OT: The SPF Mafia Game Round Three

why do I need to be replaced? I must've missed something. I've been sorta keeping up with the thread... must have missed a page or something.

No vote from me at this point. I have no idea as to who is mafia... other than that some people were late and the mafia didn't make a kill. But the mafia could easily have realized a player hadn't been on in a few days (you can find this info easily via forum profiles) and decided not to kill someone in order for the townies to do their work for them the first day.

If I were mafia, and I of course am not, I would promote just such a plan of action. This way there's 1 person dead, but the townies did it for them, and there's nothing to go by to try and figure out who did it.
 
No vote from me at this point. I have no idea as to who is mafia... other than that some people were late and the mafia didn't make a kill. But the mafia could easily have realized a player hadn't been on in a few days (you can find this info easily via forum profiles) and decided not to kill someone in order for the townies to do their work for them the first day.

If I were mafia, and I of course am not, I would promote just such a plan of action. This way there's 1 person dead, but the townies did it for them, and there's nothing to go by to try and figure out who did it.

It's a flawed plan even if it works, and if you would promote such a plan, I hope someone takes that into consideration in addition to me.

I'm getting the feeling day one is going to be a huge (expletive) waste of time. We're probably going to squander this extra lynch opportunity in favor of those who would delay for more "information", the only person who can know the truth is the cop, yet we won't be able to trust him or her when they come out. I should say if s/he comes out.


 
As long as we're on the probability of things (such as townies being more likely to be lynched), it's also quite probable that we have deceptive posts from the mafia in this thread, already seeking to divide the town, and waiting a day would give us more of this faulty "information". They probably don't care about whether the failure to kill on the first night was a blunder or some overly complicated plan to deceive us and annoy the host.

For those depending on the cop to save us: the mafia already know who the innocent townies are. They can imitate the cop at any time, if they should get lucky, the real cop will be dead at the time. We'll lose if we follow people claiming to be the cop blindly.

We need to lynch at every opportunity we can get, not waste them.
 
It's hard not to play the meta-game. I have been keeping an eye on the late-comers.

First, Jaedhann comes up with a weak excuse for not posting. Sorry, doesn't wash.
Then, Moar takes Neksja's place. Which is convenient; wipes the slate clean.
And finally, Drixx announces himself with flawed justification for the mafia's (in)action.

Jaedhann and Drixx are definitely on my suspects list. Moar, I'm not so sure. I think she has a night role, considering skoolbus replaced Neksja before he replaced Drixx, but I'm not sure she's mafia. Or am I reading way too much into this?

Vote: Jaedhann

BTW, hope all's well with Neksja.
 
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For those depending on the cop to save us: the mafia already know who the innocent townies are. They can imitate the cop at any time, if they should get lucky, the real cop will be dead at the time. We'll lose if we follow people claiming to be the cop blindly.

All the Mafia knows, is who the townies are. Period. There are no non-innocent townies. The only clues us townies have to go on, is what people say here. Whether or not we take what is said as fact or fiction, that is up to the individual.

Based on what has been said today, my suspect list still includes Thyiad, RK and Jaago has been added to this list based on a couple of his posts.

And just so people know, my job has changed some, and I'm now a job supervisor working in the field building homes. I have no computer access (much less internet) during the day, so my posts will be limited to early morning, or evening, except on the weekends.

I understand some newcomers hesitancy to post, and say your thoughts, but silence can be deadly. There is also a fine line between speaking to much of your mind (Brak), and not speaking enough, or rather when to say little.

This is a tough game people, but we have to play it. Sitting on our behinds, swaying back and forth tossed between truths and semi-truths is only an advantage for the Mafia. I'm of the strong opinion that the Mafia missed their chance to murder someone last night. I also believe that the opportunity was missed because of lack of input (read PM) to skoolbus. There have been many things said today that if people re-read, will help support my theories. Read it for yourselves, and make your own determinations.

As far as Thyiad goes...well, I think she might be playing the Village Idiot (please, take no personal offense). Her jumping blindly to vote someone out, and persistance to do so leads me to this decision.

Vote: RevantsKnight (sorry if I mis-spelled this).



 
All the Mafia knows, is who the townies are. Period. There are no non-innocent townies. The only clues us townies have to go on, is what people say here. Whether or not we take what is said as fact or fiction, that is up to the individual.

I was meaning to say the mafia already knows the important information the cop wants, all they're missing is the special (and the vigilante isn't innocent) town roles. Giving them free murder opportunities will come back to haunt us.

jrlafrance, bold your vote...


 
Sorry guys. I've been busy the last couple days, and I honestly didn't have time to do more than glance at this thread. That's why apparantly Skoolbus thought I wasn't paying attention or participating.

As for suspecting me because of my logic... that's your call. Remember Brak last round is all I'm gonna say about that.

That said... think it through.

I refuse to believe every single mafia person was inactive for the huge time allotted for them to send in who to kill. The mafia would not have wasted their chance to kill if only one hadn't shown up to put their 2 cents in. Unless I misunderstand the way the mafia works... all the host needs is one PM from them on who to kill.

Therefore, I conclude that the mafia intentionally decided not to kill the first night. If that's the case, the question is why? They would only pass up their opportunity to murder if it presented a solid risk/reward situation for them. The only reward I could think of earlier (or now) is that we would be looking for someone who was inactive in the assumption that the mafia must have been inactive and that's why they didn't kill.

This assumption/argument was made in this thread.

Their risk is that we'll lynch one of them. They must assume their risk is low, therefore they weren't inactive.

That's my thought process. Take it for what it's worth. I'll read more deeply in the morning, but I haven't seen anything that makes me think "mafia" yet.
 
I was meaning to say the mafia already knows the important information the cop wants, all they're missing is the special (and the vigilante isn't innocent) town roles. Giving them free murder opportunities will come back to haunt us.

jrlafrance, bold your vote...

Everyone is innocent until proven guilty (or s/he kills someone) in the country! (even the vigilante).



 
Now that I have read the thread again, I agree that we should not pass on the chance to lynch. The problem is just to know who to lynch. There's definitely not enough information available to make a qualified decission.
Right now the risk of picking someone innocent is too high for my taste.

Hmm...I'm off to work now. I hope I can read the forums there, haven't tried it yet.
 
I've been thinking on this and come round to the idea that we need to lynch someone, even if we don't have much information to go on at this point.

If we do nothing, then in terms of townies vs mafia it's 18 vs 3

If we lynch, then the worst case is we hit a townie, 17 vs 3
At this point that's not too different from doing nothing.

If we hit a mafia though, it becomes 18 vs 2, we go from having six townies per mafia member to nine.

There are currently a few people who I don't trust, but it's hard to know at the moment whether any of that is accurate. Still:
vote: Jaedhann

I'm sorry, but in this game the discussion is one of the strongest leads we have to go on in working out who's mafioso and who isn't. One of the strong themes of today has been what information we know and what we don't, and if you're not willing to share that or contribute towards it then that looks pretty shady to me.
 
Vote water_moon

Either both she and goltar are mafia or townies. The fact wm is supporting no lynching, a tactic that favours the mafia, I believe she is mafia.

Interesting. Though you might be right on their roles, as far as I see it it's also possible one of them is mafia and the other not. Why do you think both are on the same side?

On another note, why does no lynching favour the mafia at this point? As you might be aware, last game I pointed out that it was better to lynch no one than to lynch another townie. The person who jumped on that was Skoolbus, leading me to suspect him as mafia to play the witness card since he'd already voted for me, and I did not want to get lynched, in the end Skoolbus was murdered by the mafia as well (remember the schoolbus?).

The difference is that this time, no one was killed, so there is no reason to lynch anyone. Anyway, the chance of the village idiot being lynched (and thus an instant loss) is just too big, although you seem to be the main contender for that role.

This time a few different people are jumping at people who vote to lynch no one, apart from you, there's also Jaago, who acted much like Skoolbus did in last game. And, I don't think it was clearly concluded last game that it was best to still lynch someone even if you haven't got a clue. Besides, there's a new variable in play, the village idiot. In addition, there is one mafia member less, and I think there are more participants in total, so the chance of lynching a mafia member is lower. The chance of lynching the village idiot is thus also low, but it's far more damage (instant loss) than lynching a townie. As far as I'm concerned, those people jumping on people who vote to lynch nobody due to lack of information might be townies (as Skoolbus turned out to be last game), or might be mafiosi (thinking that everyone knows that Skoolbus turned out to be a townie).

Now there is one thing, Goltar did misunderstand the role of the village idiot and thought that the village idiot would win if killed by the mafia. So it might be that the mafia thought as well they should not kill anyone out of fear of killing the village idiot. If Goltar is mafia that's all the more likely.

Now Jaago and Goltar were the first to reply during the day, making it unlikely that they're mafia. However, it might be that they thought that by replying quickly people would think that since the mafia was sleeping or so they would sort of prove their innocence.

On another note, Goltar, you said you've got some ideas about Water_Moon's role, care to share? Now she said she'd seen the doctor out and about, so that could mean she's the cop and investigated the person who is the doctor, or it's just roleplaying in response to Skoolbus mentioning that the doctor did send a pm.

And to Skoolbus, you mentioned the doctor being active, and it seems pretty obvious (also from what you wrote) the mafia as a group was not active. It could be that the crooked detective by him- or herself did at least send a pm indicating no one would be taken into custody, so everyone would get the chance to discuss matters and make themselves suspect. I feel that by indicating that the doctor was active, the mafia was not, and no word on the rest there is something unbalanced. I'm not sure it's a good idea, but it might be, to reveal whether the others that should pm you each night did so this first night. You do not risk revealing whether any of the roles are still alive or not since everyone was still alive during the first night. If, in the future, something similar occurs, please don't reveal that you only got a pm from role X, since that would reveal that role X is still alive at that point. Also, it might be best to extend the day or night if someone signals in advance (s)he will not be able to sent a pm or participate in the discussion (such as Moar the coming weekend). Even if it concerns a night and the person in question does not have a night role, since the person in question could theoretically have a night role. Another option would be, if it is almost night and it looks someone who is going to be absent is not going to be lynched, for that person to sent you a pm in advance, there are however two roles where this is not really an option, the masons who would lose the chance to discuss during the night, and the crooked detective, who might accidentally take the same person into custody as the mafia kills (any other mafioso could simply leave the decision to his/her brothers in crime).



 
Vote No one

Why? Well, we technically skip day one plus night one this way, except that the cop gets a headstart on the investigation. We're not actually wasting anything. If anyone is alive next night, the mafia have their best opportunity to kill the village idiot, provided he's acting suspiciously enough and they have their heads on their shoulders. Catch my drift? ;)
 
Vote Lord Nikon

Lord Nikon's reasoning is simply wrong, both mathematically and logically. We know that by failing to lynch someone, we almost always benefit the mafia, and that statistically speaking, the risk of killing an innocent townsperson at this stage of the game is a good trade for the chance to reduce the mafia's numbers.

Nikon has put forward the false idea that we would somehow be "ahead" if we don't lynch someone on two separate occasions now (once at the beginning of the "day," and once just now). I have to wonder whether LN is misdirecting the townsfolk on purpose.
 
Sorry if this post sounds a little back-and-forth. I haven't been able to come up with something conclusive, but I did do a lot of thinking. And as multiple people pointed out, it's better to speak an unfinished thought in this game than to risk being killed before it's finished. So here goes...

I've been thinking about the strategies employed by people in the previous games. The mafia mostly played low profile. In the absence of hard arguments it was usually a very quiet or very argumentative person that got lynched. Seeing that, I'd expect the mafia to try and keep a balance. So no Sint or Rashiminos there (I think...). Taking it a step further, I'd expect the village idiot to seek one of the two extremes.

Of course, it's pretty unlikely that I'm the only one who has come up with this train of thought. It's very well possible that some or all of crucial roles are deliberately playing a different game this time. But that ends up being circle-reasoning, so I think I'll go by my reasoning in the previous paragraph.

I'd also like to point out that the not-lynching-is-mafia-tactics argument is pretty shoddy. As the two previous games have shown, a competent mafia actually benefits a great deal from the lynching. The way I see it, they get two kills a day. One sure-fire but suspicious, the other one requiring some good subterfuge but hardly detectable if played right.

There's also a few arguments against some other people that I'd like to discuss. First the finger-pointing against Thyiad for throwing out a seemingly random accusation. While I agree that such a thing is a little suspicious, it's also exactly what she did last game. She ended up being innocent then. I also believe that water_moon's comment about the doctor being up at night is just role playing. I don't have any evidence of this, it's just something I would expect from her.

I've been re-reading this thread trying to see who would fit my "profile". So far, Jaedhann, Jaago and RevenantsKnight have made my suspect list. I also agree that Lord Nikon has been a bit strange, but my gut doesn't buzz mafia when I look at his posts. Also, as I pointed out, I don't think saying "no lynching" is really a sign of mafia.

Out of the first three only RK seems to have voted. Since that vote was, in my opinion, rather sudden and against someone I think is innocent:

Vote: RevenantsKnight
 
Vote No one

Why? Well, we technically skip day one plus night one this way, except that the cop gets a headstart on the investigation. We're not actually wasting anything. If anyone is alive next night, the mafia have their best opportunity to kill the village idiot, provided he's acting suspiciously enough and they have their heads on their shoulders. Catch my drift? ;)

The cop isn't reliable until s/he can point out the special townie roles while the cop and those roles are still alive. Since the cop or those roles might be murdered, waiting to lynch is absurd.

Even though there's less mafia in this game than in the last, there's still several of them, there's only one idiot (though some of us might beg to differ). Let me put it this way, failing to lynch is analogous to wasting a doctor save.


 
Sorry if this post sounds a little back-and-forth. I haven't been able to come up with something conclusive, but I did do a lot of thinking. And as multiple people pointed out, it's better to speak an unfinished thought in this game than to risk being killed before it's finished. So here goes...

I've been thinking about the strategies employed by people in the previous games. The mafia mostly played low profile. In the absence of hard arguments it was usually a very quiet or very argumentative person that got lynched. Seeing that, I'd expect the mafia to try and keep a balance. So no Sint or Rashiminos there (I think...). Taking it a step further, I'd expect the village idiot to seek one of the two extremes.

Of course, it's pretty unlikely that I'm the only one who has come up with this train of thought. It's very well possible that some or all of crucial roles are deliberately playing a different game this time. But that ends up being circle-reasoning, so I think I'll go by my reasoning in the previous paragraph.

I'd also like to point out that the not-lynching-is-mafia-tactics argument is pretty shoddy. As the two previous games have shown, a competent mafia actually benefits a great deal from the lynching. The way I see it, they get two kills a day. One sure-fire but suspicious, the other one requiring some good subterfuge but hardly detectable if played right.

There's also a few arguments against some other people that I'd like to discuss. First the finger-pointing against Thyiad for throwing out a seemingly random accusation. While I agree that such a thing is a little suspicious, it's also exactly what she did last game. She ended up being innocent then. I also believe that water_moon's comment about the doctor being up at night is just role playing. I don't have any evidence of this, it's just something I would expect from her.

I've been re-reading this thread trying to see who would fit my "profile". So far, Jaedhann, Jaago and RevenantsKnight have made my suspect list. I also agree that Lord Nikon has been a bit strange, but my gut doesn't buzz mafia when I look at his posts. Also, as I pointed out, I don't think saying "no lynching" is really a sign of mafia.

Out of the first three only RK seems to have voted. Since that vote was, in my opinion, rather sudden and against someone I think is innocent:

Vote: RevenantsKnight

Of course the mafia benefits when a townie is lynched, that's not the point. It's when we trade our lynches away for mafia murders that not lynching becomes a problem. There's only 3 mafia, they aren't necessarily able to steer the voting, so either they're keeping a low profile, or they covering themselves for later rounds.

Note here how muzzz has put a couple of popular votees on his suspect list as well as the guy who was randomly firing off and accusing a guy that muzzz wishes to claim as an innocent villager. Strange, very strange...

I was going to wait the night to see how muzzz's absence and guilt (or lack thereof) panned out, but I read something amiss.

Unvote: Jaago
Vote: muzzz


 
The cop isn't reliable until s/he can point out the special townie roles while the cop and those roles are still alive. Since the cop or those roles might be murdered, waiting to lynch is absurd.

Even though there's less mafia in this game than in the last, there's still several of them, there's only one idiot (though some of us might beg to differ). Let me put it this way, failing to lynch is analogous to wasting a doctor save.

Mathematically speaking, failing to lynch tips the scales against the townies slighly. But sometimes you can't put things into a neat little equation and say that it applies as a firm rule.

There are other factors to consider that haven't been included in these "proven calculations".

Nobody has conclusively responded to my latest post... and so I will continue to stay at no vote.



 
Nobody has conclusively responded to my latest post... and so I will continue to stay at no vote.

My argument at the start of the day was that we should look at the inactive players and the newbie players. That still holds.

I'm not going along with idea that all 3 were inactive because I have information contrary to that idea. However, it's probable that one or two mafia were inactive, and the third one thought it would be good cover if they didn't do anything. If all 3 were in on the conspiracy, skoolbus wouldn't have had to wait so long to start day one, unless town forbid the cop or vigilante was asleep. The newbie mafia probably placed too much value in the strategy and forgot that the idiot should probably be murdered (can't trust the town to avoid lynching him/her) and that pesky roles like the cop, doctor, vigilante, and the masons need to be eliminated. That's 6 nights of murder that this new mafia should not have delayed on. Even better for the mafia if the town helps out. So no, I really can't see this being a grand masterful design to misdirect the town as opposed to one mafia (at most two) saving his/her arse without a reason to do so on the first night.

In all likelihood the first kill would have revealed next to nothing. It's a lower risk for the whole game than the "inactive" strategy.


 
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