Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-ing!

[stephan]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I don't think this build is SIGNIFICANTLY slower and I think it requires less effort on the part of the player.

It is, however, significantly more expensive and when it doesn't kill Mephisto faster than budget builds you need a better justification for your build than being able to carry another 6 isted sword which increases your drops only marginally. Saving 3 mouse clicks does not count.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

But i've proven the speed of this build which could probably be sped up even further. You haven't shown me any proof that a budget meteorb can run this faster or as fast besides, this build is meant to get you more mf% not be faster, i think you're missing the whole point!

I said at the beginning of the guide that this build is for people who have the expensive items to test this out; this is not a normal build but a build for very experienced "rich" players... So, I don't have to justify the cost of the build!

 

[stephan]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Here's a rather crappy (how does youtube mangle the video quality so much?) vid of a standard Tal Meteorb without torch, anni or skillers doing it in 8 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KheB6s7tCJU

And this was with sloppy static and FO aiming, but I haven't played her for a while. So there you go.

 

[struikje]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Again, you are missing the point that has been shown to you over more then 4 pages. It may be as fast as you say it is. What we say, is that if you use that build to do 100 million meph runs, and lets say I use the same setup with perf topaz in the helmet, 2* gul, (and other obvious replacements) to do 100 million meph runs, and lets say Stephan takes a meteorb for 100 million meph runs, that the amount of wealth you have gained more then us vs the extra runes invested in your character will not hit break-even.

I hope you understand why I take 100 million, as only in high amounts of runs you can compare drops, as the dropsystem in diablo 2 is all about luck. I just took a high number, though I'm sure I can be wrong about the specific number.

there should be a rule for giving (repititively) wrong advice.

 

[lumpor]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Stephan, think of it like this: A sorceress can maybe do it in a third of the time. But then, the teleporting takes time too. Since the tyrannicide and sorceress teleport at the same speed, and the time less it takes for a sorc to kill mephisto is just like a tenth or something of the teleporting time, you can say the sorc does her runs like 10% faster or less.

But then when you consider the item quality that the tyrannicide gets compared to the sorceress, that's at the very least 50% better chance to find a useful item.

The sorceress can do like 1100 runs at the same length it takes for a tyrannicide to do 1000 runs, but the tyrranicide gets something useful like every fifth run while a sorc gets something like every 8th run.

1000/5=200
1100/7= less than 160

And if we look at real numbers: A good sorc has like 250% MF. The tyrannicide has around 600% MF, meaning getting uniques (and therefore items like griffons and deaths fathom) twice as often. So the calculation above was actualy meant to give even bigger results for the barb combared to the sorceress

Sure, the items may be costly, but after thousands of runs, the barb will have made up for it.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Stephan, think of it like this: A sorceress can maybe do it in a third of the time. But then, the teleporting takes time too. Since the tyrannicide and sorceress teleport at the same speed, and the time less it takes for a sorc to kill mephisto is just like a tenth or something of the teleporting time, you can say the sorc does her runs like 10% faster or less.

But then when you consider the item quality that the tyrannicide gets compared to the sorceress, that's at the very least 50% better chance to find a useful item.

The sorceress can do like 1100 runs at the same length it takes for a tyrannicide to do 1000 runs, but the tyrranicide gets something useful like every fifth run while a sorc gets something like every 8th run.

1000/5=200
1100/7= less than 160

And if we look at real numbers: A good sorc has like 250% MF. The tyrannicide has around 600% MF, meaning getting uniques (and therefore items like griffons and deaths fathom) twice as often. So the calculation above was actualy meant to give even bigger results for the barb combared to the sorceress

Sure, the items may be costly, but after thousands of runs, the barb will have made up for it.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of explaining that again !!

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Your not getting this tripe stickied callsign, and Mephiztopheleze comment was very constructive.

i try to be helpful where possible :whistling:

I found the following exchange particularly intriguing:

You cast your first Battle Cry on 4:45 and Mephisto dies at 4:56. That's 11 seconds. Any budget sorc can do that.

im off yeah, but i was measuring from when my mercenary first started stabbing him, anyway a cheap meteorb kills how fast? Because even a blizzard sorceress with more damage takes awhile to kill Mephisto. And you have to click constantly. I don't think this build is SIGNIFICANTLY slower and I think it requires less effort on the part of the player.

It is, however, significantly more expensive and when it doesn't kill Mephisto faster than budget builds you need a better justification for your build than being able to carry another 6 isted sword which increases your drops only marginally. Saving 3 mouse clicks does not count.

Here's a rather crappy (how does youtube mangle the video quality so much?) vid of a standard Tal Meteorb without torch, anni or skillers doing it in 8 seconds.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KheB6s7tCJU

And this was with sloppy static and FO aiming, but I haven't played her for a while. So there you go.

here, we have a tals meteorb sork, which can be put together for less than the cost of this guides armour alone, that can beat down this guides reccomended target of choice (hell meph) almost a full 30% faster than the build outlined here.

30%, thats a fair margin when you consider the relative costs involved.

But i've proven the speed of this build which could probably be sped up even further. You haven't shown me any proof that a budget meteorb can run this faster or as fast besides, this build is meant to get you more mf% not be faster, i think you're missing the whole point!

i think plenty of proof has been provided that a tals meteorber > this build.

I said at the beginning of the guide that this build is for people who have the expensive items to test this out; this is not a normal build but a build for very experienced "rich" players... So, I don't have to justify the cost of the build!

which completely fails to consider the idea that anyone rich enough to have this kind of gear just lying around, would probably be capable of coming up with any number of weird uses for it.

sheesh, i once saw a guy tossing around ideas for a PvM MF poison nec on the D2GD. his idea for a helm was an Ist/Ist Coa, so your certainly not the first person to have obscene ideas for mf characters.

but trying to justify the process because it saves on some mouseclicks, thats just PRICELESS and one of the best laughs i've had in ages. thanx, i needed a good chuckle.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Some forum junkies aren't worth the time...

That sorceress on youtube made a skilled mephisto run and took barely a little less time to kill Mephisto and with undoubtably at least half as much mf%....


You don't have to like every build; just because you don't want to make a build does not mean it's worthless.....

 

[stephan]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Stephan, think of it like this: A sorceress can maybe do it in a third of the time. But then, the teleporting takes time too. Since the tyrannicide and sorceress teleport at the same speed, and the time less it takes for a sorc to kill mephisto is just like a tenth or something of the teleporting time, you can say the sorc does her runs like 10% faster or less.

But then when you consider the item quality that the tyrannicide gets compared to the sorceress, that's at the very least 50% better chance to find a useful item.

The sorceress can do like 1100 runs at the same length it takes for a tyrannicide to do 1000 runs, but the tyrranicide gets something useful like every fifth run while a sorc gets something like every 8th run.

1000/5=200
1100/7= less than 160

And if we look at real numbers: A good sorc has like 250% MF. The tyrannicide has around 600% MF, meaning getting uniques (and therefore items like griffons and deaths fathom) twice as often. So the calculation above was actualy meant to give even bigger results for the barb combared to the sorceress

Sure, the items may be costly, but after thousands of runs, the barb will have made up for it.

Except that he hasn't.

His build has 14*30 (14 Ists if I count correctly) + 99 (Enigma)+ 40*3 (IK Helm, Gheeds, Chance guards) + 50 (WT) + 6*7 (MF charms) = 731% MF.

A standard Tal Sorc would have 168 (Tal Set) + 2*24 (2 PTopazes) + 2*30 (average Gheeds, low WT or rare MF boots + 1-2 charms) + 125 (Gul/Rhyme switch) = 401% MF

Compare drop odds for say an Arachs from Hell Meph:

731% MF: 1:919
401% MF: 1:1038

After 10,000 runs he has ~11 arachs and a Tal sorc ~9 (I'm being generous here for the barb here). With 11 Arachs he probably still has not reached the break-even point to afford his build while you can afford a Tal Sorc for the price of 1 or 1.5 Arachs.

That sorceress on youtube made a skilled mephisto run and took barely a little less time to kill Mephisto and with undoubtably at least half as much mf%....

That was a sloppy run, it was 25% faster than yours and your 300+ extra MF hardly does anything.

Again I ask you to justify the cost of the build. "Because I am that rich" doesn't count because I could think of more fun things to do running Meph all day long.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

You just proved yourself wrong lol, you just said that the mf barb is more efficient, case closed!

The cost of the build is not disputed, read the beginning of the guide.


A reminder Everyone! This guide is now on YOUTUBE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxEX0vZC7y8

 

[stephan]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

You just proved yourself wrong lol, you just said that the mf barb is more efficient, case closed!

You can't read very well. I just showed you that after 10,000 runs you are probably still paying back the cost of your build while a Tal sorc has made a very nice profit.

We don't need a guide to show that 700% MF gives slightly better chances at items than 400%. We knew that already, thank you.

The cost of the build is not disputed, read the beginning of the guide.

What's the point of making an MF build that will never be able to pay for even its own gear? You simply can't justify the cost, and that's why you are constantly dodging the question.

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

What's the point of making an MF build that will never be able to pay for even its own gear? You simply can't justify the cost, and that's why you are constantly dodging the question.

note: this is version three of this saga of tragedy, he's been flamed into oblivion twice before and still thinks he has the greatest build ever.

it's utterly pointless trying to get CSA to admit that this build is totally inefficient in terms of cost/benefit. the diminishing returns on magic-find when it comes to rares/sets/uniques just don't figure in his thinking, he's taking the "more mf always gives a benefit no matter how small" theory to the n'th degree here.

 

[struikje]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

You just proved yourself wrong lol, you just said that the mf barb is more efficient, case closed!

The cost of the build is not disputed, read the beginning of the guide.


A reminder Everyone! This guide is now on YOUTUBE!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KxEX0vZC7y8

Get your head out of the sand, and please explain why the cost of the build shouldn't be discussed. It is one of the most important factors for me to make a build.

 

[lumpor]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

In the long run a tyrannicide is still better. Remember that barbs have no trouble surviving whatsoever, and they won't go into hit recovery, which sorcs may do, and that takes time. Also, some item may be hard to find for trade, so you can't get those items for ists. At the cost of some ists, you get more uniques. It's just like buying them with ists, and sometimes you even get items which have a hard time being bought. Not to mention it's more fun to MF with a barb, and once it's built you can only gain from it

 

[Painman]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Well, all I can say is... by the time I have the wealth to construct such a creature, Hell Meph is of little to no use to me. What's he going to drop for me that's so special... Arachnid Mesh? Facets? I can find those things elsewhere, along with Griff's, etc.

All those Ists? I've probably used that wealth to gank out my Meteorb, my Zealot/Smiter, a Fishymancer, a Faith/Fort Bowazon with Pride merc, maybe a sick WW barb as well... and I sure as hell didn't accrue it by running Meph. I got it by using these toons as a Key and Organ/Uber running team.

Bottom line: After one's account reaches a certain state of maturity, **** Hell Meph. He becomes a waste of time. This build becomes a waste of time. If you're rich enough to put it together... Why in the name of G-d are you still down in Durance 3 going through the motions of Amateur Hour?

I consider the above to be Constructive Criticism, whether the OP agrees or not. :yes:

 

[struikje]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

In the long run a tyrannicide is still better. Remember that barbs have no trouble surviving whatsoever, and they won't go into hit recovery, which sorcs may do, and that takes time. Also, some item may be hard to find for trade, so you can't get those items for ists. At the cost of some ists, you get more uniques. It's just like buying them with ists, and sometimes you even get items which have a hard time being bought. Not to mention it's more fun to MF with a barb, and once it's built you can only gain from it

Name me one item hell meph dropps that you cannot buy with that amount of ists. As said a thousand times, the profit for that few hundred extra mf is not worth 14 ists (in a realistic time that is).

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

It's just a build guys, no one said you have to make love to it...

We've all heard what you've had to say and we ALREADY know! This is NOT a budget build or for anyone who wants to be efficient with their items, READ THE DISCLAIMER AT THE TOP OF THE GUIDE !!!

 

[MYK]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

How fast does this build run baal?

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I'll post a video when I'm back near my desktop. Killing Baal is very fast and it can handle the minions well it's just that a friend is recommended for the minions.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

In the long run a tyrannicide is still better. Remember that barbs have no trouble surviving whatsoever, and they won't go into hit recovery, which sorcs may do, and that takes time. Also, some item may be hard to find for trade, so you can't get those items for ists. At the cost of some ists, you get more uniques. It's just like buying them with ists, and sometimes you even get items which have a hard time being bought. Not to mention it's more fun to MF with a barb, and once it's built you can only gain from it

You're completely correct Lumpor!