But now what? Athlete X still did win the race, but he was enhanced. Some may say his enhancements were minimal, and that he could still have won the race without them. Let’s say Athlete X was a really good runner, known world wide for his running skills and hell, he probably would have won the race without being enhanced. Do you think Nike will let him keep his contract? I do not believe it to be so, Athlete X is illegitimate, he is a cheater, and one might even say he is "tainted."

So Nike fires Athlete X. Of course Athlete X had already received 1 of the 3 million dollars he was to get and has spent some of it already. Out comes Nike's lawyers and away goes Athlete X's 1 million dollars.

Conclusion
The police, or the legal system, or the 'justice' system whatever you want to call it removed the taint from Athlete X in much the same way the taint was removed from Player X. The source was removed, and then all subsequent results from the source were removed.

The Long-Term
If the steroids has been discovered 2 years after the action rather then 3 months after the action what would happen to Athlete X? I believe that Nike, the Olympics, and society in general would tear him a new one! Nike would sue him for future lost business, as well as the 3 mill they already gave him, probably for any free shoes he got, and they'd probably stick interest on top of the 3 mill as well. The Olympics would follow suit. He would be shunned by society, never able to compete in a competition again, never be trusted again. The 2nd place runner would probably even show up with a lawyer and have a go at him too. Athlete X's life as he knew it would be gone, completely changed, 'deleted' even.

A change of pace & more ethics then anyone should have to deal with.
I have no doubt about what I have written above. In my opinion that is how it is and how it should be. Player X, and Athlete X burned themselves and they were punished similarly, and fairly. It would however be some time before I traded with Player X, or cheered for Athlete X.

But what if Athlete X had a kid? Say he setup a college fund for his son with part of the money he received from Nike. Does Nike get to take the money away from his son 2 years later when they realize Athlete X cheated? What if the son has already completed 2 years of college using Nike's money? Do they get to take his marks away from him? Tear up his Transcripts? Pshyc-Probe his brain and leave him in a ditch like Rik?

What if Player X has traded a legit but "tainted" item to Player Y?

This is where the line gets fuzzy for me, or maybe where the possibility of a line starts to appear.

The son got a 95% average in college! Some will say that this was directly due to the fact that he had his way through college paid already and didn't have to work while he was studying. His results in school were definitely affected by the "taint." Maybe he could only pull of a 70% average in college if he had been working at the same time. So Nike should get to tear up his transcript! But maybe Athlete X's son could have still pulled off a 95% even while working!

Certainly Player Y could have found that Tyreal's Might without using the item he traded from Player X, but would he have?

Good Lord!

*Hp's head explodes*

It's ridiculous.

It's my belief that Nike wouldn't tear up Athlete X's son's transcripts because he was just an "innocent bystanderd." His life would continue as normal.

So that makes Player Y an "innocent bystandard."

My Votes for the "policy"

I definitely agree that there should be a "club" or title for people who have been indirectly and unknowingly tainted. Infact I think this is a really good idea!

Maybe people could add IT (for Indirectly Tainted) to their profiles. A date could possibly be useful also, and wouldn't be hard to narrow down.

I.e. Hp_Sauce 1.11b, RWM, IT 2004

Players could see that I was tainted, I discovered it, and that the Mods and I believe that it has been appropriately cleaned. It would now be up to the individual to decide if they wanted to trade with me.

The trouble is how far do you take it? If that person then trades with me today do they then have to put IT 2006 in their profile?

Maybe an IT level system could be used. If you trade with someone who is IT then you become "IT level 2," and if someone then trades with that person they would become "IT level 3." It could go on and on and on so there would have to be general consciences of where to draw the line. Maybe if you trade with someone who is "IT level 5" then you are considered not tainted.

I have to stop typing now, I have so many more ideas. I could continue, but I think I will stop and try to organize it better first. We'll see what school allows.

-hps

Note: Spearthrower, Crazy Runner Guy, and Thyiad posted while I was typing and I haven't read them yet.

 

[Tigereye1]

I completely agree with what HP_Sauce wrote in the linked post, and think it is very nice written, with easy to understand examples. The example about the athlete is also good but it gets a little fuzzy in the end, and I don't see the clear meaning of the athletes son, and how to understand this in D2LoD.

 

[Mursilis]

I believe HP_Sauce's example with the son was analogous to playing in a MP game where one person is tainted and the rest don't know it. According to some definitions those other characters are now also tainted and need to be "cleaned". In HP_Sauce's example the son is the now a tainted character but no action needs to be taken against him as what happened was not his fault. Therefore his grades/transcript are not destroyed and he is allowed to continue on as before.

I believe that means the same would be for the other characters who became tainted by playing MP with someone using a tainted character. No action is required to "clean" them and they are still considered legit.

Is that a fair conclusion HP_Sauce? I must admit my head did almost explode trying to read all of these posts at once.

I for one would love to know the offical stance as I didn't see anying in the stickies about it. Currently I play selffound and haven't MP yet so none of this affects me so far. Ergo I can't add anything to the discussion.

 

[Cattleya]

I would like to thank Serdash for starting this thread. This discussion comes up quite a bit, but it is usually attached to a thread with a specific incident. No two situations are ever alike, so I think pulling it into a more general discussion is a good idea.

I'm going to refrain from a long post on my personal opinions on the subject (which by the way aren't alway necessarily in line with what I enforce as a mod) but a lot of interesting points have been made already.

I'm very interested to see where this thread goes. :smiley:

 

[Wraithan]

If it is a tainted item that was recieved and the person traded fairly (it wasn't a omfg that is an awesome deal) sort of thing. But the item was traded at the normal market value, then I see no reason if the stats are 100% legit and it is just the item that is tainted due to the person who found it using a hacked/duped item, to delete the tainted yet legit stat'd item.

As far as it goes for the reciever, they would have traded for the item in question anyway at the same average price.

 

[pliu]

I am not sure how the Single Player Forum work and how your guys play MPing in single Player Forum. May be like an open bnet? I am a close bnet player. There are two words always use in close bnet hacked items and duped items. Some people also consider duped items as hacked items. I prefer to separate them.
Duped items is that the items exist in the game and someone create copies of the dropped items use hacked program. Hacked items for me are items that not exist in the game system and were create by hacked program such as the bugged tals armor. So for the case of HR and enigma that is a different story.

For the people who use hacked items, we also have to treat them different. There are two kinds of people who use hacked items. First kind is known what they are doing and they know they are using the hacked items. Second kind don’t know what they are doing and they think those items are legit because lack of knowledge about them and they will get rid of them when they find out they are hacked.

For them first kind we should punish them or ban them. For the second kind we should consider punish them depended how many damage they do.

For the example about the athlete, I get two cases that have different cause but ends results are the same and the two cases are only having different setups and situations:

Case 1:

The Setup

Athlete X is a runner and he really wants to win a gold metal in the upcoming Olympic games. Athlete X is so desperate in fact that he begins to take steroids.

The Situation

Athlete X continues to train and practice very hard before the competition as well as take the steroids. In the end he wins first place in the 200 meter dash and receives a gold metal. Because of his gold metal he receives a $100,000 cash prize and gets a running shoe sponsorship contract with Nike for 5 years and $3,000,000.

Case 2:

The Setup

Athlete X is a runner and he really wants to win a gold metal in the upcoming Olympic Games. The coach of Athlete X is so desperate in fact and decides to let Athlete X begins to take steroids by lying to him and tell Athlete X that those are Vitamin Supplements required by the coach for the health of the Athlete .

The Situation

Athlete X continues to train and practice very hard before the competition as well as take the steroids without aware of it and still thinks they are Vitamin Supplements. In the end he wins first place in the 200 meter dash and receives a gold metal. Because of his gold metal he receives a $100,000 cash prize and gets a running shoe sponsorship contract with Nike for 5 years and $3,000,000.

Now you know what I mean :badteeth:

 

[Hp_Sauce]

I completely agree with what HP_Sauce wrote in the linked post, and think it is very nice written, with easy to understand examples. The example about the athlete is also good but it gets a little fuzzy in the end, and I don't see the clear meaning of the athletes son, and how to understand this in D2LoD.

lol! I don't see the clear meaning of it either. I had written too much and my brain was fading.

Basicly, the athlete's son is an attempt at a real world example of someone who got shafted in a Diablo 2 trade. They didn't know they were getting a bad item (or bad money), they probably wouldn't have excepted it had they known. But they didn't know, and now they've used it.

The tainted item (or money), obviously effected their ability to succeed or fail. But do we punish them for it? How can we in good concience punish someone for something they did not know about? Or possibly don't even understand?

I do not believe that people should be punished for the actions of others. but I also agree that the community should do its best to stay "clean" and people should have a right to know what they are getting into.

And so I propose the Indirectly Tainted system:

If you:
1)- Knowingly Tainted yourself:
--a) And wish to "clean" yourself, you must remove all traces of the tainted item. Suiling is a good example of this. The mods helped her "clean up," if they are satisfied, then I am satisfied.
--b) And spread the taint to others via trading, you should be banned. At which time I could care less what you do with your items

2)- Recieved a Legit(ish), but tainted item (via trade):
--a) Appon discovery the item should be deleted. All other items found by that character using that item should not be deleted, but rather the player must now mark him/herself with an "IT level 1 2006" when trading items in the future.
--b) If the player does not wish to be marked "IT level 1 2006", he must remove all traces of the taint, meaning all items found by the character using the tainted item must be removed, as well as levels recieved, etc. If the player is not able to remember, or confidently remove the taint (due to time and poor memory) but still doesn't want to be marked "IT level 1 2006" then a complete delete and restart will be the only option.

3)- Knowingly or Unknowingly traded for an item from an "IT level 1" player.
--a) You must post in your profile when trading, "IT level 2 2006." Deletion of the item is no longer needed because it is your personal choice to trade with the "IT level 1" player.

4)- Have an IT status of any level and wish to remove it.
--a) You must removed the source of the taint as well as any items or levels resulting from the tainted item. If you can only be 100% sure about accomplishing this by completely deleting your characters and items then so be it. It is your choice.

This would continue on until the needed number if IT levels is reached.

As per Thyiad's example where he compared himself with RTB, there should probably be something worked in there about if you traded for an item that you knew wasn't legit, or should have suspected. Using Thyiad's example again, if RTB traded for a +8 Sorc skills staff and then used it there is now way he could later claim that "he didn't know," and should probably be considered the source of a taint and treated as per 1(a) or 1(b)

However, if someone who knew less about the game mechanics traded for a Rockstopper that had a level requirement of 29, then it could be quite possible that they didn't know it should be level 31 and they should be treated as 2(a) or 2(b) call for.

----------

It's just an idea, and I just wrote it now so I haven't checked it for any holes or problems, but I do think it would work. It would need a little more work to clarrify everything but hopefully this will be enough to get people started on the idea.

In my opinion it accomplishes:
- keeping people taint free who want to be taint free.
- Allows others to know when they are recieving a tainted item.
- Allows anyone to become untainted at anytime should they chose
- Allows people who got "screwed" the option of continuing on without having to set themselves back 2 years.

Above all I feel it does it without forcing anyone to do something they may not want to do.
- If someone became tainted and wants to continue on it is their choice.
- If someone doesn't care about trading for a tainted item it's their choice to trade with the IT rated person.
- If someone really does believe they would have more fun being untainted, they can choose to clean themselves.

And it doesn't punish people as seriously for the actions of someone else, while still allowing a way to keep order and track things.

-hps

 

[FlimFlan]

HP, your example is erroneous, because it is using atyhlete X as an active participant in the cheating. If someone unknowingly receives a duped or hacked item, they are not actively cheating. In fact, they are victims and should not be further punished.

Why the need to punish victims here? I guess I would be in the "damned pool", because there is no way I would delete my stuff because someone cheated me. I have limited time to play the game and would not throw away hours because of someone else.

 

[Tigereye1]

FlimFlan try reading HP_Sauce's answers again, incl. the linked post, and you will see that this is actually what he is trying to avoid with the "scoring" system, so everybody knows how badly tainded you are.
If you unknowingly receive a duped/hacked/tainded item you sould not be punished, but you still need to delete any items found using the duped/hacked/tainded item because you become a more powerful player using these items. Offcourse there is also the experience problem.

 

[pliu]

HP, your example is erroneous, because it is using atyhlete X as an active participant in the cheating. If someone unknowingly receives a duped or hacked item, they are not actively cheating. In fact, they are victims and should not be further punished.

Why the need to punish victims here? I guess I would be in the "damned pool", because there is no way I would delete my stuff because someone cheated me. I have limited time to play the game and would not throw away hours because of someone else.

I agree with Film here. Sometime hacked items users are victims.

 

[scwormy]

First of all, I may be the wrong person to post here, because although I play the game quite a bit, I happen to agree with Serdash in the fact that this is a game, and one should not 'punish' themselves for information which they had no knowledge of at the time by deleting everything they once had and have earned to date.

I play with the approach (that without hacking/cheating etc) of trying to get the best items possible with the strongest characters. I play for fun, remembering that it is a game and my life will not be ruined if something happens (disappointed at losing all my hard work yes, but not ruined - another reason I don't play HC as much as SC).

I know that a couple of other examples have been sited, but let me bring this example.

You own a business "D2 'R' us". You have had a successful business for a number of years dealing only with legitimate, well respected businessman to allow your company to grow.

One day, a new customer walks in. You perform a background check and decide to do business. (background check = well established reputation within forum). Some time goes by and it turns out that the person who you were doing business goes to jail for blackmail / extortion / counterfeiting (whatever). The person had paid you inappropriate money....your bank account now contains "Tainted" money. (you performed the trade for a hacked item).

Should you now close up shop because someone gave you tainted money?

Instead of cash, maybe you bartered with the customer for a system which cost you thousands of dollars...should you destroy this system?

No, you go on with business and continue to do your research, credit checks, background checks etc with people.

Back to the original topic for D2.

Although I agree that you should delete the hacked items, that should be the end of the repercussions.

Personally, I would also restore the original items you traded, but again some may consider this tainting.

For example, if I traded a WF for a Stormlash (I wish for both), and it turned out that the WF was tainted. I would find the email I had originally sent, and restore the Stormlash back into my stash.

[For anyone who wonders, I've never received tainted goods (to my knowledge), so have never done this. I do keep my stashes within email trades, but for the purpose of having a history of all of my transactions in case I need support for where an item came from that was not self-found.]