OT: Nethack

Re: OT: Nethack

edit: Concerning Floating Eyes, I was told that if you're blind their gaze is ineffective. Wisest course of action, though, is to steer clear! I learned that one the hard way, too. :doh:

Some good ways to combat them are to blindfold yourself, (a)pply a mirror at them(they'll paralyze themselves), or have a ring of free action(can't be paralyzed). Or you can just ignore them :D.


 
Re: OT: Nethack

This game is waay harder than I remember (or maybe I'm more foolish than I was last time I played).

As my average char lasts to about clvl 4, I haven't bothered adding myself yet. Once I'm much happier with what I'm doing, I'll add myself to the table, and stop making characters with stupid names.
 
Re: OT: Nethack

Some good ways to combat them are to blindfold yourself, (a)pply a mirror at them(they'll paralyze themselves), or have a ring of free action(can't be paralyzed). Or you can just ignore them :D.

on Floating Eyes. I always throw things at them: darts, daggers, etc. Just get them into an open room, throw stuff at them and then let them move so you can collect your weapons. Biggest risk here is that your pet will eat the corpse before you get to it so close the door or something.

CG correct me if I'm wrong but I believe you can throw cursed daggers/darts as long as you DO NOT wield them so you don't have to worry about B/U/C status.



 
Re: OT: Nethack

Regarding floating eyes: In addition to what Smips listed, the simplest option is to just throw things at them - you will only get paralyzed in melee. You can even throw things from immediately next to them with impunity. When I say "things", by the way, I really mean just about anything. Darts and daggers are the obvious, but you can also throw arrows and bolts (even without a bow or crossbow), or even rocks. Or food rations (though they don't do much damage). Or tins (which are metal so IIRC hurt about as much as rocks). Or battle axes. Just toss whatever you've got lying around at them. If you run out of things to toss, move a step away and rest until they come towards you, then pick up your pile of tossables and start again. Just avoid meleeing them while sighted and not reflecting and not wearing free action.

Regarding branches: Even aside from the dungeon tile set (which sounds like it is a perfectly good indication), the easiest way to tell is that in the mines the level layout changes completely - in the dungeons, it's rooms with corridors. In the mines, it's one big room with very irregular walls (which, I might add, is full of gnomes, with a bit of dwarves and orcs). As already mentioned, the gnomish mines are a second set of down stairs between dlvls 2 and 5. Sokoban is a second set of up stairs that always occurs on the level after the oracle. The oracle is a large room in the center of the level (which is somewhere between dlvl 6 and 10ish - guessing on these numbers, but they're approximately right) containing a bunch of statues and an inner room with four fountains and a person you can pay money to to hear hints/rumors (for the most part, the same things that are periodically written on floors as graffiti or that come out of fortune cookies). Sokoban consists of small levels that are pre-mapped and contain a large number of boulders. Neither the mines nor sokoban are necessary to finishing the game (and both of them result in dead ends, though they're dead ends with some very useful goodies), but they are highly recommended (whenever you're ready for them - it is advisable to wait on entering the mines until clvl 5-8, and while I wouldn't really place a level requirement on sokoban, the dungeon levels between you and it are rather dangerous as compared to the early levels).

Regarding levelling in general and early game strategy: This paragraph is purely personal opinion, and I will admit up front that I'm a bit more cautious than is necessary in NH3.4.3 - this is a habit I developed in slash'em where I think it's pretty necessary. With that being said, I very rarely die in the very early game to anything over which I have control due in large part to this. I (generally speaking) stay on level 1 until I've reached clvl 3. This can take a bit (particularly with bad monster spawns - I let my pet kill any 1xp monsters (newts, jackals, kobold zombies, grid bugs)), I'd say 750-2500 turns with an average around 1750 (so there's at least one prayer and often two before I leave dlvl 1). After this, I try to get to a minimum of two clvls above my dlvl before moving on (stay on dlvl 2 until clvl 4, dlvl 3 until clvl 5, etc) until I reach roughly clvl 7 (this is a pretty arbitrary breakpoint, but it coincides pretty nicely with where it starts becoming much harder to level quickly, and is also a level at which a large amount of classes gain an intrinsic). I personally (whenever possible) put off the mines until this point, as well - the exception is times when I'm playing something where the majority of the mines will be peaceful (e.g. a gnome).

edit: pwned by ohg; you can throw cursed ammunition with impunity, but as you said, DO NOT wield it. You do have a chance of "slipping" while attempting to throw something cursed. If you've got something uncursed, it's a better choice, but definitely throw cursed ammo rather than attack in melee.

-CG
 
Re: OT: Nethack

I've managed to weld a halberd to my hands! Does anyone have any ideas how I'd get it off, as I'm a bit hampered...

edit: never mind, shuffled off the mortal coil (again)
 
Re: OT: Nethack

@Moo: Prayer will (probably) fix it and is your safest option if you don't have a scroll/spell of remove curse or a vial of holy water. Dipping it in fountains will eventually fix it, but has fairly decent odds of killing you before it does if you're not rather buff. In the future, the best practice is to let your pet try to walk over anything before you put it on ("pet test") - pets will not step on cursed equipment (actually, they'll only rarely step on cursed equipment, generally when forced, and you'll get the message "<Petname> moves only reluctantly.")

Something else I wanted to add related to dungeon branches: While I was rereading SiTro's post, I got the impression he might be asking if there's a way to tell which stairs go where before going down them. No, there isn't, however, at all times, if you find a new staircase, immediately go down then right back up, though feel free to pick up items very close to you and feel free to move a tiny bit until you find a wall to figure out if it's the mines or not. The #1 reason for this is that, when you inevitably hit a hole/trapdoor, you will know where the stairs back up are. The #2 reason is that this will generate the level while you're (potentially) lower level, so the monsters will be less strong.

-CG
 
Re: OT: Nethack

One of my previous attempts was really lucky, with me finding a +1 hawaiian shirt and helm of brilliance before dlvl3. Then somehow i missed the entrance of mines and found myself next to oracle. I thought doing the sokoban before mines would be a nice change. Will never do it again =(, i couldn't even reach sokoban entrance. I saw my cat killed in a corridor before i could see what did it. And then a yeti blocked my escape and hit me to death. I could have turned back to flee but i thought yeti would be easier than the pet killer.

Anyways, had 2 more YASDs after that one but my current character is going well at the stairs of the Sokoban. I visited the minetown first this time, and found enough +1,2,3 items to put me at AC -10 (even have a ring of protection +2) on the way. I also found and killed a unicorn just before the room to Sokoban, and to my luck the room with stairs also had an altar. I was neutral, unicorn was chaotic and the altar was lawful so i sacrificed the unicorn and converted the altar.

Here is a question: Since CG was trying too hard to convert an altar, and now i have one next to me, what is it good for? Couldn't find anything specific in wiki.

Also i have tons of scrolls with me with no idea about them. I assume one to be identify due to price check but what is the best method to identify others. Maybe just forget about them?
 
Re: OT: Nethack

Altars are extremely good for a few things:

(1) You can definitively and easily tell whether any item is blessed, cursed, or uncursed by dropping items on it. This can be done regardless of whether the altar is converted.

(2) If you sacrifice enough stuff, your god will reward you with a gift. The gift in question is usually (though not always) an artifact weapon. Many classes have a guaranteed first gift which is particularly geared for their class (though other classes can use it and can receive it as a gift). For barbarians, their first gift is Cleaver (a battle axe that does a substantial amount of extra damage and, incidentally, what my barb was wearing when he reached demigodhood). If you've got enough food and can handle what's nearby, it is often not a bad idea to sit around and sacrifice corpses until you get a gift, though if you start running out of food, stop and come back later. Be warned that receiving a gift from your god will reset your prayer timeout, so be sure you can pray again before trying to.

(3) It allows you to check whether or not you can safely pray. If you attempt to sacrifice something and you have "a hopeful feeling", you cannot safely pray (though you just got closer to being able to). If you have (IIRC) "a feeling of reconciliation", you were not previously able to safely pray but are now. If there is no message, or "a four leafed clover appears at your feet", you can safely pray. For the record, if you're in sufficient amounts of trouble, prayer will sometimes succeed even if you "can't safely pray", so it's still worthwhile to try if the only alternative is death.

(4) The reason I'm usually talking about trying to convert altars is that if you are standing on an altar and have potions of water dropped on the altar and you pray, you are doing what's known as a water prayer. If successful, it will convert all the potions of water into potions of holy water, which can then be used to bless items or uncurse items. You can turn potions of (something useless) into potions of water by dipping them in to fountains (and a few other ways, but this is the easiest). Be advised that anything bad that can happen from quaffing from fountains can also happen from dipping in fountains, but generally by the time you should be worrying about making holy water, you can take water demons, nymphs, and moccasins.

As a side note, while using a non-co-aligned unicorn expedites the process, you can convert an altar by sacrificing pretty much anything (though it sometimes takes a couple tries). Never, ever, ever sacrifice a corpse of a pet (personally, I refrain from sacrificing any cats and dogs just to be sure) unless you want an extremely displeased god. Never, ever, ever sacrifice a corpse of the same race as you (might only be limited to humans, I'm not sure, but I'd recommend not sacrificing either humans OR whatever race you are) unless you want to meet a major demon. There are, as always, exceptions, but they're rare and still not a good idea IMO.

Regarding scrolls and general identification: my personal method is to not use any scrolls until I know which one is identify and I have holy water. Blessed scrolls of identify have a 20% chance of identifying your entire inventory. After soko/mines end, you should have ID price-identified and should have a pretty large collection of unidentified crap. Bless all your scrolls of ID with that handy holy water I mentioned earlier, get everything you have that isn't identified in your inventory (dropping tools/armor/etc if necessary, but be careful something doesn't come up and pwn you), cross your fingers, and start reading blessed ID scrolls. You CAN price-id scrolls besides identify with varying degrees of certainty, and a variety of scrolls can be used by monsters which will cause you to identify them, and you can ultimately identify scrolls by reading them (which is potentially very bad), but I personally just wait until I can know for sure what they are. You may not necessarily want to wait, though, because this point (for me) doesn't generally come until the midgame, so you'll be without the benefit of basically any magic items for the entire early game.


Quick scroll price-id summary:
ID - base price of 20
Light - base price of 50 (not worth buying)
Enchant X - base price of 60
Enchant Y - base price of 80
Remove Curse - base price of 80
Everything else - base price of 100+ probably not worth your while for the moment.

I forget whether enchant armor is 60 and weapon is 80 or vice versa. The base price is modified by your charisma (check wiki/spoilers for exact modifiers), but the annoying thing is that there is a random 33% surcharge, and in case you didn't notice, at least a couple of things are spaced out such that base_price_A * 1.33 = base_price_B, so it is not always 100% certain.

If you want to be sneaky, though, when you're selling items (regardless of whether you accept the offer), your charisma is not factored in, so you will always receive either 50% of the unmodified base price, or 33% of the unmodified base price. The useful thing is that, unlike buying (where the particular item is going to be a fixed price no matter what you do), the shopkeeper makes a different offer each time you attempt to sell something, so you can repeatedly drop it, refuse the sale, pick it up, and try again to determine the exact base price. The drawback is that it has to be an item type the shopkeeper will buy. General stores are handy for this (and there is almost always one in minetown).

-CG

edit: With all this talk of altars, I just wanted to point something out. Do not attempt to convert the minetown altar. If it starts out coaligned, great, you can sacrifice at it and make holy water and whatever, but if not, just stick with using it to identify B/U/C. If you attempt to convert it, the priest will become rather annoyed and probably proceed to kill you very quickly. If you're high enough level you can take him, but it's a pretty high level.
 
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Re: OT: Nethack

Code:
-[B]SPF Leaderboard[/B]-
Forum Name           Char Name      Role    Attempts       Score
----------           ---------      ----    --------       -----
CG                   Larzuk         Bar            3     4354274A
CG                   Kashya         Rog            2      138880
midnightvulture      Trogdor        Bar            6       55224
Smips                Smips          Bar            6       41037
CG                   Ormus          Pri            1       40631
OHG                  Joe            Pri            3       35405
NacRuno              Qual           Bar           12       17040
TRM                  Moar           Bar           11       12737
Hp_Sauce             Hp_Sauce       Bar            8        9119
SiTro                SiTro          Bar            1         706
Vildecor             Ilana          Val            1           0

Code:
[b]Competition #1 - Role(Barbarian), Race(Any), Align(Any), Gender(Any)[/b]
End Date for Creation of New Chars: [b]3/31/09, 11:59 PM local time[/b]

Forum Name           Char Name      Attempts      Score  Current Progress
----------           ---------      --------      -----  ----------------
CG                   Larzuk                3    4354274A
midnightvulture      Trogdor               3      55224
Smips                Smips                 6      41037
NacRuno              Qual                 12      17040
TRM                  Moar                 11      12737
Hp_Sauce             Hp_Sauce              8       9119
SiTro                SiTro                 1        706

Code:
Competition #2 - Role(Priest), Race(Elf), Align(Chaotic), Gender(Any)
End Date for Creation of New Chars: [b]4/15/09, 11:59 PM local time[/b]

Forum Name           Char Name      Attempts      Score  Current Progress
----------           ---------      --------      -----  ----------------
CG                   Ormus                 1      40631
OHG                  Joe                   3      35405

Code:
[b]Competition #3 - Role(Rogue), Race(Any), Align(Any), Gender(Female)[/b]
End Date for Creation of New Chars: [b]4/30/09, 11:59 PM local time[/b]

Forum Name           Char Name      Attempts      Score  Current Progress
----------           ---------      --------      -----  ----------------
CG                   Kashya                2     138880

OK, OK. 11 attempts in, and the lesson learned after my most successful attempt was: retreat well before you get into trouble! First, got my AC to 4 by Dlvl3, then was lycanthroped and lost all my armor. I got to Dlvl8 without yet seeing the Oracle, so I kept truckin' along. Found a throne room and had to clear out better than a dozen monsters, was back attacked by rothes halfway through, then while resting I got blizzard shot & wall reflected by something like four or five frost wolves (or similarly named whatevers) & pyro-ed by a pyro-something. Still survived it, so I rounded up loot and was on my way back to the mines for the first time. Right in front of the stairs was another enemy I'd never seen before, a gremlin, that managed to five-shot shred me, not to mention cause hallucinate. A second risky prayer saved me, but I confused the enemy with my pet and got wasted. Not exactly YASD, but I should have retreated a heck of a lot faster.

Still, a score of 12,373 is almost four times my highest previous record so far, so I'm pleased. ...I also go sucked in and played for more than six hours today. :D Crazy, I'm telling you...
 
Re: OT: Nethack

For a good, good time, try meeting a gremlin on a level with water :)

My barb had a random gremlin spawn in the castle (well, not so much in the castle as just outside the castle in the moat). Loads of gg. Fortunately, by this point gremlins are a walking one-hit slight experience boost. Medusa's level (or Jubilex' level) is the best, though.

For everyone else's information, when you get gremlins wet, they multiply. Quickly. Fortunately, short of an overflowing fountain or a swamp level (which aren't very common and are mostly quite low in the dungeon), there's only standing water in a very small number of levels.

-CG


 
Re: OT: Nethack

To everyone who's been playing pretty much exclusively barbs: I've said barb is the best class to start with (and I picked it as the first comp) not purely because of it's excellent melee and durability, but because barbarians start the game with poison resistance. As the comp is ending in around a week, and I'm guessing at least some of you are going to move on to one of the other comps, I wanted to give you a bit of advice.

By now, you may have noticed that there are certain corpses that your pet won't eat, and that when you eat them, you get a message saying something very close to "Eew, that must have been poisonous. You don't seem to be affected by the poison." The most notable example at early levels is kobolds. You should start paying attention to which types of monsters those are, as once you stop playing barbs, you'll start having a lot of problems if you eat poisonous corpses - not only do you take some damage, but your maximum hit points and (more importantly, IMO) strength are lowered. There is a general test of if your pet will eat it, it's (probably) safe for you to eat, and healers and (more usefully) orcs also start with poison resistance, so if you continue to have problems with remembering which corpses are safe, you can still have PR, so it isn't necessary to memorize everything immediately, but it's a good idea to start paying attention.


On an unrelated topic, I'd like to relax the rule about having to put your name on the table before starting the char in order for it to count. As long as you definitively decide if you're doing this run "on the books" before you start the char, it's fine with me to wait until you die/save/whatever to update the table. I just figure this will cut down on rather pointless spam. If this is your first time putting your name on any table, I'd still like it if you say something first, but it's not a rule and it's exclusively out of interest as to who else has gotten sucked in.

-CG

edit: I am so spammy in this thread.
 
Re: OT: Nethack

I started a barbarian (and I am playing seriously, but do not expect to achieve anything worthy of the table), and immediately found a co-aligned altar in the room adjacent to my starting room. I assume that is a Good Thing (tm), and I have been using it to determine the B/U/C status of items (I found a blessed potion, but I do not yet know what it does). I have a large chest on the second floor in which I am storing items, as well. Is there anything in particular I should know about that altar besides what I already do?

Also, I keep trying to sacrifice corpses, but it keeps telling me that "nothing happens." What gives?
 
Re: OT: Nethack

You have to sacrifice fresh corpses (50 turns or less from death).

-CG

edit @below: I'd recommend only eating fresh corpses, as well.
 
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Re: OT: Nethack

@CG: Spam away! All the tips and tricks you hand out are always valuable nuggets of info for success. Keep 'em coming!

After I played for six hours yesterday, I got ready for bed. Then I went to the wiki to do some boning up. I ended up reading for four hours. Then I went to youtube to watch someone else play for 1.5 hours. In all, I got only two hours of sleep before I had to get up for work! I'm not going to get as obsessed today... I hope. :rolleyes:

I've been reading through all the options descriptions this morning. I sit rather far away from my monitor, and I managed to change the font sizes so I can stop squinting to read the masses of text. However, I play with tiles and I haven't yet found a way of either increasing the tile sizes or manipulating/forcing screen resolution. I can read stuff, but I still can't really see the game itself from a normal playing distance. Anyone have any suggestions, besides manually adjusting my monitor's resolution? Thanks!
 
Re: OT: Nethack

After I played for six hours yesterday, I got ready for bed. Then I went to the wiki to do some boning up. I ended up reading for four hours. Then I went to youtube to watch someone else play for 1.5 hours. In all, I got only two hours of sleep before I had to get up for work! I'm not going to get as obsessed today... I hope. :rolleyes:

Ahahahaha! That really is obsessive behaviour. Mind you, it's only obsessives who really get things done.

I'm probably not going to be able to enter competitions, as the complexity and sheer volume of information (I can't remember any of the keys, and angrily kept trying combinations of "d", "D", "alt-d", and "ctrl-d" for ages before going to wikihack to find out that drink is "q") is a bit much for my addled brain.

I'm on character 150,001 now, and things seem to be going well-ish. Top game though, I can feel my own obsession growing...



 
Re: OT: Nethack

@Moo: IIRC, if you press "?", you'll get a list of all the commands. Much faster than checking wikihack, and much safer than trying random letters. ("a d"/"Break your wand of lightning"/"y"/"DYWYPI?") Also, you'll start remembering (at least the frequently used) commands pretty quickly if you stick with the game. There is an extremely large volume of information to absorb, but it's (at least the commands) are actually organized fairly logically once you get used to them. And the infrequently used commands still have "?" for reference, which doesn't take a turn to use (and this isn't diablo so you can have any given turn take hours if needed.)

@TRM: Sadly, I can't offer any support for tiles, though I can recommend that you play the game the way it was meant to be played, in ASCII! ASCII FTW. You'd also start understanding what we mean when OHG and I (not to mention a lot of the spoilers) refer to " or ? or yellow c or whatever.

Regarding Options: I strongly suggest Autopickup=Off and RestOnSpace=Off. Most of the others boil down to personal preference and appearance, but both of those can kill you quite easily. Autopickup can cause you to become stressed accidentally in the middle of a fight (or pick up a cockatrice corpse without gloves for an immediate YASD). RestOnSpace makes it really easy to accidentally miss a turn (or seven) while trying to get through battle spam. You can still pick up objects with "," and rest with ".".

-CG
 
Re: OT: Nethack

@CG: the help key is "h", but the reason I've been going straight to wikihack is so I can have a browse about and try to get more of a hold on the game mechanics.

Thank you for acting as "Nethack guru" on this thread, it is greatly appreciated.
 
Re: OT: Nethack

I had lots of work lately so i couldn't play as much as i wanted. But my char turned from lucky to very lucky. I used CG's strategy and stocked some holy water at the altar. I tried to get a sacrifice gift but after lots of attempts i gave up for the time being and headed for Sokoban. The last room was scary but i knew it was going to be. I used the E-word writing before opening the door and eventually made my way to the "bag of holding". I immediately blessed the bag and put all of the junk i was carrying in it.

After getting out of sokoban i succeded to identify all the items i can carry (scrolls, rings mainly) using two blessed identify scrolls in the process. I found one enchant armor among my scrolls and further enhanced my AC and decided to head for Mines End. On my way up i started to drink from fountains i left behind and after some battles with snakes a water demon was grateful for his release and granted me a wish =). I had not thought about such a thing till then but after reading some info from the wikihack i decided to wish for a "blessed greased +3 gray dragon scale mail" and received it :thumbup:

With an AC of -20, mines end was very easy after that point. I found a touchstone and luckstone from there and blessed both. Also found a blessed enchant armor scroll and used it while wearing only my GDSM, making it +5.

I also have a ring of teleport control and ring of levitation. Currently waiting next to my altar near sokoban entrance before going any further (DLVL:9, CLVL:12). Is there anything i should especially be careful about? I didn't go beyond my current location before but i really don't want to mess things up right now.

Nac.
 
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