Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-ing!

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Besides alot of powerful builds require similarly or even more expensive items than six-isted swords... A two socket crown of ages and high level runewords come to mind...

2sox CoA's and high-end runewords are usually reccomended for use on PvP characters, not MF 'toons. most (but by no means all) people try to keep their MF 'toons as cheap as possible.

a 2sox CoA is far more re-useable on different kinds of toons than a 6-ist sword in any case. as for Ist'ing an IK helm &/or a skullders, for crying out loud, what's wrong with p-topaz? you don't even offer it as an option. it's only 1% MF difference.

a pvp character is where most people would expect to spend a lot of their e-budget, not on a build that is ostensibly being used to create e-wealth.

Doesn't anyone want to play around with all the wealth they've accrued in D2 over the past many years? And also, this is the BARBARIAN forum, please take the sorceress discussion elsewhere!!

most, not all but a large percentage, of people who have stupid amounts of D2 e-wealth tend to go into the PvP aspects of the game and spend their wealth there, not making yet another MF 'toon.

CSA, the sorceress comparisons are perfectly valid. a sorc or a skelly-necro are the two most popular start-of-a-ladder-season-wealth-gathering 'toons for a REASON. they can be made from scratch, kitted out with whatever you find along the way and they work. they work far more efficiently than this build at 1/1,000,000,000th the cost.

My problem is that I don't want to debate whether this is or is not a build at all, as some might. Just take it for what it is.

i do take it for what it is, it's a dupewhore monstrosity of the highest order.

if there was no dupeing (or botting incidently), do you seriously think anyone (yourself included) would ever build something like this?

you seem to have a penchant for ridiculously expensive, underpowered builds. what i saw of your guardian angel wearing uber smiter build seemed to confirm this for me.

if i want to make an oddball build, because i'm rich and bored, i'll try a level 30 Uber smiter, or a pacifist necro (after levelling in NM, only kills the monsters he needs to kill to complete quests, solo, in hell). how about an attempt at Irene The Infirm (google it) or other such whackery.

Perhaps I should stop commenting on most of the negative feedback I get

perhaps accepting that those of us posting negative feedback have a point. it might go a long way to averting some of the negative feedback you get.

again: this is the THIRD time you have posted this guide..... what does that tell the rest of us?

it tells me that you just don't listen to anyone else. no matter how constructive we are when we give it. a lot of the early criticism in your first posting of this guide was very constructive. from your attitude towards those of us who tried to be helpful, we kind of got sick of being nice about it pretty quickly from memory.

as most people on other forums or youtube know, about 80% of comments are dumb, racist, mean or just stupid. Maybe there's a little bit of that going on here... I've seen posts like this on some of the best guides on these forums. It's a shame..

i really don't think that 80% of the comments in this thread (and the other times you have posted this guide) fit the classification of "dumb, racist, mean or just stupid". most of them have been pretty well thought out and constructive.

contrast the differences between your guide and Mal's leaping GF/MF barb build. they are both ostensibly the same build. one gets positive feedback on the first attempt, the other is still getting flamed three postings later. gee, why is that i wonder? attitude of the writer to criticism is a major factor i'd wager.

just because someone doesn't agree with you doesn't make that person "dumb, racist, mean or just stupid". this is exactly an example of your attitude that pisses the rest of us right off.

the truly "dumb, racist, mean or just stupid" comments posted in "some of the best guides on these forums" tend to be one person posting it, not legions of us posting it. such posts also tend to be ignored by those who actually understand what they are talking about.

this forum is, to my mind, one of the three best D2 community forums on the interweb (the Barons Bazaar and the Amazon Basin being the other two). We are lucky that we have some of the most knowledgable D2 people on the planet posting here.

It does not need to "die"....

yes, yes it does. it needs to sink to the bottom of the forum list and never, ever, be seen or heard of again.

I have to admit though, the effort put into writing this guide really shows. The lay-out, structure, and format is one of the most appealing I've seen in guides.

ok, credit where it's due. i'll vouch this.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Although I can see why you're saying what you're saying I don't really agree with you. I get why you and others might not want to make the build; BUT... that doesn't mean it's an illegitimate build that must die...

Hardly anyone wants to make purely summoning druids but that doesn't make summoning Druid builds illegitimate or worthy of death... Other examples also apply...


Anyway what would you have me do, there aren't exactly alot of builds left that haven't already been made...

 

[KSoldier]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Stepping over the flames and arguments I'd like to post some constructive suggestions that is a bit more on-topic and might be useful. For players just starting a MF Barb, there is a type that is pretty useful and unique to this class, The "Looter-Barb." This may have been discussed earlier, sorry if I am re-addressing this.

If you are just starting this build, an easy way to get new gear and items is to use and abuse the "find item" skill. Since you may not yet be able to hold your own in a fight against monsters, scouring corpses may be a good way to get going.

Just jump around Cow games, Chaos runs, and Baal walks with whatever MF gear you have so far (a Heart Carver Rondel gives you +4 to find item) and horq away. Usually no one cares that you are taking advantage of their kills. Most players are usually leaving to a new game once all the monsters are dead. This leaves all the meat for you to enjoy. Yeah, it's looting. But why let it go to waste?

The best way to do this is to party up with some good friends. One of my Army buddies has a kickass Zon and we worked out a deal where he kills and I will MF the corpses. Any items from the initial kill are his, and any items from the "find item" are mine. In addition, any zon items are his and barb items go to me. Just remember, make sure that they dont freeze and shatter corpses or there won't be anything left to loot. Necros and Druids are bad news too since they kill the meat too.

It works well, and if you work in a team, you can put A LOT more into your MF gear and not worry about the kills.

 

[lumpor]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Mephiztophelez, while you have valid points, there is a thing I do not agree with you on.

if i want to make an oddball build, because i'm rich and bored, i'll try a level 30 Uber smiter, or a pacifist necro (after levelling in NM, only kills the monsters he needs to kill to complete quests, solo, in hell). how about an attempt at Irene The Infirm (google it) or other such whackery.

This may be your personal preference, but many people (like me for example) see no points in builds that limit themselves intentionally. I love non-cookiecutters, who have a fighting style that's weaker than other builds, but still try to make the weak style reach it's full potential.

"Limited builds", are builds who most often have a strong fighting style, but intentionally make it weaker, like the curse-less necromancer and such.

You may prefer limited builds, but many people (many whom are rich and bored) prefer non-cokiecutters over limited builds.

 

[jjscud]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

CSA, I've got a real question for you.

Looking over this, alot of discussion has been around a "budget sorc"

What happens when you put this build up against a well outfitted mf'ing sorc?

I looked at one of my blizz sorc that already had over 700% MF and figured that if I used weapon switch, I could keep 105 fcr (same tele frame rate) and and bump my mf on weapon switch up to about 800%, ~900% if I leave off all skillers. All that using only 6 ists (2 in ali-baba and 4 ist monach).

I'm trying to figure it out but I just don't see how the barb could keep up with a sorc that tele's as fast, kills faster, and carries similar amounts of MF, all for a lower cost.

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

What happens when you put this build up against a well outfitted mf'ing sorc?

assuming mephisto runs (killing only mephisto)

the sorc will kill faster, do more runs in a given period of time and carry slightly less %mf.

the barb will do less runs, carry more %MF and have two bites at the cherry via find item.

if we're talking area clears (or killing more than just the one monster), the sorc will BLAST through everything while the barb will be moving very, very slowly while his merc kills things one at a time.

I'm trying to figure it out but I just don't see how the barb could keep up with a sorc that tele's as fast, kills faster, and carries similar amounts of MF, all for a lower cost.

the barb simply cannot compete with the sorc in either cost or effectivness.

/end of story.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I disagree on the well equipped mf-sorc being more effective at mf-ing. The build is definitly more efficient. But it can definitely be argued that is IS NOT necessarily more effective. Especially if you're using find item alot or if you magic-find with a friend; which many people do.



It comes down to (with mephisto at least) more killing speed vs. more mf%. Personally I think the killing speed difference between the barb and the sorc if you have a merc. like the one I laid out is maginal and does not outweigh the benefits of the greater mf%. I mean, when you are mf-ing, making the game and teleporting to mephisto is like 80% of the time spent anyway. Killing takes very little time with either build. Why not have the extra mf%? Teleporting speed is the same with both builds.



As I was saying though, for horking or mf-ing with a partner this build definitely beats out even a perfect mf-sorc. For fast mephisto runs I think it comes down to a matter of preference. It also depends on how well you outfit you merc; if you can get near perfect items on him her kill at pretty much the same speed as a good mf sorc.




I've been mf-ing with a partner in chaos sanctuary and some high ilvl places like the pit and I definitely prefer to use my barb. rather than my sorc for that.


I have a really nice mf sorc. but I usually use my barb. even for Mephisto; I just seem to get better items more often...:nod:

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

so, just out of interest, how long would it take this build to do, ohh, say for the sake of argument, Hell Cows?

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Are you kidding?:wink:


In answer to your question, it would take forever; I can personally guarantee that. You would probably want to give your merc something more area effect oriented like ebotd or something. Still, without a partner or other players.. that would take about half an hour probably lol.. I wouldn't advise it...:crazyeyes:



In my experience it's not too hard to find someone to mf with, even strangers. After all, that's what Diablo is all about! (playing with other people)


That said, if you did hell cows with an mf sorc and horked behind her, the two of you could rack up some serious booty in a very short amount of time. This would be sweet for collecting midrange uniques or more importantly rare helms, amulets etc..



Apart from councilmen and a couple other creatures, I wouldn't recommend horking alone with this build. However, if you want my advice, horking is meant to be done with AT LEAST one other buddy.

 

[sequoia]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Didn't people show you the graphs how magic finding percentages approach an asymptote after ~300%, which makes the extra MF suffer from huge diminishing returns?

It's just not efficient.

The most efficient MF'ers are chars that stack 250-400 MF and run multiple areas very very quickly.

I can't believe this thread is still going...

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

This build is mainly for horking and mephisto, mf-ing in multiple areas would most likely be with a partner and the barb has the tele-speed to keep up.

That's why this thread is still going...

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

Didn't people show you the graphs how magic finding percentages approach an asymptote after ~300%, which makes the extra MF suffer from huge diminishing returns?

yes, we have pointed out the diminishing returns on set/rare/unique items stemming from >300'ish%mf.

no, CSA doesn't care.

It's just not efficient.

yes, we have pointed this out, numerous times.

no, CSA doesn't care.

The most efficient MF'ers are chars that stack 250-400 MF and run multiple areas very very quickly.

yes, i agree with you, but once again:

no, CSA doesn't care.

I can't believe this thread is still going...

me neither. it dropped off the front page of the barb forums for a while there until someone resurrected it.

This build is mainly for horking and mephisto, mf-ing in multiple areas would most likely be with a partner and the barb has the tele-speed to keep up.

so why don't you say somewhere in your guide that this is a build best used horking along behind a partner?

if we're talking about playing with a partner, i rekon i could build a hork'barb that's every bit as effective as this one for 1/100'th the cost.

(lemme think:
hat: tarnhelm, shako if rich, or anything with some nice MF/GF on it socket with ptopaz
ammy: anything with %mf on it, tele charges a bonus
armour: wealth in low reqs armour or a 4x ptopaz dusk shroud
gloves: chancies
belt: goldwrap
rings: hmm, maybe a dwarfstar and something with mf on?
boots: trav's
weps: 2x Ali Baba's, i'd socky 'em with Lems myself, but feel free to use Ist's or MF jools if that takes your fancy

there you go, oodles of MF for less than the cost of ONE of your weapons)

you make it out to be the ultimate in MF toons. when it clearly isn't.

the ultimate mf toon can go anywhere, solo, kill everything quickly and carry a decent MF%. builds that come to mind are: skelly'necs (completely gear independent), orb-hybrid sorks, straight blizz sorks and (gasp) well geared hammerdins.

That's why this thread is still going...

no CSA, this thread is still going because of your obstreperousness. no other reason.

read back through this thread CSA (and the two other times you posted it). how many of the posts are actually in praise of your build? not very many)

This build strives to be just as fast and efficient as a Sorceress at magic finding but also to utilize massive magic find bonuses without having to switch items alot or sacrifice killing power.

when will you realise that this build IS NOT as fast or efficient as a sork?

it just ISN'T. never will be.

sheesh.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

That said, if you did hell cows with an mf sorc and horked behind her, the two of you could rack up some serious booty in a very short amount of time. This would be sweet for collecting midrange uniques or more importantly rare helms, amulets etc..

Or if you had your own mf sorc you could both run hell cows in your own games and earn twice the amount of items vs. ~ 1.5 with the horker (maybe less if some of the bodies shatter)

It is an ok Idea that doesn't achieve anything, but some bored rich people on dupe.net might find interesting. The problem is the claim of optimal, it is [highlight]NOT[/highlight] optimal, it is Maximising MF at the cost of everything else.

In my mind Optimal would be a balancing of the following options:

[highlight]MF[/highlight] (check this guide maximises it)
[highlight]Speed[/highlight] (dubious - maybe ok for running meph)
[highlight]Can find all items[/highlight] (fail, cannot run alvl85 areas by itself)
[highlight]Cost[/highlight] (mega fail)
[highlight]Normal vs. Rare vs. Socketed - some of these other items are useful to find[/highlight] (fail, this build can realistically only run meph and with all the MF that is loaded on will only really find uniques/sets and the odd rare / magic item)
[highlight]fun[/highlight] (probably not, running the same target over and over is not all that fun)
[highlight]realm down[/highlight] (fail, this character can only run meph so it would have to pause in each game for about 5 minutes in order to run meph over and over)

what this means in a nutshell is that this barb can run meph, and might be equal or slightly better than a budget mf sorc, but it is far from optimal for MF.


Edit: there are other things that you could use when optimising, but I just wanted to show some of the things that need to be optimised for.

Edit2: Another point I wanted to get across (but forgot) was that Meph is not really that good a target for someone with that many Ists. He can't drop that many items of use (except early in your mf career) and you would be better of running WS K - more items, socketables, much more interesting etc.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

sigh i'm not gonna explain this again, it does not max mf at the "expense of everything else" killing speed almost the same, tele speed the same, area effect killing way down, that's the truth.

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

sigh i'm not gonna explain this again, it does not max mf at the "expense of everything else" killing speed almost the same, tele speed the same, area effect killing way down, that's the truth.

killing speed is NOT the same. you admitted that on the last page.

This build is mainly for horking and mephisto, mf-ing in multiple areas would most likely be with a partner and the barb has the tele-speed to keep up.

so, just out of interest, how long would it take this build to do, ohh, say for the sake of argument, Hell Cows?

Are you kidding?


In answer to your question, it would take forever; I can personally guarantee that. You would probably want to give your merc something more area effect oriented like ebotd or something. Still, without a partner or other players.. that would take about half an hour probably lol.. I wouldn't advise it...

i still do not see the point of a build that can only run mephisto. i really and truly dont.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

sigh i'm not gonna explain this again, it does not max mf at the "expense of everything else" killing speed almost the same, tele speed the same, area effect killing way down, that's the truth.

It Maxes MF, Increases run time slighty (probably not noticeably) at the expense of everything else (cost, ability to run other areas etc.).

If I was going to use that many Ists on a character I would want one that could run the Alvl 85's (So I can get ALL the items in the game, plus have a good chance for socketables) not a character that can only run Meph for Arachnid Mesh.

Another problem with being able to run ONLY meph is that this run takes ~ 30 seconds. How would you avoid relm down? Most mf characters would avoid this by doing a variety of runs (Mehp, Baal) what does this character do? Just sit in the game for 4:30 to avoid being realmed?

For these reasons I don't see how this Barb could be anything other than a sub-optimal MFer.

I still do not see the point of a build that can only run mephisto. i really and truly dont.

I do see the point of a build that can only run Meph, but only as a first 'get rich quick character' I.E a blizz sorc wearing Topazed armour.

I can also see the point of an MF barb, I have had a few myself. I used them for running the act 5 Super Uniques (thresh, eldridch, shenk and pindle) he was good for this purpose as I could use find item on these targets.

All this barb is going to do is to follow another character 'horking' their kills or running meph for very slighty better drops than a blizz sorc at half the cost (the blizz sorc can also run the ancient tunnels)

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I do see the point of a build that can only run Meph, but only as a first 'get rich quick character' I.E a blizz sorc wearing Topazed armour.

i built such a sorc during ladder season three, used it for less than a week, then gave it up as an exceedingly boring joke. endless mephisto runs are just a zzzzzzzzz way of spending my bnet time imho. i can think of much better and more reliable methods of generating e-wealth.

i also find this build highly amusing because the vast bulk of my e-wealth has come from running Nihlathak with a 0%MF kick/trap hybrid'sin. i found lots of d-keys and tons of nice socketable gear (swish pally shields most noteably) from the minions around Nihlathak. during that ladder season in particular, quality socketable gear was commanding fabulous prices (a 4os/14ed/+3 GMB fetched me four nice 30+ lifer GC's for my ww/trap'sin in one memorable trade). i built up e-wealth pretty rapidly and more than paid for the 'cost' of my 'sin in about five hours worth of runs. I'm STILL pgem rolling my way through all the GC's Nihlathak coughed up.

my other sure-fire method of generating e-wealth was through goldfinding then gambling circlets and rings.

i've had friends build horker barbs. me and one mate used to run hell cows, me with a 200fcr pvp fire sork (almost no MF) and oldmate with his horker barb coming along behind me. between us we found a bunch of nice charms and several quality uniques. not to mention the sheer quantity of 4os Monarchs, eth elite polearms, socketable armours and beserker axes (15ed 5os 'zerks commanded a very pretty pixel or two at the time), all of which were very easy to trade off quickly.

it's not that i can't see the point of a horker barb. but i really don't see the point in spending up this kind of e-wealth on one. they are just as effective with ptopaz helms and ali-baba's as they can with ist'ed helms and six-ist swords.

i suppose that's my major beef with this guide. it's the "do it my way or suck" way it's written and there is no secondary alternative to much of the equipment suggested (not to mention i rekon i could find much better uses for 2x Bahamuts Ring of the Apprentice, not exactly easy items to come by). to then go and describe it as being "optimal" mf'ing is just plain wrong.

"optimal" mf'ing is a balance between killing speed over an area and the amount of mf you carry. mf'ing is a pure numbers game. to increase your chances of getting something good to drop, increase the number of drop chances you generate. eg: kill lots and lots of monsters, quickly.

that's where this build truly fails.

 

[callsignapollo]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

It's not me being dense here it's you, i didn't say same killing speed i said almost same " " and this build is not just for mephisto check the guide at the top sigh*

 

[mephiztophelez]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

It's not me being dense here it's you.

why don't you address the concerns raised rather than resort to base insults? you have yet to even acknowledge that anyone else has so much as a valid point.

i didn't say same killing speed i said almost same " " *

and i say again: the killing speed of this build is VASTLY inferior to the killing speed of a basic tals set MF sorc. this has been proven beyond any doubt by several posters in this thread who timed you barbs performance against their own MF sorc's performance.

while your builds speed against one target might be acceptable, it's speed against mobs is staggeringly inferior. you even admitted this when i asked about hell cows.

and this build is not just for mephisto check the guide at the top sigh*

i HAVE read the "guide". i even re-read it a couple of times. i don't see anything in there about MF'ing with a partner to just be a hork barb. all i see in there is how wonderful this build is at running mephisto.

instead of simply accusing those who disagree with you of being "dense" or other such unfounded insults (and you have tossed plenty in my direction), why can't you so much as accept that others have a valid point?

as for me, i cannot be bothered anymore, i can only hope that no-one else posts in this thread and it drops to the bottom of the list with least delay.

 

[Jcakes1]

Re: Magic Finding Barbarian: THE TYRANNICIDES: v3* An Expensive Build for Optimal MF-

I fail to see this build running anyone other than Andy and Meph.
I guess Pindle is possible but it would take a lot longer than a blizz sorc (or even a WW barb).

Another point on Optimal, what sort of payback period does this Barb have, how many Meph (or whatever) runs would you need to do to get back the value of all those Ists (and runewords).