OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

[UllaV]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

If all the best items in the game were so rare that they seemed completely unobtainable, we'd get frustrated and then go play something else.

I'm not sure about this. I'd say that because nobody has actually thought what is the best item in this game we don't know about it's unobtainability.

You might start with getting the the four best rare affixes in your favorite crafted item with best possible values or the best staffmods in your rare reroll or imbue with best affixes WPBV etc.

One must remeber that in D2 uniques are rare and rares are unique.

Ulla

 

[Nightfish]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

@Nightfish It's not like diablo is a lot more complicated ...

Yes. It is. I could list countless things in which D2 is more complex than TL. Here are a few:

Boss Mods
D2 has oodles of them. Some are pretty nasty. TL has... none. All bosses are the same.

Immunities
You cannot, in fact, do well with one single attack in D2. There are maybe 2-3 builds that only need one skill. Blessed hammer and Vengeance are the only ones I can think of right now. Everything else needs backup.

Attack Rating
In TL, everything hits automatically. One less statistic to balance in your build.

Skills in general
In TL, for each char, 15 of 30 skills are the same as on the other 2 chars. And they're passive.

Potions
In TL, the potion solves. You can literally drown your problems in pots. If you want to, you can drink 100 Potions in a row without ever leaving the battle. In D2, you'd better be done with your problems before you need potion #17 at latest.


The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.

It's like saying McDonald's Food is just as complicated as a 5 star restaurant. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a burger, but it's not exactly <insert fancy dish of your choice here>. If you enjoy it, good for you. For me, it's too simple. And too easy as well. But I do realise I am not the super-casual gamer that is the target audience of this game anyway. I wasted 20$ on it, but that's all runicgames are getting from me. They can definetly keep their MMO.

 

[Rhone]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

Ulla,

What you say supports my point rather than contradicting it, so perhaps I didn't explain myself well.

What I'm saying is that you can play D2 for a very long time without losing the possibility of finding items that are better (even if only by a little bit) than what you've already found. Take away that continuing possibility of finding something new and interesting (either because you were able to find everything worthwhile very quickly, or because everything worthwhile is as rare as a Zod), and D2 becomes just another game that people play a couple times and remove from their hard drives.

Shagsbeard has it right, basically (though I agree with NF that D2 hitting the sweet spot here is probably not by accident).

 

[PandadudeSP]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

Long rant reply aimed at Nightfish
Boss Mods
D2 has oodles of them. Some are pretty nasty. TL has... none. All bosses are the same.
TL bosses have boss mods. I don't believe they have as many as d2, but then again I haven't looked for a full list to compare or anything.

Immunities
You cannot, in fact, do well with one single attack in D2. There are maybe 2-3 builds that only need one skill. Blessed hammer and Vengeance are the only ones I can think of right now. Everything else needs backup.
This is true. On the other hand, immunities aren't even going to be in d3, so it doesn't seem like game developers are that into it. But I guess you're right.

Attack Rating
In TL, everything hits automatically. One less statistic to balance in your build.
Yup, but in torchlight there are other statistics. For example armor is actually useful and important, and all 4 of the stats you can place points in are actually useful. I'm sure you could mention other stats that aren't in TL and I could do the same for d2 so I'll leave it at that.

Skills in general
In TL, for each char, 15 of 30 skills are the same as on the other 2 chars. And they're passive.
True dat. Imo quality over quantity, every ability is actually useful. In d2 1/3 of the spells are only useful as prerequisites or for synergy bonuses (same effect as a passive only more limited). I don't think the number of useful active skills are higher in d2 than in TL. Sure you can make an inferno sorc, but really...
Potions
In TL, the potion solves. You can literally drown your problems in pots. If you want to, you can drink 100 Potions in a row without ever leaving the battle. In D2, you'd better be done with your problems before you need potion #17 at latest.
I guess? It's going to cost a lot of gold though (yeah and gold is balanced in TL so it's actually useful), so it wouldn't be very efficient to do it. But it's not like this isnt done in d2 with people dropping potions all over the ancients arena.

The list goes on, and on, and on, and on.
Yup

Not trying to convince anyone that TL is better than d2, just that it's a good diablo clone.

 

[Nightfish]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

TL bosses have boss mods. I don't believe they have as many as d2, but then again I haven't looked for a full list to compare or anything.

The full list is "extra strong" and "extra fast", as near as I can tell. Every fricking boss I see has these exact same mods. Plus they're fatter than normal bosses. Any other abilities were always just whatever the base monster has. That does not count as being special.

ImmunitiesThis is true. On the other hand, immunities aren't even going to be in d3, so it doesn't seem like game developers are that into it. But I guess you're right.

I'm not saying TL sucks compared to D3. Yet. I will say that after D3 is released. It sucks now, compared to D2. I am not following the D3 development closely but it has no relevance to my point anyway. I am comparing TL to the best ARPG I have. That is D2. When the time comes I will compare D3 to D2.

Yup, but in torchlight there are other statistics. For example armor is actually useful and important, and all 4 of the stats you can place points in are actually useful. I'm sure you could mention other stats that aren't in TL and I could do the same for d2 so I'll leave it at that.

Oh really? Because when I played Torchlight, that wasn't true AT ALL. My vanquisher was fine placing 80% of her points in Dex and 20% in Defence. Actually 100% Dex would have worked too. And yes, VH. And no, I don't die much. She doesn't even need to spend stat points on life or mana. Actually, that's not even an option. Those come automatically. So basically in TL you just push your base stats with no decision being necessary. Caster gets magic. Destroyer gets Strength. Vanquisher gets Dex. Plus some defence, maybe. Not that I needed defence. The only thing you chose is how much you buff your offense vs your defence.

In D2 you need to figure out how much Str you need for your gear, how much dex you need to block or for AR and how much vit you need to survive. I'll give you that D2 has a design flaw that energy is actually pointless, but that's it. I still need to think about my stats here. The only thing I think about in TL is why I can't automatically make all my points go to the single attribute that matters for my build.

True dat. Imo quality over quantity, every ability is actually useful. In d2 1/3 of the spells are only useful as prerequisites or for synergy bonuses (same effect as a passive only more limited). I don't think the number of useful active skills are higher in d2 than in TL. Sure you can make an inferno sorc, but really...

That's just ... Well, clearly you don't know much about D2, but really. That's just incredibly wrong. I've been able to do 50-ish mostly different guardians in D2. And I haven't done everything. In TL I am hardpressed to find 2 unique builds per class. And no: Passive + Spells Vanquisher, Passive + Spells Alchemist and Passive + Spells Destroyer are not 3 Unique Builds.

The balance in D2 isn't quite perfect, not all skills are useful. But it's damn closer to the mark than anything else I've seen. Torchlight isn't the worst try I've seen. But it's nowhere near the best I've seen either.

I guess? It's going to cost a lot of gold though (yeah and gold is balanced in TL so it's actually useful), so it wouldn't be very efficient to do it. But it's not like this isnt done in d2 with people dropping potions all over the ancients arena.

Uhm, what? Seriously, you're no where near reality anymore. I could buy thousands of potions and still not be broke. Money in TL is so easy to come by because all the items suck. Nothing I find is an upgrade over anything I have. And no, that is not just enchanted items, I enchanted nothing except my weapon. Armour and the other crap are just unneeded. I just identify and send my pet off to sell the swag and if I want to buy anything the -60% passive makes sure it's cheap.

I'm not even going to bother rebuffing your "omg people drop potions at the ancients" point. I'm pretty sure you can see it doesn't compare to the potion system in TL.


I'm not sure if you're getting this, but I am not telling you not to like Torchlight. I don't give a rat's *** if anyone likes or dislikes the game. All I'm saying is that it's not complex. And it is not. That doesn't in itself make it bad. It just makes it something I don't like to spend time on because I am seriously underchallenged there.



Peter Molyneux once said something that I think really defines good games. He said "Games are a series of interesting decisions".

Or something along those lines, it was a while back when I read that interview. It was when one of his games came out. Probably Black and White or whatever. And to me, that is pretty close to the mark.

In TL I don't feel like I need to make many decisions at all. It seems to be real easy to just bruteforce your way through anything.
Doesn't work like that in D2. If I don't have a good plan on how to deal with, say, Iron Maiden, I will fail. Horribly. And I can name a lot of other things that need a half decent plan to be dealt with at least. In Torchlight, neither in the regular 35 levels of dungeon, nor in the infinite dungeon, have I discovered anything that requires more than:

Step 1: Acquire Target
Step 2: Hold right mouse button
Step 3: Find more Targets

That's fine for some people. For me it's boring.

 

[Shagsbeard]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

In defense of torchlight... it has one strength that D2 doesn't have. They've released the developement tools. I think we might see some really good mods for torchlight once the fan-base gets active.

 

[UllaV]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

Ulla,

What you say supports my point rather than contradicting it, so perhaps I didn't explain myself well.

What I'm saying is that you can play D2 for a very long time without losing the possibility of finding items that are better (even if only by a little bit) than what you've already found. Take away that continuing possibility of finding something new and interesting (either because you were able to find everything worthwhile very quickly, or because everything worthwhile is as rare as a Zod), and D2 becomes just another game that people play a couple times and remove from their hard drives./QUOTE]

You're quite right. Like I've posted elsewhere I deleted all my stashes because I wasn't sure what was legitimately found and what not. So I found Pelta Lunata today I rejoiced because It was just another (11th) grailer for me.

Ulla

 

[DeathMaster]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

I fully agree with what Shagsbeard said. A good game is the one keeps people interested.

However, game mechanics is also important, at least, bad mechanics can destroy an otherwise good game.

For example, find a control system designed for turn based game, slightly modify it, use it for action RPG D2 like game. See how far everyone can play it, regardless how good the game "might" be for everything else. Or you might find great reward by keep playing the game, but you are forced to follow the exact order the game gives you (must use x class character, go to y place, and use z spell in w room n times), otherwise you don't get anywhere or the reward.

 

[Lyndar]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

Apparently I need to start a Vanquisher in torchlight. My 42ish alchemist is running into some stiff opposition in the infinite dungeon, and that's on normal. Skills with low weapon damage %s seem to have predictable scaling issues.

Anyway, progression in torchlight eventually becomes extremely difficult because gear progression past lvl 50ish does not exist, but the monsters keep getting tougher. That's a whole other issue. Infinite dungeon without infinite gear progression. Hmmm.

 

[Serdash]

Re: OT - D2 Clones, why do they suck?

I'm not even going to bother rebuffing your "omg people drop potions at the ancients" point.

I'll do it.

In D2, dropping a ton of potions at the ancients is one thing, but you eventually have to click around and pick them back up, and if you have 3 overpowered death machines with nasty mods running after you, you have a certain element of danger, if only a small one.

In Torchlight you can pack all 100 of those potions in a nice pretty set of stacks in your inventory and chug them indefinitely. You don't have to stop and pick them up or move them from your inventory. They're immediately at your fingertips. I started a game on normal(which I hear is far from the hardest or most challenging mode) and I find I drink a potion once every couple of dungeon levels. I'm sure this is different on harder difficulties, but I mean come on.

I think the game would've been better if all of the spells you were able to learn were put towards different classes rather than being able to be learned by you and your pet. I found a "high" level fireball spell somewhat early on and taught it to my pet, and by setting him to aggressive he was killing at a comparable pace to my own character.

Torchlight is an okay game, but it has little replay value after the first dungeon level. Since the next infinite number of levels are just repeats of the last. At least in D2 you only had to complete the same quests over again after you changed difficulties, and each act had it's own different "collect this item and return it, or kill this monster and report to me" quest. Not only did the quests have deeper meaning explained that developed the plot, they had decent rewards instead of some random magical or rare item that you'd sell for a piddly 20 GP before returning through your portal to continue the game, realizing you could've done without accepting the quest at all.